@Tpod

Only going to comment on No 10

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10. The church, from what I understand does a huge amount of good in society, to help the vulnerable & needy & despite the impression give by the media is very non-discriminatory. Nearly all negative stuff relates to so called gay rights. The church reaches out to drug addicts, prostitute, down & outs & children; Oh wait there not allowed to help so many children now because of a gay ‘rites’ issues i.e. catholic adoption agencies closing remember that one, but that's another story.

I suppose it does some good but it also does a lot of harm too, pedophile clergymen, bullying clergymen, the Vatican with more than enough wealth and money to do far more good but doesn't and prefers to keep it all locked up only for use by the elite few...

It's got sod all to do with "gay rights" that a very careful eye is kept on anything to do with helping children, it's the pedophiles and child abusers in the religious systems that are to blame for that not "gay rights", gawd... how do you make these things up and do actually believe what your saying...

I find it astounding in this day and age that anyone takes any religion seriously and claims to be intelligent. What is religion, nothing but myths and fairytails made up by our ancestors in less enlightened times to try and allay their fears and explain a wolrd and universe they could not understand nor comprehend properly....

There are no gods or god, there is no heaven or hell, there are only humans who make up crazy ideologies in a desperate hope that when their lives end here on earth they will somehow be magically whisked off to some eternal life somewhere up in the sky or wherever... afraid they're in for one hell of a big disappointment when they gasp their last breath...

Strange how you don't see animals building churches or praying, they build their own homes just like us but I'd don't recall seeing anyone of them building a church or holding a prayer meeting, think they must know more about life than some humans do...

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"The Church" is just a body of people who decided they're of consequence under the guise of it being in Gods name. Where do you think "the church" gets its money to help people from? That's right, the people. And they dont hand out all of what theyre given by the people, they keep their hand in the till as well. Theyre no different to any other organisations setup to help people in need.... well apart from their belief theyre different.

Now as for the original question, I really dont see the problem in spending a few dollars to correct an error. Things should have been equal in the first place or they wouldnt have to fix it now.

@fishy_fis

Point 1, the church through it's many missionary/aid organisations does the most to ease suffering in the world out of any other organisation. The church is the only group that exists primarily for the benefit of it's non-members by sharing the good news of Jesus Christ or by easing suffering practically. Where do you think our education/social welfare system originated; church schools and church missions.

Point 2, there is no error that needs correcting. The only error is to think that marriage can be redefined without dire consequences for our society. Supporting the gay rights agenda and destroying the nuclear family seem to be mutually inclusive ideals for a minority of so called 'progressives'. Not that this should be seen as a gay rights issue with homosexuals already having the option of Civil Partnerships!

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@Franko

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I find it astounding in this day and age that anyone takes any religion seriously and claims to be intelligent.

Many scientists and academics are Christians. Science and the natural world point to intelligent design.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Sharing the good news, or harassing people with thier beliefs? It's a perspective thing. I cant think of any other organisation that comes to your door to try to increase it membership. There's some clowns that have been trying to "share the good news" to my neighbors for months. When the neighbour isnt home, they'll camp on the neighbors front yard until they come home, not to mention the advertising material they leave (despite being told not to). This "sharing" would be construed as harassment by anybody else.
The majority of horrible things in this world are carried out, "In Gods Name", ignoring all sense of normalcy and decency at times because of it.

And yes, excluding people the right to marry because of thier chemistry is a mistake. One that has existed for hundreds of years. Thankfully most people are a little more enlightened these days and as such arent as easily swayed by the threat of going to hell.
The world progresses, definitions change.
I have no qualm with people for being religious, but have major issues with churches.
To paraphrase, Jesus himself said something along the lines of, "You'll find me not in bricks or mortar, but in yourself".

Last edited by fishy_fis on 29-Mar-2012 at 08:05 AM.
Last edited by fishy_fis on 29-Mar-2012 at 08:01 AM.

@BigD

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BigD wrote: @Franko Many scientists and academics are Christians. Science and the natural world point to intelligent design.

I know that and that's the type of people I find al the more unbelievably strange, they clearly have the ability for very rational thought and yet manage at the same time to prove themselves to be totally irrational by believing in religion, gawds and all that malarky...

