@RodTerl
ps. I like your idea of the executable datatype :) Neato

@itix

Well I don't know anything about file handlers and how they work.
But if it was device and it was passed in and out whit SendIO(), DoIO(), it most likely cause some problems, I mean if handled by different task or process.
I think It's pretty easy to implement some sort of memory leek that way.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2012 at 12:04 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Jul-2012 at 12:03 AM.

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@KimmoK

I do agree that R&D costs can be prohibitive, but honestly, development doesn't have to be expensive. It is about being resourceful.

And AmigaOS does let you do things in a different way, but does it let you do anything other than what Aros can do?

I don't think everything has to be bleeding edge, but it has to at least be fully functional. And if it isn't bleeding edge, it should be priced accordingly.

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: @Cod3r "but the good old Amiga OS (and I do emphasize OLD) is more expensive than Micro$oft high-end desktop OS's at retail." Yes, but when we are a small niche, some R&D costs need to be filled, what other can we do? More open sourcing OS parts? Perhaps. >Sure, we can compare to Lamborghini or Aston Martin, but those brands at least have the value to back up their prices. Amiga doesn't. AmigaOS likes let you do things in different way. I prefer the AOS/MOS way over any other. But sure that's just wery small selling point, when there's a lot of things our niche can not fully handle now.. btw, you can help on that! >Imagine me selling you a brand-new luxury car at a price higher than a Bentley, but it doesn't have air conditioning, and the radio works sometimes (i.e. "it's still in development") and it runs with a motorcycle engine. my SAM system.... it's like original VW beetle with double weber carburettors and 2000cc cylinders. It is not able to pull the heavies loads on a trailer, but from 0 to 60mph it accelerates faster than any other car (including 4 wheel drive lamborgini ones), it can enter and exit corners very nicely and I have total control of how it behaves (no traction control etc driving aids on my way) it gives a lot enjoyment, etc...

@xe54

Okay.. lets see if I can put words together that make sense of the stuff Ive been trying to think up over the last 20-30 years 8}

There is a problem between computers and brains. the main problem is the humans who firstly demand that the computer has to be perfect at all times, that is, here is a given bit sequence, that bit sequence is the minimum length to represent a given item of information, and will always represent that item.

This is an increadibly self centric Western Caucasian UK American view of what is in the world.

The first big problem you have with thinking in massively parralel ways, is how to code the data representation so that what is in the computer, only has a representation in the human world, once it has been processed by a digital to human reality translator.

Currently, you still have to use the translator, there has only been one or two machines in which the bit value of the memory store has been directly and immediately available to the human user, and that is the CRT memory store in Baby.

If you have to use a translator, why not make the data in the machine, easier for the machine to use. This also implies that your compilers now have to be coded with the Locale library, so that their name structures are not human language dependant. that is, you can have one person live cooperatively coding in left to right English, another in Right to left Arabic, another in top to bottom Kanji, and another in spiral heiroglyph, simultaneously, and the resultant representation code in teh computer will be exactly the same, because thats what the translation functions will limit the options to.

Is a compiler simpler or more complex than a human language parser, given that English parsers were used in 1980s text adventures, understanding verbs, nouns and complex sub structures.

By the way. If you use the database method, you can use a single neuron model per single thread, to implement a neural net of unlimited size and complexity. Having more threads available allows you to have more neurons processed in paralel, the update rate is related to how many times you can scan through all the synapses in the database per unit time, assuming you use the idea of a full scan is a quantum of update. You can trade between speed and complexity directly.

A small neural net updating rapidly can emulate a larger neural net updating more slowly. Processing requirements increase linearly with neural net size, but processing ability of the neural net increases exponentially.

Google X recently announced a billion synapse neural net that took only a week to teach itself to recognise cats, by being fed YouTube images.

Thats faster than me. 8)

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@pavlor

You're right. I shouldn't be so harsh on a 1994 OS. But if I had a real ST, I would have been really p*ssed off to find that my new retail-purchased Atari OS made my machine so slow that it would be useless

MultiTOS crippled a 68k machine running at 74mhz. Atari never even made such a thing. I'd hate to see it run on the Atari hardware that was present at the time of its release.

