@ppcamiga1

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ppcamiga1 wrote: @Signal Since november 1992 only cpu which has to be 32 bit big endian and OS is important.

That's just dandy with me, and also the hardware people as the years since have proved.

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Tinkering with computers.

@Beans

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Beans wrote: @kolla No, the API limitations are the same. So...31 bit memory limiting us to 1.5 GB of ram, no SMP without breaking compatibility, and the other API compatibility constraints.

Exactly, and you cannot deny that these are the limitations that drives developers away.

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BUT, processors that run 10 to 50 times faster, infinately more capable gpus, modern expansion slots (including going beyond PCI), the power needed for OpenGL based applications..... This list could go on for a really long time.

Yes, I know MorphOS's primary function is to load Quake and see how high FPS rates one can get on ageing hardware.

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AND, those limitations are in place to assure compatibility with YOUR legacy software.

I have been arguing for breaking compatibility since 1995 or so, and MorphOS came with a little strain of hope, "Q-box", do you remember that? Whatever happened to Q-box?.

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If jetisoned, our development would continue, we would only have broken compatibility with legacy software. And that is inevitable, with legacy software running in a box or via UAE.

It is already running in a box, "A-box".

http://pegasos.si/files/morphos_in_detail.pdf

Last edited by kolla on 07-Dec-2016 at 06:27 PM.

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@kolla

Q-box is not likely to ever be implemented, it was a lofty goal set when MorphOS looked like it might capture a larger share of the market.
I don't run Quake or for that matter many other video games under MorphOS.
Although, the extra cpu power is useful at running programs of all sorts at higher resolutions.

API compatibility that limits the OS is due to be stripped in the move to X64.

And as to what keeps developers away, I'd focus on better OpenGL support myself, possibly OpenGL ES?
AND better documentation for the OS and developers package.

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Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Signal

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My A1X1k came with a ATI graphics card, soon it needed another ATI card to stay current, then another card to do 3D, if I wanted such. If the 3rd card should need replacement will I have to wait for drivers for a 4th card? Yes, the argument for the 4th card being more capable and faster is valid, but where does it end?

Yep, graphic driver support under OS4 has jumped around a bit. I don't understand the lack of development for the 4650 cards that were included with most X1000s.
MorphOS has not gotten around to properly supporting the R700 series, but if history is any indication, the R600, R700, and beyond will be progressively supported before later cards are jumped to.

So blame your hardware and software vendors.

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Over a period of 3 1/2 years I spent over $8500.00 on hardware, software, donations and community activities. I cannot begin to total the number of hours spent on this hobby, and I'm not talking about just using it, or playing games.

Wow, you have been a big supporter!
I don't intend to spend more than a fraction of that on my X5000.

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Nobody DEMANDED Xmos, and it is still totally unsupported by the people that put it on the board and those that were to tie it to the system. Well, that's probably my fault too.

Yeah...that, hmm, seems to be Paul Gentle's suggestion, at least he was using XMOS hardware when the X1000 was being designed.
I don't get that part either, but Amiga hackers do seem to enjoy interfacing there systems directly with outside gadgets. I guess the intention was to give them a smart interface to do it with. So far, I'd blame the hackers for not exploring it.
XMOS users don't expect the company vending the devices to figure out the uses for them, they design the applications themselves.
And I doubt this adds much cost to the AmigaOne boards.

Last edited by Beans on 07-Dec-2016 at 07:46 PM.

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Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"

@Beans

What drives developers away are the fundamental issues of the OS. Developing for MorphOS (any Amiga system really), has more in common with developing for really low-end embedded systems than it has in common with developing for so called main stream desktop operating systems.

Why do you want improved OpenGL? Quake doesn't run fast enough? Or is it Blender? What else is there?

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B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC

@Beans

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No where near the same limitations. AND, those limitations are in place to assure compatibility with YOUR legacy software.