Often makes me question their scientific results and theories when it turns out they believe in fairy tales too...

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@Franko

Ive noticed that the church is now pretty quick to bring up its scientists these days. The main reason being of course though that these "scientists" selectively chose thier work so as not to be able to disprove anything the church has said beforehand.
I know a guy who's fairly over the top religious who chose science as his profession and the amount of times he brings up "research X" supporting his faith is somewhat amusing. It's as clear as day that the "research" he does is to search for such instances. If he cant support his faith with his work he wont do the work and instead looks esewhere.

Given time, effort and an inclination Im sure I could make it hard to disprove that Im a descendant of an armadillo. This is the sort o of "science" the church will typically encourage :)

Last edited by fishy_fis on 29-Mar-2012 at 09:38 AM.

@fishy_fis

Just like you said about "religious" folk coming to your front door announced and trying to push their views & beliefs on you (not to mention the junk leaflets), when you politely tell them your not interested they still some back time and time again despite you making it clear for them not to...

Thing is if you went to their church front door and did the same to them with your beliefs against religion and stuck leaflets through their front door, you would pretty soon have the police at you front door too cautioning you for harassment or being charged under the ludicrous blasphemy laws...

That begs the question, if religious people can have laws protecting them from anyone daring to say anything about their beliefs then where are the equivalent laws to protect those of us whom hold the exact opposite beliefs ???

I have no problem with folk choosing to believe in religion for themselves, the problem I have is when they try to impose it on me & others who do not share those beliefs. Especially so when they are protected by laws that make it an offence for those they try to impose it on not to be able to counter those beliefs without fear of prosecution...

Any law that has any religious connotations in it, I'm happy to say does not apply to me and I would not recognise nor allow them too. The law should be equal for all members of society and as long as it's not equal then to me those laws aren't worth the paper they are written on...

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@Tpod

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A recent census was conducted in 2005, it was discovered that only 6.3 % of the population, some 3.2 million, were regular churchgoers

Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that. We should make Sunday a working day of the week and ban Christmas. Clearly only a small minority of people follow these unimportant (to me and therefore everyone that isn't a minority) events and the closing of shops and offices on these days costs untold billions of pounds and therefore is a waste of taxpayers money.

I'm glad we agree


Plus the bonus ball.

We should close all the churches, (since they get tax and rent rebates for being places of religion) then give the land they once occupied to some full tax paying businesses. This will also mean people wont be able to get married in them, thereby separating the act of marriage from religion, freeing any moral butthurt (pun intended) from these kooky religious nuts over the sanctity!

It's a win win for everyone!

(Apart from the minorities, but we've already established they don't have the same importance as us "normal" people.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 29-Mar-2012 at 08:29 PM.
Last edited by SpaceDruid on 29-Mar-2012 at 08:23 PM.

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@SpaceDruid

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We should make Sunday a working day of the week and ban Christmas.

For a lot of people Sunday is just another working day. I do not just mean the emergency services, unless of course you consider your local pub to be an emergency service provider. As for Christmas, people have been celebrating the winter solstice since long before the advent of christianity, although I do remember seeing a nice nativity scene a few years ago, with the baby in the manger, surrounded by all the animals, shepherds, magi, etc. and Santa with his reindeer flying overhead, narrowly missing the star.

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@BigD

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Many scientists and academics are Christians. Science and the natural world point to intelligent design.

What sort of engineer puts a playground and a waste dump in the same spot?! In reality it points to unintelligent design.

@SpaceDruid

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Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that. We should make Sunday a working day of the week and ban Christmas. Clearly only a small minority of people follow these unimportant (to me and therefore everyone that isn't a minority) events and the closing of shops and offices on these days costs untold billions of pounds and therefore is a waste of taxpayers money.

Great point using the same logic as those that wish to not support 5% of citizens because they're the minority afterall.

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We should close all the churches, (since they get tax and rent rebates for being places of religion) then give the land they once occupied to some full tax paying businesses

One of the points was the 3.7Million that changing marriage to include two same sexed partners would cost. I wonder what the cost is to the government to give property tax free and allow the religious business collect cash but not tax that either. I bet far more expensive!