I'll check out MiNT in my free time (Ha! I no longer have any LOL!), but it really isn't my priority right now, as i'm working on some solutions for the Amiga platform.

Not trying to knock Atari, as obviously, you do have some affinity for it. But it isn't my cup of tea

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @Cod3r Quote: It did nothing to improve anything. No wonder Atari stopped making computers... MultiTOS (released in 1993) was was big step forward in comparison to previous versions of TOS (preemptive multitasking, updated UI etc.). One can´t judge that hard 19 years old OS. Quote: Maybe MiNT would be better, but I could not find a "load and go" solution anywhere on the net. I have similar experience. However, there is link to current MiNT (SpareMiNT distribution): http://sparemint.org/sparemint/download.html Maybe Atari users could help you with installation (links to user forums): http://www.atari-forum.com/ http://www.atariage.com/ Quote: Other than the RAM, there probably isn't much difference between a 520ST and the 1040ST, right? They are the same (1040ST has 1 MB RAM, 520 only 512 kB, FM letters after ST mean it has also integrated floppy drive and TV modulator - I have such 520STFM version).

@xe54

Quote:

If the Amiga wishes to be truly NG, these are the types of ideas that it takes.

Therein lies the entire problem...

I don't believe anyone has asked the Amiga what it wishes to be, who knows maybe it's happy enough plodding along as it is...

Reckon we should take a leaf out of Commodores book from the early 80's and "ask the computers" to let them decide, as these videos show...

Ask The Computer 1...

Ask The Computer 2...

Cynical, jaded... maybe in some folks views but honestly having grown up in a world where we used to have innovation, choice and new things to amaze us with and now it's a wold where "innovation" has been replaced with "upgrades", choice is a forgotten word and "new things to amaze us with" is sadly a thing of the past, then perhaps for me saddened would be a more appropriate word to use...

Thankfully I grew up in a time where we still had lot's of things that never existed for the consumer before and were entirely new innovative and amazing, Home Computers, VCRs, Electronic Calculators, Walkmans, CD Players, Microwave ovens, heck even the Rubiks Cube & the Soda Stream, to name but a few...

Whereas for at least the past 15 years there has been nothing new and unheard of before like that for the consumer and it's all just been more of the same tarted up in slimline designer cases, faster with better gfx and not one genuine brand new and truly innovative or exciting thing in sight and sadly that's the way it looks like it going to stay... shame really...

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@billt

Another user, wawa, has already gone about the licensing change proposal with the Aros camp.

The whole concept of open source is a mix of a blessing and a curse.

In some ways, it is great, because great things can be done with little financial expense. But in other ways, it sucks because there is no central authority to deal with regarding a piece of open source software.

Quote:

billt wrote: @Cod3r Quote: They would REALLY have to ask everyone who ever contributed? If so, that's highly unlikely and improbable. Indeed, improbable. But you can't just change license on something created by someone else, that's their code to decide on and no one else's. Unless the original license allows it (multi-licensed, or something like GPL 2 or later, or using a license that is GPL compatible, etc). And what if a contributor died since then? You still don't have right to change his code license, but who do you ask? If not explicitly stated in the will, who does the rights to that code transfer to, and how do we find that out to ask them? The only answer to this problem is to remove and replace code that you either do not get an answer about or get a no answer about license change. And like you said, that could potentially be a huge undertaking. But if enough AROS contributors agree then perhaps the redo amount can be minimized to a reasonable amount. I'm not sure where the mentioned license discussion lives, I'm curious to see what exactly they are talking about.

Last edited by Cod3r on 20-Jul-2012 at 01:44 AM.

@adrianbrowne

If things work out as the initial parties are planning, it will be great. If I can get all the parties to get together, other than contributing to the vision, my job will be done.

They are all brilliant and together, Amiga will get a new direction, without parting with its legacy.

