@WolfToTheMoon


Never say never ... Qemu already has one. :) So maybe not 68k but possibly ppc.

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@WolfToTheMoon
Why should 64bit emulation of a 32Bit system be faster? The only benefit of 64bit is to be able to address more memory and so only tasks with big memory requirements as imaging or database work is really faster on 64bit.

So as long you don't need more than ~3.5GB RAM you will not see a difference.

use the blue arrow to switch between benchmarks:

32Bit is always 1-2% faster than 64bit except you are running stuff where a single element exceeds 3.5GB.

Mega images can be loaded in >4GB... or Multiple video frames + Effects in a Video rendering suite.

Games and 3D-Design does not really benefit because GPU's are 64Bit or greater since years and good 3D software always loads the entire model into the GPU VRAM.

64bit with application who need less then 4GB have a overhead problem.
You need to fill first a 64bit long description before the CPU execute it. A 32Bit description of what to do next is of course "sended" quicker. And so it is executed quicker.

Conclusion:
Whenever you need less than 4GB a 32Bit is theoretically faster.
Myth busted : )

EDIT:
Whatever... 64Bit is going to be standard(is already on some platforms) in 1-2 years so it was just for the record.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 21-Aug-2014 at 05:49 PM.

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@phoenixkonsole

Quote:

Conclusion: Whenever you need less than 4GB a 32Bit is theoretically faster. Myth busted : )

Better use 16 oven 8 bit processors instead by that logic.
[edit]
refering to your whole post not just the lines 1 quoted
[/quoted]

Last edited by broadblues on 21-Aug-2014 at 05:49 PM.

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@thread

so my setup in winuae is done, and, yeah, it's slow. very slow. if toni integrates the PPC JIT code, then it might be comparable to a classic with a 603e accelerator -- but only just. still it will be enough for me to run amirc, codebench, and digital universe on my laptop. and it will be a useful option for people who want to try AOS4 before sinking money into a much faster, but much more expensive, dedicated NG machine.

-- eliyahu

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@broadblues
Nope : ) unless if you edit files which fit into that space.
4GB is the magic barrier.
Imaging (2D), Video-Editing benefit the most.
Since videos are getting bigger and even Photos go into the multimillion Pixels.. 64Bit is the way to go.

PPC-Emualtion doesn't benefit from 64Bit until you try to emulate a 64Bit PPC.
Writing that 64Bit for WinUAE would make it faster is not true.
Sure if you compare a 32bit ATOM vs a 64Bit i7... the i7 wins. But not because of 64bit or not.

One reason I bring this up is because people think Sam and co are outdated (32bit) but who cares? Do you edit videos? No. Manipulate NASA like 1Billion Pixel images? No? Well 32Bit is still enough.

Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 21-Aug-2014 at 05:55 PM.
Last edited by phoenixkonsole on 21-Aug-2014 at 05:53 PM.

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@eliyahu

Performance of QEMU PowerPC emulation in some tasks is comparable to 1 GHz PowerPC G3 on Core i5-2500K 3.3 GHz.

@cgutjahr

I think it will be off benefit in the short term by boosting sales of AmigaOS4 Classic, I know several who have allready ordered it.

I'm a little concerned that it will give a negative impression of AmigaOS4 though. Even with the quemu JIT it's not going to be blazingly fast, and your limited to a fairly strict emulation of the Picasso IV by the sounds of it, in which case no compositing etc etc.

Applications like SketchBlock need memory so are going to be a cramped in 128 bit.

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@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

he biggest advantage of emulated OS4/MOS will come to those people who always wished to try out the OS, but were not willing to buy in on expensive HW. They will most likely pirate, I think. But it will not matter much since they were not going to be paying customers anyway.

This argument is bol****** if I may say so, the same old excuse for piracy as ever, "it doesn't matter if I steal you music, I wasn't going to buy it anyway" if your interested enough to pirate it your interested enough to buy it.

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@broadblues

Phoenixconsole is right. When emulating 32-bit system you dont get much advantage from 64-bit registers. If you had to emulate 32-bit system on 16-bit CPU it would be different.

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@phoenixkonsole

Quote:

Why should 64bit emulation of a 32Bit system be faster?

Because of the architectural improvements on x64/AMD64 over x32

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@broadblues

but they're not interested in buying because it would cost them upwards of 500 EUR for a OS4 base system.

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@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

but they're not interested in buying because it would cost them upwards of 500 EUR for a OS4 base system.

Er but OS 4 classic by itself does not cost so much ( don't know the price certainly not 500 EURO) so the fact that they don't want to spend 500 on hardware does not give them the excuse to pirate the OS to use under emulation.

You might as well say you'll pirate my CDs now that you can rip them to mp3 because you couldn't afford a CD player before.

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@WolfToTheMoon
You said 64 bit... architectural improvements can be applied to 32bit as well (theoretically now 32Bit is nearing EOL everywhere even on ARM Roadmaps).

Let's try a 32Bit Intel® Xeon® Processor 2.80 GHz, 4M Cache, 800 MHz FSB
EOL 2007

vs a 64bit AthlonXP....
Cache, Extension and so on have nothing to do with the question 32/64bit.

Of course "architectural improvements" will only happen in 64bit now since every vendor switched already.
The argument was just about 32Bit vs 64bit.

Whatever.. 32Bit is executed faster than 64bit even on 64Bit CPU'S .... : ) 1-2%...
But also this will be compensated by optimized compilers (and non-optimzed 32bit compilers because no one cares)...