I don't see why they imposed these limitations in the first place. OS4 should have been a clean break. The fact is 68K applications are emulated anyway so why didn't they just create wrappers for all major Amiga APIs and lock it to its own address space? Even 68K fast and chip RAM is locked to the lower 64MB IIRC. And libraries have the 68K interface.

The other thing is they broke compatibility. They broke some 68K functions so they don't work, GetCC() for example. TrapCode exceptions are corrupted. And OpenDevice() calls can fail from missing 68K flags. Yet these flags are and have to be emulated in the 68K emulator. Huh?

And emulating 68K interrupts in PowerPC super mode? Seriously that is trying to hold it back. And endangering the native kernel.

If OS4 can't break away Big Pig style then it's their own fault. They tied it too close together. The native Exec or other libraries should not have been exposed to 68K, they should have been isolated. Yes that would have been more work but it would have provided more freedom now. When we need it most.

@Hypex

Hmmm, always thought the fact that it's tied together makes us what we are. It creates complication. Portability also creates complications. Endianess too. The changing of the times from one big machine to a variety of small and medium-sized machines which have different functions also make it more complicated. Amiga's approach has always been simplicty and directedness like simply exposing the kernel to 68k commands. What can you do when graphics and graphic cards drivers for example, are complicated as can be? you need some kind of agility, flexability and... tiedability? so we are also those with a connection to the past while looking forward. The question however is if the hardware have done the same as the software. I know that making any hardware go both Power and old school chipset compatibility (not neccesarily the cpu) is not only not so feasable, it what made for some unneccesary complications in the past with costly cards containing ppc and 68k. That said, at the age when everything is packed into a card (even hard drives with their controllers) and there are many complete solutions in small packages, one can expect some advancement here which would bring progress the Amiga way (after C) and alleviate some tension between the gloried past and the not bad to pretty good - present. I'm not just talking from a technical standpoint. If they managed to connect old record players to new sound systems, you think there will be possibilites where it's supposed to be much smarter. Can a raspberry or fpga be back ported to a modern A1 like they do with software and drivers? now that would be interesting.

@Srtest

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Srtest wrote: @Hypex ........ If they managed to connect old record players to new sound systems, you think there will be possibilites where it's supposed to be much smarter. Can a raspberry or fpga be back ported to a modern A1 like they do with software and drivers? now that would be interesting.

You mean something like THIS.

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Tinkering with computers.

@amigang

I'm avoiding facebook. It's sad if people uses that one only. Also AW.net moderators seems to be busy with their private lives and doesn't take part much here any more.

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Rock lobster bit me. My Workbench has always preferences. X1000 + AmigaOS4.1 FE
"Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." -Seymour Cray

@Signal

If you don't like Amiga change your hobby to other one.

Last edited by ppcamiga1 on 15-Dec-2016 at 09:51 PM.

@Hypex

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OS4 should have been a clean break.

Amiga Os 4 is what it should be.

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The fact is 68K applications are emulated anyway so why didn't they just create wrappers for all major Amiga APIs and lock it to its own address space?

It is not possible due how Amiga API was desgined. Amiga 68k software peek and poke into os and other apps.

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The other thing is they broke compatibility.

Well writen software works without problems.

@Tomppeli

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Tomppeli wrote: @amigang I'm avoiding facebook. It's sad if people uses that one only. Also AW.net moderators seems to be busy with their private lives and doesn't take part much here any more.

True no one is around to sort out my blacklisted IP address problem and A-EON don' care either! I think Amigaworld.net has been put out to pasture to be honest. A-EON don't even have Amigaworld as a category on their contact form!

... they have a category for Amiga.org however. It seems they have favourites

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"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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... they have a category for Amiga.org however. It seems they have favourites

Which is a little weird as there are more OS4 fans here than at Amiga.org (which I think has a more even balance of the various camps).

HOWEVER, the last time I was addressed by a moderator here (fairly recently) it was an AmigaKit employee, so you guys shouldn't feel TOO neglected.

You're not the red headed step children of the Amiga community.