@Nimrod

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Basically what you are saying is that we should all be forced to live as "Christians" regardless of our own beliefs because only "Christians" have any understanding of the principles of truth, justice, liberty, love etc.

You live in a christian country, with christian laws, and hence a christain society.

Personal belief is an entitlement under that very same christian society, as well as free speech.
The reason there are so many non-christian people in this country, is that they want the benefit of living in such a society, and they should have the choice to do so if they wish. That doesn't mean they have to change their beliefs, or religious faith to do so.

Oh! and by the way if I went to a foreign country, I would expect to live by their laws, and their society's behaviour, but regardless of my beliefs, I would still live by christian values because that was the society I grew up in.

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@Swoop

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Swoop wrote: @Nimrod You live in a christian country, with christian laws, and hence a christain society. Personal belief is an entitlement under that very same christian society, as well as free speech. The reason there are so many non-christian people in this country, is that they want the benefit of living in such a society, and they should have the choice to do so if they wish. That doesn't mean they have to change their beliefs, or religious faith to do so. Oh! and by the way if I went to a foreign country, I would expect to live by their laws, and their society's behaviour, but regardless of my beliefs, I would still live by christian values because that was the society I grew up in.

What utter twaddle...

I was born and bred in this country and it's not a "christian" nor any other religion country...

You are not born with religion, it is only imposed on you if choose or allow it to be, you are born a human being not a religious figure and if some idiots somewhere along the line decided to may up laws that have a religious base to them, then sorry mate but those laws don't apply to those of us who don't recognise their made up laws based upon made up religious fables...

The reason that there is so many non religious people in this country is not as you claim "they want to benefit" from it, it's simply a fact that they are born here and aren't dumb enough to believe in fairy tales and ancient nonsense called religion which was made up by our ancestors in a time when people well less educated and enlightened about the world and life...

Why should anyone born in this country have to live their lives based on other peoples crackpot religious beliefs, it's our country just as much as the religious fanatics...

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@SpaceDruid

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(Apart from the minorities, but we've already established they don't have the same importance as us "normal" people.

You're off topic, intentionally insulting and failing to grasp the simple truth that the polls are showing that it is your viewpoint that is the minority viewpoint on redefining marriage. Around 70% of the British public are happy with the definition as it is.

Telegraph: Poll suggesys 70% of people oppose a redefinition of marriage

This includes a wide range of people not just people who characterise themselves as people of faith! In fact many people value marriage and its positive impact on society over many decades and centuries. The selfish wants and desires of a vociferous minority should not destroy an important institution. This out of control 'gay rights' agenda seems less about equality (in which case other groups other than homosexuals would be allowed to pose a counter argument in the Governments consultation) but instead the intentional and undemocratic attempt at destroying the traditional 'family unit' itself. For the good of society this should not be allowed to happen. The long term loving homosexual partnerships that are being wheeled across or TV screens recently are minority situations within the homosexual minority group at large! There are only 6,000 Civil Partnerships a year!! This aggressive homosexual/liberal lobby (not all homosexuals are in this group and a lot think marriage should be kept for heterosexuals) should not be allowed to break down and destroy this building block of society because they've had a strop about their rights!! The European Court of Human Rights has already ruled that 'Gay Marriage' is NOT a human right!

Telegraph: Gay Marriage is not a human right
Daily Mail: Homosexual marriage is not a human right says Strasbourg

More worryingly the above article points out that if legalised into UK law the Government would not be able to protect churches from being litigated against if they refuse to carry out homosexual marriage services in their buildings! Does this sound like a free and tolerant society to you?

Last edited by BigD on 30-Mar-2012 at 08:42 PM.

_________________
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John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @SpaceDruid Quote: (Apart from the minorities, but we've already established they don't have the same importance as us "normal" people. You're off topic, intentionally insulting and failing to grasp the simple truth that the polls are showing that it is your viewpoint that is the minority viewpoint on redefining marriage. Around 70% of the British public are happy with the definition as it is. Telegraph: Poll suggesys 70% of people oppose a redefinition of marriage

Oh well... if it's in the Telegraph it must be true then...

I mean the Telegraph is the voice of Britain after all and accurately reflects the views of this nation as a whole and such a publication would never dream of being biased or twisting the truth to reflect it's own crackpot views of Britain and it's people...