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Maybe they could change the name OS4.1 Classic to
OS4.1 Demo or something like that.

I always liked the shareware or demo's on the Amiga.

After some time you want to use more stuff in the program
or add some updates or extra drivers.

Last edited by Dirk-B on 21-Aug-2014 at 07:34 PM.

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Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote: @WolfToTheMoon You said 64 bit... architectural improvements can be applied to 32bit as well (theoretically now 32Bit is nearing EOL everywhere even on ARM Roadmaps). Let's try a 32Bit Intel® Xeon® Processor 2.80 GHz, 4M Cache, 800 MHz FSB EOL 2007 vs a 64bit AthlonXP.... Cache, Extension and so on have nothing to do with the question 32/64bit. Of course "architectural improvements" will only happen in 64bit now since every vendor switched already. The argument was just about 32Bit vs 64bit. Whatever.. 32Bit is executed faster than 64bit even on 64Bit CPU'S .... : ) 1-2%... But also this will be compensated by optimized compilers (and non-optimzed 32bit compilers because no one cares)...

WolfToTheMoon is right: using x64 instead of x86 means using DOUBLE the general purpose & SIMD registers. And it helps A LOT emulation (and MANY other things, of course).

So, updating the WinUAE JIT to x64 will give A LOT of benefits in terms of performance.

I took at look sometime ago to the sources, and I saw that the JIT is started supporting x64, albeit it's incomplete. So, expect to have it working in future (hope near).

Last but not least, don't think that 64-bit aren't useful. For example, right now I'm working to a draft for a possible patent about an invention: it requires / works only with a 64-bit architecture. In the past, when I worked to a JPEG 2000 decoder for STMicroelectronics, I had an idea about using 64-bit to implement a costly part of the decoding algorithm.
So, let the coders express their creativity.

@Dirk-B

Quote:

Maybe they could change the name OS4.1 Classic to OS4.1 Demo or something like that.

If it was going to be handed out for free as Demo, then you need to remove features, or some how cripple the software to make people buy it for real.

They done that with MorphOS, making it slower after awhile if the user have not registered his copy.

At least this kills the excuse to pirate it for testing before you buy it.

Quote:

After some time you want to use more stuff in the program or add some updates or extra drivers.

Personally I like the idea of Demo's, this allows me to try out games maybe I can only play one or two levels, but at least I get a impression if the game is worth playing and buying.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Aug-2014 at 08:02 PM.

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@phoenixkonsole

Can you please stop spouting nonsense.
You could not be more wrong about the significance of a x64 JIT. It has little to do with how much memory can be addressed, or emulating a 64bit ppc CPU.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

It would be good if you could download it from thr 68k version of Amistore. It would lower the cost further for people who are not bothered about physical media and a box.

According to the poll there are at least 300 people ready to part with there money once a stable and compatible version of UAE is available.

Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote: @WolfToTheMoon You said 64 bit... architectural improvements can be applied to 32bit as well (theoretically now 32Bit is nearing EOL everywhere even on ARM Roadmaps). Let's try a 32Bit Intel® Xeon® Processor 2.80 GHz, 4M Cache, 800 MHz FSB EOL 2007 vs a 64bit AthlonXP.... Cache, Extension and so on have nothing to do with the question 32/64bit. Of course "architectural improvements" will only happen in 64bit now since every vendor switched already. The argument was just about 32Bit vs 64bit. Whatever.. 32Bit is executed faster than 64bit even on 64Bit CPU'S .... : ) 1-2%... But also this will be compensated by optimized compilers (and non-optimzed 32bit compilers because no one cares)...

Just an example: http://aarongiles.com/?p=200 And it was the first attempt with MAME, when they introduced the support for x64.

The performance improves 15% on averange switching from x86 to x64, on the same machine. Especially emulators have a great chance to improve the performance.

@agami
You are now Talking about 64Bit + simd this is a difference as if You Talk about just 64Bit vs 32bit.
A modern Chip with simd and other new instructionsets will be faster anyway.

Again i just Talk about 32bit vs 64Bit . Not extended instructionsets.
Wasn't a g4 faster than a g3 as well, or a g3 than a 603e or a pentium than a 386dx40. not because they were 64Bit but because of instructionsets and optimized Design and Cache and other things.

My rule is valid as Long your chipdesign is identical except the 32bit vs 64Bit question.
You Missed the years from 1995 where People WHO Produced Systems talked about pro and contra 64Bit (Siemens Experimentes with worlstations based on nintendo64's tech 3 years later.

You mix up General Design changes in cpu's and Bussystems which Speed up 32bit operations as well with the possibilty to address More Space and so make better use of RAM. If You Don't need enough RAM 64Bit Takes nanoseconds longer for filling the 64 Bit instructions than filling a way shorter 32bit Long sentence.

Even m$ says that the only Benefit of 64Bit is addressing more RAM. If they would State That it rund faster than 32bit they woul Lie.
Sure is my xeon e5 faster than my 32bit pentium4 but it is faster in every Aspect and not because it is 64Bit.

64Bit is for Memory
Chipdesign busdesign moving things into one Chip is what Speeds things up.
See mobile Phones.... The manufacterures know this as Long they Stay under 4gb they can give a Shit about 64Bit. Apple was the First introducing it because a. They wanted to be the first and secondly they removed 32bit from Xcode a Long tine ago for macs to Force Users to buy new devices asap

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