I wish I could say more, but i'm really just a small part of it. Other parties are the major players, so I can't say what's on their plate, if you know what I mean.

Quote:

adrianbrowne wrote: @Cod3r Precisely my thinking.The community is small enough without it being further fractured.If people put their heads together and put aside egos a viable amiga system could be built.Their is certainly enough amiga passion and emotion in the community.Im very interested to see what you are planning and hope you can supply more info as to what your plans are later.

@mbrantley

I'll tell you what, lets substitute "shameful" for "unfortunate"-That is a better word choice. I am insinuating nothing about the OS4 development team.

As a programmer, I know that we don't make the decisions. Management does, so I would never blame the actual coders for anything.

For example, do you think Micro$oft's developers really want to make a bloated, inefficient OS? Of course not. They use the tools that they are required to, per the orders of management.

And as an AmigaOne X1000 owner, obviously, you love and stand by your purchase. If I spent my hard-earned cash on one, I would too.

Quote:

mbrantley wrote: @Cod3r Quote: find it shameful that such a machine (regardless of its "real world" potential) isn't supported fully by the OS. One should not have to run Linux to get a taste of of what an Amiga can do. Shameful is an awfully unfortunate choice in words unless you really think the members of the OS4 development team are deceitful or incompetent. I think they are neither -- just taxed for resources, namely money and manpower. The one resource they have plenty of is time, which is a good thing because without the other two things development does take a long time. A better choice of words than shameful might have been unfortunate. One might say it is unfortunate that the software development is lagging behind the hardware in some key respects. Just my view -- I'm not wanting to put words into your mouth. And you know what? I think it's nice we have some hardware we can grow into and that will challenge and enable development of new features in the software. Having it the other way around might be more frustrating. But I'm not particularly frustrated either. I'm enjoying my next-generation AmigaOS machines (two Sam440-based computers and a new X1000) and frankly am having a ball with the newest one. I eagerly anticipate the developments to come and don't doubt that they are coming but also have my eyes open about how long these things take. Nothing shameful, nothing to be ashamed of. Everybody's working hard, many without compensation of any sort really. Some people here think it's all lunacy, but it's great fun to me. I've been a fan of this operating system since 1985 and a user of it since 1987, which a few years off at the turn of the millennium when I had given it up for dead. Glad to find it kept gasping and has finally drawn a good, deep breath. Good luck with your projects. I hope you find a way to contribute if it is your inclination to do so.

@xe54

I just knew you were some sort of engineer

@EDanaII

I misunderstood you, sorry. The board is a special run for a client, I heard only 1500 will be made. 1000 will go to client, the other 500 will be spares and replacements. None will be sold to the public.

However, there is a very similar Freescale development board that costs about 1/3 of what our boards are costing for our client. Sure, it is missing the extra Ethernet port (and some other things, I forget) but it can essentially be a functional substitute.

I'll see if I can get that model number for you and post it here.

Quote:

EDanaII wrote: @ Cod3r Sorry, Cod3r, but I think you misunderstood my question. :) I was asking if, after your product was released, would it be possible to for the community to do what you did. This might have value for all involved. @ billt Looks like the AROS Team is already on it. Ed.

@NutsAboutAmiga

I guess, but i'm not so sure I agree about needing the hardware to write the drivers. If you have the specs, you can write drivers. It is possible.

I've actually made emulators for hardware I didn't have, then developed on the emulator. Once I got the hardware, I tweaked my source for performance and I was done.

If you have the specs, you can write for the hardware. Now, if there are errors in the spec, then you are screwed LOL!

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Cod3r First you need the hardware then you can write the drivers. They have been kind holding it back, its called “First contact”, its basally and other word for early bird, development takes long because of man power, scale of economics, size of community. the only reason to buy the AmigaONE-X1000 is AmigaOS4, AmigaONE-X1000 is the fastest AmigaOS4 compatible hardware you can get, single core or dual core, is worth some ones money that depends on how much you love AmigaOS4 I guess, love is not rational.