Are you for real !!!

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@Franko

Do you base any of your cherished and highly opinionated views on anything over than the voices in your head? Do you read? Do you discuss these issues with you friends? If so share some facts instead of spouting your own personal agenda!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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You're off topic, intentionally insulting

I'm using the same logic you and the thread starter have used to justify your beliefs on this subject. If you find this insulting, then congratulations, you now know what it feels like to be us listening to you!

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Around 70% of the British public are happy with the definition as it is.

What you meant to write was "Around 70% of the readership of a right wing conservative and sensationalist media source when asked a leading question are happy with the definition as it is."

All you need are some quotes from Faux News and you'll complete the set!

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Do you base any of your cherished and highly opinionated views on anything over than the voices in your head?

Is that the same as listening to your imaginary friend/god in which you base all your morals and ideals on? You're kinda on shaky ground to be talking about voices in heads...

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 30-Mar-2012 at 09:30 PM.

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@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Franko Do you base any of your cherished and highly opinionated views on anything over than the voices in your head? Do you read? Do you discuss these issues with you friends? If so share some facts instead of spouting your own personal agenda!

Yes my view are cherished and very highly opinionated but unlike you they are my own views formed from finding out facts for myself and double checking them and not based on some twaddle I read in the Telegraph...

You may be in such a sad state to be unable to form your own views and opinions on matters and have to rely on what you read in the Telegraph to pass of as being your own views and opinions, sorry but I can't help you with self imposed ignorance...

PS: I have no "agenda" unlike yourself who needs polls to try and back up everything he says to push his own highly biased & personal agenda...

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@BigD

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In fact many people value marriage and its positive impact on society over many decades and centuries.

This statement is absolutely true, however it has nothing to do with the religion of your choice. People of other faiths have been marrying since long before the christian myths started being touted around the Roman Empire as a way of keeping the plebs docile. Do you honestly believe that my marriage is somehow invalid because my wife and I married in a registry office and made no reference to the invisible skybeard of your choice?
Your frequent assertion that this represents an attack on the stability of my marriage has no basis in fact. The contents of somebody elses marriage bed has no influence on the relationship between my wife and myself, and never will until some interfering individual tries to make homosexuality compulsory, and despite your scaremongering that is not going to happen.

Quote:

More worryingly the above article points out that if legalised into UK law the Government would not be able to protect churches from being litigated against if they refuse to carry out homosexual marriage services in their buildings! Does this sound like a free and tolerant society to you?

The Government are also unable to protect the local golf club from being litigated against if they refuse to allow members to play football on the greens. All the churches need to do to mount a successful defence in a court of law is to show that the marriage services are offered to members only, and that there is a clearly stated and enforced rule against homosexuality. Of course it would be a bit silly for an openly gay priest to refuse to perform a marriiage service for a same gender couple, but that is not my problem.

As to the claims made by those bastions of altruism and generosity, Articles 9 and 12 of the human rights legislation do offer certain guarantees.
Art 9: "Freedom of thought, conscience and religion"
Art 12: "Right to marry"
Article 9 means that you are allowed to believe in your personal deity, but must respect my right not to, which includes not trying to force me to act according to your invisible friends demands, and not implying that anybody not slavishly following your demands is somehow morally deficient.
Article 12 gives people the right to marry. Not blacks, whites, browns, yellows, or pink with purple polka dots. Not Jews, Hindus, Christians, Moslems, or Jedi knights. Not left wing, right wing, authoritarian or libertarian. Not heterosexual, homosexual, transsexual, or asexual. Just people, regardless of race, colour, creed, sexual orientation, political ideology, or criminal history.

If a transsexual man, who used to be a woman, wanted to marry a transsexual woman who used to be a man, would they be able to marry in church?


Quote:

@Franko Do you base any of your cherished and highly opinionated views on anything over than the voices in your head? Do you read? Do you discuss these issues with you friends? If so share some facts instead of spouting your own personal agenda!

I am going to throw your own question straight back to you. What logical point can you use to prove that your holy book is in any way more holy than the holy book touted by any other followers of a different holy book, bearing in mind that all holy books claim to be the one true holy book. Or is your righteousness simply self-righteousness and are you just "holier than thou"

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