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Rob 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 22-Sep-2017 22:08:58
#41 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5563
From: S.Wales

@agami

Quote:
It was interesting that they had one SIMM slot on the main accelerator board, and another on the BVision board. Hey, if the accelerator is a daughter card, does that make the BVision a granddaughter card?


There was no simm slot on the BVision and the BPPC had 2 simm slots. I think you're getting mixed up with the Blizzard SCSI Kit IV for the Blizzard 1230 IV and 1260/1240.

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agami 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 23-Sep-2017 13:14:57
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 484
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Rob

Quote:
I think you're getting mixed up with the Blizzard SCSI Kit IV for the Blizzard 1230 IV and 1260/1240.

You're most likely right. It must have been the 1240 I had in there before the PPC. Still, it's interesting that there was a SIMM slot on the add-on card.

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AdvancedFollower 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 23-Sep-2017 14:53:39
#43 ]
New Member
Joined: 29-Aug-2017
Posts: 8
From: Sweden

I drooled over those PPC accelerators, but I stuck with my '030 + 16 MB of RAM until I switched to a PC around 1997-98. Was probably the right decision considering how little use the PPC chip got. Price was also a factor (especially since I was a school kid at the time), I paid less for a complete second hand Pentium PC than one of those boards cost.

Last edited by AdvancedFollower on 23-Sep-2017 at 02:54 PM.

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BigD 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 0:16:26
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4072
From: UK

@AdvancedFollower

Quote:
second hand Pentium PC ...


I bet it was a pile of excrement compared to the Amiga. Doom and C&C were good but by 1998 Doom was on the Amiga! I made do with a Windows 98 laptop between 2003 and 2006 when I bought a second hand iBook. Horrible times especially with dial up Red Alert 2 and Theme Hospital wer the only consolations.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Pixar Animation Studios

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AdvancedFollower 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 11:19:40
#45 ]
New Member
Joined: 29-Aug-2017
Posts: 8
From: Sweden

@BigD

Windows 98 was quite frustrating and not a real step up from AmigaOS 3.0 (1992). However hardware-wise, there was no comparison, especially after I added a Voodoo card for gaming. Also within a year or so, I had upgraded the system to a K6-2 400 MHz CPU. PC hardware was getting very affordable by then, with the competition in the 3D accelerator and CPU markets, while the Amiga stuff was becoming increasingly niche and expensive.

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Hypex 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 17:42:34
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8628
From: Greensborough, Australia

@pavlor

Quote:
Not for users.

2004: 4.0 Developer pre-release (first public release of OS4)


The labelling here is irrelevant. I got this so called Developer pre-release with my AmigaOne Earlybird special. I instaled it and it worked fine. I wasn't an official developer. Just a user. So yes, 2004 is the year of the OS.

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pavlor 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 24-Sep-2017 18:28:26
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8415
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Eh, my point: OS4 was released for the general public in 2004, nine years after the first Amiga goes PowerPC announcement. "Not for users" was aimed at iggy´s reply to my post number 3.

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Hypex 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 15:57:47
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8628
From: Greensborough, Australia

@pavlor

Yes I see. I must have quoted slightly more than intended.

Was it announced in 1995? I recall McEwan saying something in 2000 or so when OS3.9 was coming out, about OS4.0. But wasn't aware of some OS4.0 announcement before then.

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pavlor 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 16:05:28
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8415
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
Was it announced in 1995?


Yes, OS4 was mentioned in Power Amiga announcement. Then Gateway announced OS4 and OS5... Even Commodore has its own semi-announced OS4 project (RTG support).

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BigD 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 21:49:40
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4072
From: UK

@AdvancedFollower

Quote:
PC hardware was getting very affordable by then, with the competition in the 3D accelerator and CPU markets, while the Amiga stuff was becoming increasingly niche and expensive.


True, but it just wasn't fun computing anymore. The rise of the PC pushed me towards the closed system worlds of Apple Mac and the Sony games consoles (I wasn't going to support Microsoft was I ). I only burried the hatchet with Microsoft recently following my experiences with my wife's Nokia Lumia Windows Phone (quite decent compared to closed iPhone rubbish and the tiles make sense on a phone). Also, having used Excel, Word, Powerpoint and Access (and Adobe Photoshop) extensively over the last few years I can mimmick a lot of what I could do with PageStream and TurboPrint Graphics Publisher now! Excel is a very accomplished program and Access is a great entry level database program. None of this actually makes the programs fun to use and inputting scientific formulas in particular is a PITA in MS Office. However, it is all possible especially now that there is a YouTube video for everything

Microsoft won the long game. Even the XBox One X (XBOX for short ) looks great and the first proper 4K console! Shame there's not more 1st party exclusives! Who would have believed MS would drop the ball on software!!!!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Pixar Animation Studios

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Beans 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 22:21:07
#51 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 392
From: Bear Delaware USA

@BigD

Pile of Excrement?
Even a second hand Pentium probably had a video card with 3D acceleration, and 16 bit sound was common by that period.
And even early Pentiums were clocked at what? About 66MHz (basically, already faster than the '60s used in a tiny % of Amigas).
I didn't start recommending them until the 75 MHz models with the minor bug fix that Pentium's need was introduced.
Win98? Still DOS based, but significantly better than the Win 3.X period.
Direct X 9 was introduced while Windows 98 was current, and Direct X 9 apps slap an Amiga silly.

