@Pierre55

Your subject:
Quote:

Wanted "Browser for OS4"

My response:


You are of course right. It's unfortunate you can't use an OS4 browser for banking. I've gone the opposite way which is rarer. Years ago my bank used Java and I could only do banking with an OS9 PowerBook I had. It might have been with Internet Explorer for Mac of all things. Sometime later they dropped the Java requirement and went to Javascript. And so on OS4 it now works.

But it's not only us. Think of the OSX PPC Mac people as well. Yes I'm one of them. And I've been following modern browser engines compiled for "old" PPC technology. There is TenFourFox and Webkit Leopard. That's FireFox for OSX 10.4 Tiger. And Safari for OSX 10.5 Leopard. In use I have found TenFourFox too slow and Webkit useable. Even though TenFourFox features a Javascript JIT. And Webkit can be unstable. But I always preferred Safari.

These are browser engines running on an older, but in many ways a more advanced OS, than OS4. And they are able to compile them easily enough it seems. I think we need to dig into this resource. These projects are doing the ground work. We just need to set up a build environment to take the code from these projects and have it compile on OS4. We shouldn't need to do all the work. I think the key is having a build environment and up to date dependencies we need to maintain an up to date browser.

But I don't think even that is enough. My point here is, even with the above resource, doesn't mean we would have a good normal working browser. Going by my experience on OSX, having the latest browser tech doesn't mean all sites work. There are still sites using flash. And other sites only work on Intel or perhaps AMD. And the rest of the sites will only work on a little endian CPU. As an example I've tried hard to download from Mega because lots of stuff I wanted was on there. It just wouldn't work on any PPC browser. In the end I just downloaded the app for my phone. If Dropbox uses similar technology then odds on that will break as well.

So we are getting beyond the point where a browser is not a portable application. These days it is not. Most browsers needs to be working on a PC or other computer with an Intel endian or the code breaks. This is the force of Intel. They not only manage to dominate on the desktop but also dominate elsewhere by coercing the market into a particular hardware dependency that breaks on other CPU architectures.

Javascript JIT is an example of this. For some reason, even though they are compiling a script, things like tables it uses must be coded in little endian. It really shouldn't matter. The code should be WYSIWYG these days but we are behind any advancement like that in the computer world these days. But as long as any code works on Intel nobody cares. Except us.

So the browser problem is not getting any better. But is it getting worse? It would seem the way I described it! I don't think the problem has really changed in the last 20 years. I think for the Amiga it will always have a browser problem. It's just like one of those things in life. No matter what you debate on it. It's just the way it is. Some things never change. Ah, but don't you believe them.

Last edited by Hypex on 19-Jun-2017 at 03:47 PM.

Quote:

I think the problem is things like JavaVm, lot banks use Java plugin to login

JavaVM same as Flash are technologies that are used more and more rarely on the web. In my country all banks stopped using Java ~two years back.

Quote:

we need upgraded webkit or upgraded broweser who use geko (firefox min 51) note firefox from version 51.

Firefox is already leaving gecko behind switching to servo.

Closest projetct is TenFourFox (Firefox port to PPC Mac based on Firefox ESR 45)

@Pierre55

While it certainly would be helpful to have an up-to-date browser ported, in the meantime, one relatively practical solution is to use a $35 raspberry pi with Raspbian (Debian), and ownCloud, to be able to use Firefox or Chromium via remote desktop and replace box/dropbox with your own local server providing as many gb of storage as you give it on micro SD or external usb .

On the LAN at 100mbps xrdp/vnc are fast enough that with the browser in full screen mode in a 1280x1024 window, browsing almost seems to be using a native browser.

Odyssey works fine to upload/download files from ownCloud, and WebDAV or ftp can be used as well.

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I know its frustrating, one of the main reason and the tipping point for me getting a OS4/AmigaONE x1000 was it must have a modern web browser, at the time the very first beta of Firefox had been released and I thought great, the Amiga has got a real browser with real backing behind it, as we all know it didn't quite turn out as well as we all hoped, maybe it was too much to ask for from the Amiga scene to be able to keep up with web browser developments, which lets face it over the past few years, has been nuts, Firefox in 2010 was only up to version 4, now in space of seven years its up to version 54. But for a project that nearly got $7,000 backing it disappointing that we did'nt get a few more updates.

I was again really pleased when the Morphos developer of Odyssey said he would port his work to OS4, but again $7,000 of backing and again no major update since (now as I understand it not his fault there is a big problem with endianess) but still it frustrating to see that we seem to get two steps forwards, and then just as quickly as many steps back.

for now the browser we got is still ok for most things, but as we seen before I think once a browser is more than say 5 years old you get more and more things not working correctly, so it does need addressing sooner or later.

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@amigang

The 7k was not "backing" but a one time fee to open source Odyssey 1.23. This was clearly stated in the bounty description, and people who donated were aware of that.

