@Overflow

Quote:

Im not trying to be mean or anything, but do you have any demo/game making expirience?

My experience is whit mplayer and Basilisk output display driver, this the thing I like to work on, what I did a long time ago is not relevant, much has happened since then, what I did back then was wrong anyway, I did not care about benchmarks or anything back then.

I'm not taking about a demo, I'm just taking about transferee speed nothing else.

My point was that AGA was slow, and RTG is faster, so you should run faster on RTG, by using sysspeed benchmark I can put some number on things.

What interests me is how fast is it to copy a image from fast to where ever.

Does it make a difference if we it was RTG? Thats my question to the demo coders and way not, Britelite is trying to answer that question.

Quote:

The reason why I ask is that Britelite and Novacoder have alot of expirience programming classical hardware demos/games (Nova with his ports).

Yes I know they are, not saying anything else, its not a attack on there work.

Quote:

I'm quite certain that both Britelite and Novacoder is doing their best to squeeze out the maximum of FPS they can when making 3d demos/games.

Maybe they are using the most efficient method, maybe there are room for improvements.
I don't know.

It does not seem to me that Novacoder disagree with me.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 01:06 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 01:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 01:01 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 01:00 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 12:59 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

My point was that AGA was slow, and RTG is faster, so you should run faster on RTG, by using sysspeed benchmark I can put some number on things.

Yes, RTG is faster than AGA.

But you need to understand that if you quadruple the resolution (320*240 -> 640*480), you actually have to CALCULATE four times as many pixels, and that's not something RTG will speed up, as it's cpu task. RTG will only speed up copying the final screenbuffer to the gfxcard.

@NutsAboutAmiga

I really don't know why i'm joinging this discussion but this is my try to explain things to you:

Imagine that an effect in a demo runs at 15fps. It means it can put new image 15times per second. All calculations happen in fast memory. Not touching display at all. Now imagine that you disable display code completely. The effect will run maybe 17fps. That means that display code is only small portion.

Now increase the resolution of the effect with display code disabled. Still rendering everything in fast ram but you have 4 times more pixels to calculate. In most cases the effect will run 17/4fps -> ~4fps. No matter if it has to display anything at all.

So even if your display code (ie moving data from fastram buffer to screen) takes 0 time it will still be only 4fps

cheers, kiero

@kiero and Britelite

That's exactly the answer I was looking for.

Thanks.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 24-Apr-2014 at 02:14 PM.

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@Thread

Well, I could play both demos on my AmigaOne XEG4 1,26 Ghz (radeon 9000 Pro), RunInUAE and E-UAE JIT Beta 2 :

Serenity By Elude (please, forward video between 0:20 and 2:20 since it takes some time to start), a little bit slow sometimes :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkk-x5qvqDE

Rift By TBL (a little bit out of sync sometimes but works really well):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zWGEPAF_RM

Nice !

Last edited by K-L on 25-Apr-2014 at 09:05 PM.

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@K-L

You have posted the same link twice.

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@Overflow

The demo "The Rift" from The Black Lotus is beautiful and superb! Imagine showing it to a PC friend on your Amiga 1200! I love AGA Amigas, the demoscene and The Black Lotus! Great work!

@Thread

Kink corrected for Fift my an AmigaOne XE :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zWGEPAF_RM

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Are you sure, doom 68k, quake 68k I belive does run in this resolutions on 68060, whit RTG

I ran DoomAttack on my 50MHz 060 A1200 with BVision. It was slower in 640x480, but still playable.

I say this definitely proves it.

Doom is way less demanding on the CPU than modern AGA demos.

@Britelite

Quote:

basically showing PC guys stuff they already did 15 years ago? ;)

It's the same when demomakers do a demo on C64. There's no competition between platforms (CPU/GPU power...) but between people that know how to code and others.

I understand from your answers that you don't have what it takes to show all PC demomakers that rely on their CPU/GPU that you can do nice effects on a less powerful platform.

Don't take it too seriously though.

Last edited by elwood on 26-Apr-2014 at 05:00 PM.

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People are remaking Amiga and PC demos on C64. Only gfx resolution is lower. ...

Last edited by Tomppeli on 26-Apr-2014 at 12:53 PM.

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@elwood

Quote:

I understand from your answers that you don't have what it takes to show all PC demomakers that rely on their CPU/GPU that you can do nice effects on a less powerful platform.

Thanks for the personal insult, good way to win an argument.

Edit: But still, let me explain this so that maybe even you might understand it. Making good stuff on the C64 or classic Amigas is impressive, because you actually need to know the hardware and make use of it.

But when moving on to NG Amigas, there's NOTHING AT ALL that sets them apart from a PC, which is why doing stuff on them isn't really that impressive. And especially now in 2014, they NG Amigas lack in CPU and GPU power compared to any other machine available, which makes stuff look even more unimpressive by comparison.