Hubris only gets you so far dude.

The PPC 603e/604e used in Amiga accelerators topped out at 233MHz, coincidentally the same speed as the fastest socket 7 Pentium (of course Socket 7 went on to clock up to 500MHz - higher if you overclock, I've had AMD K6-III+ chips running above 600MHz).
And the PPCs used in Amiga accelerators saw almost NO use in OS3.1 to OS3.9 (and they run OS4 poorly).

Look Amiga started with the ball AND DROPPED IT.
MPCs were developed in response to multi-media computers like the Amiga and while Commodore couldn't be bothered to update Paula, PCs suddenly got BETTER sound than an Amiga (I still have an old AWE64 and can prove that to you).
AGA? Too late, too little, too slow - and no 3D.
PCI? Only via third parties (because Commodore DIED before introducing a PCI Amiga).

The problem was, even a second hand POS Pentium system could thoroughly thrash your systems.
The got cheap and faster, and the Amiga became a hot potato asset that no one devoted any development on.

You can't rewrite history. I was a big fan of the 68K processor and thanks to Apple and Commodore (who as far as I'm concerned BLEW IT) a second rate manufacturer of calculator cpus because the number one vendor of PC cpus.

Amiga LOST! Get it? We LOST!
And that never should have happened.
Probably wouldn't have if Commodore had left well enough alone and let Atari have Lorraine.
Because Commodore management had two left feet and were born to lose.

Last edited by Beans on 25-Sep-2017 at 10:25 PM.
Last edited by Beans on 25-Sep-2017 at 10:23 PM.
Last edited by Beans on 25-Sep-2017 at 10:22 PM.
Last edited by Beans on 25-Sep-2017 at 10:21 PM.

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BigD 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 23:21:21
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4072
From: UK

@Beans

Atari would not have let Amiga - Hi-Toro finish the Amiga 1000 they just wanted the custom chips! The best we could have hoped for would have been an Atari ST half breed with blitter and custom chips. Maybe the Atari ST freed from the Amiga competition would have enabled it to compete with the Mac but only Chuck Peddle could have created an IBM PC killer. Commodore had the keys to the kingdom not Atari and they blew it twice.

Strike one they let Chuck Peddle walk and Gould/Tramiel didn't see his vision for a computer 'platform'.

Strike two, the Amiga debacle and again they let the talent walk away.

Strike three (to complete the three strikes analogy) and probably the death blow was the money being paid to top executives with no R&D for anything!!!!!!

The A3000UX technology properly sold to Sun Microsystems and the ability to license the Amiga custom chips to the PC industry in the 80s should have saved Commodore never mind the Toaster technology or the gaming market (if they'd monetised the Ranger chipset early)! Instead they tried to sell PCs

Last edited by BigD on 25-Sep-2017 at 11:27 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 25-Sep-2017 at 11:25 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Pixar Animation Studios

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Beans 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 23:39:29
#53 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 392
From: Bear Delaware USA

@BigD

Not a single point I'd disagree with.

Disregarded the opinions of valuable employees.
Didn't take serious uses of the platform...seriously (really blew it with the Sun and UNIX markets).
And didn't invest enough in R&D.

Really makes you wonder what would have happened if Jay miner had lived longer.
I don't think it was his intention to build a game machine.

He envisioned the first mass marketed multi-media computer.

First out the door and you frog that up?
OMG, young people think Apple invented multi-media and they were black and white when the Amiga was released.
Pathetic little single bit beeps and 4 color modes on the PC?
Remember, the Tandy 1000 looked better because Tandy adopted some 16 color PC Jr. video modes (and even only 16 colors looks better than 4, or 1).

All I can say is the PC and Mac designers learned really quickly what to clone.
And then they turned it around and marketed the snot out of it.

If Amiga had thrived into the 3D texture compressed future, just maybe things would be a little more interesting these day.

As it is, appliance oriented computing won. And it bores the stuffing out of me.

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Srtest 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 23:45:57
#54 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Nov-2016
Posts: 147
From: Israel, Haderah

@BigD

Someone from the UK uses an American baseball analogy - what has the world come to?!

I guess you have some custom chips of your own there

I think any thought about commodore that doesn't include an analysis of the market in those times is futile. It's like the tv show halt and catch fire (where they showed the amiga for a couple of seconds) where the next episode entails a new harware or software revolution. Those days were kinda like that. It's not suprising that what would manage through the times is a solid ground of standards, lables, this rock solid approach and the ability to simply use whatever is available because tommorow might prove what you have is no longer relevant.

They always talk about the original genius who is unapproachable both literally and through his designs. Someone like Petro who gave the amiga this sane and normal model of upgrading regularly in small increments was not only just as important but also had his hands on the changing of times from a market stand point.