@KimmoK

Quote:

Plug and play came around 1995, untill then there was nothing to compare.

although ot its so wrong. it needs to be corrected. to experience it you had to be amiga/pc user at the time. before the pci, the isa was completely pnp agnostic concept. first pci was marketed as kinda solution for that. lets say it didnt worked all that good at the beginning. refer to literature of this time if you need.

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: Plug and play came around 1995, untill then there was nothing to compare

WOW... waaaay wrong there I'm afraid "Plug and Play" was already there as far back as 1980 on the ViC 20...

You could simply plug and play a games cartridge for instance or plug & play (so to speak) a Machine Language Monitor to name but two...

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@Cod3r

I certainly think that there should be a hardware related project that both Amiga and Atari communities can build upon and share knowledge and expertise... it only makes good sense to. Of course we have the Natami project live and kicking and isn't there some 68k related project over in the Atari circles?

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@AmigaMac

You know, I am confused about if Natami is live and kicking or dead and buried. I get conflicting answers. Do you know for sure the project's status?

I heard about the Atari ColdFire Project, which seems like it has legs but i'm not really following it.

I like some Atari concepts (MiNT) but some things seem very dated, but the way the applications are programmed is real clean and to the point. I love the implementation, everything is about the GEMDOS API calls, and it makes application development easy on Atari.

And other than a shared native architecture on the original platforms, do Atari and Amiga share anything else?

Quote:

AmigaMac wrote: @Cod3r I certainly think that there should be a hardware related project that both Amiga and Atari communities can build upon and share knowledge and expertise... it only makes good sense to. Of course we have the Natami project live and kicking and isn't there some 68k related project over in the Atari circles?

@Cod3r
The natamis sole designer and the only guy who ever worked on the actual hardware, Thomas hirsch has taken the natami project private.He is apparently working on it in his spare time.some other memebers left the team.The remaining team don't seem to know the current status.there was a new board revision recently though.It will be a few more years before we see the natami.Oh and it will no longer be called natami.Thomas hirsch wishes to work on the natami alone as it is his pet project.If it happens eventually well and good.

@Cod3r

Quote:

And other than a shared native architecture on the original platforms, do Atari and Amiga share anything else?

I doubt it, but since hardware is much harder to develop and produce than software (due to lack of money, time and expertise); I think that the Amiga and Atari communities could collaborate on a single hardware platform that could be flexible enough to serve those communities. Heck, maybe you could eventually develop APIs where Amiga and Atari applications could be easily ported between the platforms... strengthen the application pool a bit.

Last edited by AmigaMac on 20-Jul-2012 at 04:40 AM.

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@Cod3r

Welcome !

I too was waiting along time for Natami, but its taking its toll.

Amiga world is a strange place, we all been through alot.

Anyway, I really like your ideas alot needs to be done.

I want a cheap Amiga compatible system, i want to write software for more than one Amiga system.

I hope we can have a community central API repository to compare different Amigoid systems compatibility.

if we all decide to use MUI GUI for example agree on an XML standard for portability.

I dont care what system I develop on - i wont mind a Visual Studio cross compile to Amiga chipset/gui simulation.

Amiga is a loving system, beautifully elegant - it deserves so much more.

Can Amiga chipset be simulated in GPU
Amiga need XMP,Java, Visual developer suite, new framworks

Amiga kernal needs updating to support application execution and
control via script.

Amiga is an open canvas, there is not much we cannot do and hence the importance to work together.

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@adrianbrowne

Interesting. Someone just informed me that Natami (in one form or another) is actually available. I'm thinking of seeing if it really is...

Quote:

adrianbrowne wrote: @Cod3r The natamis sole designer and the only guy who ever worked on the actual hardware, Thomas hirsch has taken the natami project private.He is apparently working on it in his spare time.some other memebers left the team.The remaining team don't seem to know the current status.there was a new board revision recently though.It will be a few more years before we see the natami.Oh and it will no longer be called natami.Thomas hirsch wishes to work on the natami alone as it is his pet project.If it happens eventually well and good.