AmigaOS4 (or MorphOS) don't give any advantages for demomaking, so there's really nothing you could do on NG Amigas that couldn't be done (better) on a 10-15 year old PC.

Last edited by Britelite on 29-Apr-2014 at 07:11 AM.
Last edited by Britelite on 29-Apr-2014 at 07:01 AM.

@Tomppeli

Quote:

People are remaking Amiga and PC demos on C64. Only gfx resolution is lower. ...

Yes, there are some remakes of over 20 year old PC/Amiga demos.

And it's not only the resolution that is lower, also the complexity and framerate :)

@Britelite

...and yet it still looks mighty impressive... respect to all the great demo coders and groups I have come to enjoy on the Commodore c64 and Amiga...

Q!

"i am home"

@QuBe

Quote:

...and yet it still looks mighty impressive... respect to all the great demo coders and groups I have come to enjoy on the Commodore c64 and Amiga...

Never said they're not impressive, just tried to point out that saying they just run in a lower resolution is oversimplifying it :)

@Britelite

>Making good stuff on the C64 or classic Amigas is impressive, because you actually need to know the hardware and make use of it.

>But when moving on to NG Amigas, there's NOTHING AT ALL that sets them apart from a PC, which is why doing stuff on them isn't really that impressive. And especially now in 2014, they NG Amigas lack in CPU and GPU power compared to any other machine available, which makes stuff look even more unimpressive by comparison.

But when NG Amigas lack in CPU and GPU, people need to know the hardware and make use of it etc?


But yes, I agree, sure. NG systems are in the same demoing gategory as peecees.
To win with it in demo competition, you need to do far more work than on a windows machine for the same result, so why would democoder bother.

>AmigaOS4 (or MorphOS) don't give any advantages for demomaking,...

Constructive could be to try to think how that can be changed.
Low end T1022 based AmigaOneX300 as the demo HW, with it's limited DIU GFX?
Or some superb cool / innovative SW API for RadeonHD powered HW?
Or?

>...on a 10-15 year old PC.

13 years ago Amigas still won some democompetions, even though PC's had 100x more CPU power and 3D GPU to use.
ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2001/assembly01/results.txt

btw. is the year y2006 the most recent when Amiga demo won?
wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_(demo_party)

IMO, pretty cool. They used 80MIPS Amiga to beat some 30000?MIPS + GPU? PC LOL!
They were idiots when trying, but heros when winning.

Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Apr-2014 at 10:08 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Apr-2014 at 10:02 AM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 29-Apr-2014 at 09:58 AM.

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@KimmoK

Quote:

But when NG Amigas lack in CPU and GPU, people need to know the hardware and make use of it etc?

Not in the way you utilize the hardware on the c64/classic-Amiga

Quote:

To win with it in demo competition, you need to do far more work than on a windows machine for the same result, so why would democoder bother.

Except that they couldn't technically even reach the same level currently.

Quote:

Low end T1022 based AmigaOneX300 as the demo HW, with it's limited DIU GFX? Or some superb cool / innovative SW API for RadeonHD powered HW?

How about we stay in the real world?

Quote:

13 years ago Amigas still won some democompetions, even though PC's had 100x more CPU power and 3D GPU to use.

Important to notice that they won with a 68k Amiga, not a NG Amiga ;)

Quote:

IMO, pretty cool. They used 80MIPS Amiga to beat some 30000?MIPS + GPU? PC LOL! They were idiots when trying, but heros when winning.

Like I said, doing stuff on the 68k Amiga is impressive, not doing stuff on the NG Amiga

But let me state this again, if you guys want to see demos for the NG Amiga, then start making them.

Show me and everyone else how awesome the hardware and OS is!

I'll gladly be proven wrong!

But until then... :)

@Britelite

>Except that they couldn't technically even reach the same level currently.

Technical merits are not the only things that matter.

>Important to notice that they won with a 68k Amiga, not a NG Amiga

So, even when they were in same gatecory, they got "unfair" advantage of the limited HW?

I've also read reviews how Amiga demos just were designed better, rather than brainless technical effect after another.


So. IMHO. Winning demo competition with NG system is possible.
(but it would help a lot if there was multicore support and accelerated 3D available to use)

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
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@Britelite



I think everyone appriciate the awesome demos you have made on classic Amigas, so the argument isnt really about how awesome/horrible NG hardware is.

A fair chunk of the active posters on this forum either owns a NG machine or have a positive attitude towards the efforts of Aeon/hyperion (regardless of what you might think of the chosen hardware platform, which is a whole different discussion).

I wouldnt mind seeing NG demos by skilled coders like yourselves, but I do understand your argument that NG falls between two chairs;

-Not limiting enough like the c64/classical amiga, where you really have to pull out all the tricks in the book to get .:magical:. results

-Too limited to reach the next category, which is current PC performance. Its the "weightclass" NG is striving for, so I can understand its hard to justify the cost to buy the hardware "just" to make demos

Or?