Last edited by Srtest on 25-Sep-2017 at 11:49 PM.

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PR 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 25-Sep-2017 23:54:08
#55 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1768
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

@BigD is very wise and a good point.

Here the A500 and a few A1200's really work.

We all hoped it got to be continued.

Luckily we have the New HW and some that can repair.

Amiga lasts as long as we do.

PR

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Beans 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 0:19:12
#56 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Aug-2016
Posts: 392
From: Bear Delaware USA

@PR

Quote:
Amiga lasts as long as we do.


Actually, I think my A2000 is going to outlive me, without recapping .

I might even get an upgrade for it out of Gunnar Von Bohem, so sometimes I think I'm hallucinating all this (including the idea that there three different Amiga OS descended operating systems to choose from - to service what, a few thousand people).

Gotta be some weird flashback cause from something the MK Ultra project slipped into the water supply.
After all, Bill Gates the geek that used to sell BASIC to the S-100 crowd is the richest man on the planet?

Obviously the real me is drooling away somewhere in a loony bin.

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AdvancedFollower 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 9:18:01
#57 ]
New Member
Joined: 29-Aug-2017
Posts: 8
From: Sweden

In my view, it wasn't really a war between Amiga and PC, but between the tightly integrated "home computer" and modular systems built from off-the-shelf components.
In the 1980's we had literally dozens of home computer manufacturers. By the 1990's they had dwindled to just a few. The Amiga just happened to be one of the last of a dying breed.

How could one company designing video chips, sound chips, controller chips etc. in-house possibly compete with companies that dedicate all their R&D resources to just designing one specific component (CPU, GPU, etc.) and sell them to multiple manufacturers... If a PC manufacturer wanted to introduce a better system, they just had to pick up a batch of the latest video cards, CPUs, sound cards etc. They didn't actually have to invent them first.

Even Apple eventually went down this route, as Macs for the past 10+ years are just PC's in custom cases with custom firmware (pretty much what "Amiga" should have been from 1995 onward).

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BigD 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 11:39:17
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4072
From: UK

@AdvancedFollower

Quote:
it wasn't really a war between Amiga and PC, but between the tightly integrated "home computer" and modular systems built from off-the-shelf components.


And yet integrated home computers lived on as games consoles until the PS4 generation. Because people are stupid enough to lock themselves into a 2 year upgrade cycle on smart phones, companies now think there is no point building an integrated computer/game console because it'll be obsolete in 2 years so build a disposable x86-64 system and give up on in-house design for computers/consoles. Intel, AMD and NVidia will become the only people pushing the industry forward.

_________________
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John Lasseter, Pixar Animation Studios

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Hypex 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 16:38:06
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8628
From: Greensborough, Australia

@pavlor

The only one I recall is the AmigaOS4/x86 one that was to act as a bridge between OS3 and OS5. I thoughtthey might actually do it, but also that the OS4 bridge was just a cover for the OS they really wanted to produce for the PC and slap an Amiga label on it to give it some cred and pull in the "low hanging fruit."

Well they did manage ot do that with the DE thing. Really nothing to do with Amiga. What was the excuse? It used runtime libraries like on Amiga? Except the functions could be loaded from disk only when needed.

Last edited by Hypex on 27-Sep-2017 at 04:26 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: 20 years Amiga powerpc
Posted on 26-Sep-2017 17:00:19
#60 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8628
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Beans

Quote:
Even a second hand Pentium probably had a video card with 3D acceleration, and 16 bit sound was common by that period.


Against how many Amigas with an RTG card and 16-bit card? It wasn't common. For professional only really.

Quote:
Direct X 9 was introduced while Windows 98 was current, and Direct X 9 apps slap an Amiga sill


According to a TrevorDick interview the guy who worked on the DirectX API was inspired by the Amiga so that slap hurts even more.

Quote:
AGA? Too late, too little, too slow - and no 3D.


Except the non-textured flat filled polygons the blitter was good at. They should have at least added bitmap warping ability which would have allowed hardware accelerated texture mapping to an extent. Instead the texture ability was left as a static 16x1 bitmap only good for cartoon fills if that.

But more so, they should have done AAA. When you read they didn't think it would be better than what the PC was coming out with it sounds stupid they instead decided to leave it with something worse! Who cares! It's better than what the Amiga would have been left with!

Not that the Amiga would have survived at that point anyway. But it would have made things better for us. An A1200 was embarassing next to an Atari Falcon even. :

Quote:
You can't rewrite history. I was a big fan of the 68K processor and thanks to Apple and Commodore (who as far as I'm concerned BLEW IT) a second rate manufacturer of calculator cpus because the number one vendor of PC cpus.


I quite agree. I found this out for myself when I did my last BlitterWolf article. And the 8080 Intel did prodice is said to be slower than the TTL one Datapoint put together. They are also to blame for giving us this little endian blot on computer society. Which is taken too far when they use it for splitting 15/16-bit high colour RGB data up so the bits are messed up all over the place. No logical reason for doing so. Except popular computers like data that way. And popular computers have big endian instructions so again no logical reason for doing so. Will network order be attacked next?

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