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@amigang
I hope you realize that 7k in real world is 3(max 4) months of single programmer work ? I mean, we have for 7k tw port, and 7k for fab to cover his 3 years of work as because of him we have something usable at least.

If you ask me, its already too much labor of love, and tw, and odyssey.

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@kas1e

I agree in the grate scheme of things it not a lot of money for the work needed on project like these, and I appreciate it a labour of love, I mean its pretty obvious if your a skilled program working in the Amiga scene your not hear to get rich.

its just I supported both project in the hope it would create some kind of web browser solution for the Amiga and its kinda of not (at least not in the the long term), and I dont know if there is going to be a solution to that problem, without either the community say raising a lot more founds to temp programs to work on the problem, or accessing another OS for the solution, example placing amigaOS in a sandbox on linux so it could access Linux ports (like Amikit/Aros do it) or emulate a OS within amigaOS to run it, or finally have a remote desktop kind of solution, none of these are really great solution to the problem.

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@AlexC

That's an interesting idea you have. The Siamese systems provided similar features. I wonder at this point if a Pi or even basic quad-core 1Ghz Arm64 CPU used in a budget phone would have been a better choice on the X1000 than an XMOS chip. It could have been used as a powerful co-processor for useful things like being used to emulate AGA or other things like Paula or CIA. And could be used with the same idea to run Linux and display it on a another OS screen.

I have the ultimate solution for us all!!!

Simply, do as Richard Stallman (below extracted from his website stallman.org)

I am careful in how I use the Internet. I generally do not connect to web sites from my own machine, aside from a few sites I have some special relationship with. I usually fetch web pages from other sites by sending mail to a program (see git://git.gnu.org/womb/hacks.git) that fetches them, much like wget, and then mails them back to me. Then I look at them using a web browser, unless it is easy to see the text in the HTML page directly. I usually try lynx first, then a graphical browser if the page needs it (using konqueror, which won't fetch from other sites in such a situation).

@tonyw

Quote:

You seem to not know (or forget) the magnitude of the task. A "real" browser like Firefox is a HUGE undertaking and has hundreds of people maintaining it. It would not be exaggerating to say that the browser is bigger than the rest of AmigaOS.

Absolutely. Even NetSurf has taken a small team fifteen years to get to the point it is now, and as noted it still isn't enough for many websites due to various standards not yet implemented.

If you managed to get a similar-sized team together (I even doubt this is possible) for an Amiga-specific web browser, you are looking at fifteen years of work to get to where NetSurf is now, and in the meantime web standards and all other web browsers have moved on by fifteen years but at a faster pace, and you are unlikely to catch them.

It is better to expend effort updating what we have, or at a pinch port a new one (however it's worth looking at Timberwolf to decide if that is worth it, and remember you still need to keep it up-to-date which requires an amount of effort proportional to how many frontend-breaking changes are made)

Update first, port if you really can't update any of the current browsers, write a new one from scratch if you're a masochist.

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@BSzili

+1

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Sure! This is one of the reasons I dropped the idea of getting a NG-Amiga with OS4. If there would be a modern browser I wouldnt think twice before getting a new machine. And I am no coder so I can't help more than paying money to get a developer started.

Hopefully A-EON have something up their sleves, meanwhile I will happily continue using retro-machines.

If you want an up to date browser, go and write one, instead of complaining about how no one does it for you. This is especially true for small platforms like AOS.

Last edited by Thorham on 19-Jun-2017 at 10:49 PM.

@Thorham

Quote:

Thorham wrote: If you want an up to date browser, go and write one, instead of complaining about how no one does it for you. This is especially true for small platforms like AOS.

So! AmigaOS4 is only for the elite? The few who knows coding? Then I guess NG-Amiga isn't for me and for many other people.

@Thorham

If coding was as simple as your comment I will wrote a Browser overnight.

Bye!

@Am!ga

Quote:

So! AmigaOS4 is only for the elite? The few who knows coding? Then I guess NG-Amiga isn't for me and for many other people.

neither of amigoid(ng) systems including the genuine amiga is suited for everyday demands of a average contemporary consumer. either accept this limitation or leave it be. issuing demands is not going to solve anything.

Quote:

Am!ga wrote: So! AmigaOS4 is only for the elite? The few who knows coding? Then I guess NG-Amiga isn't for me and for many other people.

Yeah, okay, alright, you have a point.

Quote:

@wawa wrote: neither of amigoid(ng) systems including the genuine amiga is suited for everyday demands of a average contemporary consumer.

Which speaks volumes about the crappy state of software these days.

@Am!ga

Quote:

So! AmigaOS4 is only for the elite? The few who knows coding? Then I guess NG-Amiga isn't for me and for many other people.

Well it is not for just developers, but let's say it's easier to fix problems if you know how to.

As pointed out by most developers who has commented here, web browsers are big beasts that don't magically pop into existence, web browsers has become complicated programs, that has to deal with standards and changes that going back to early days of the internet. Keeping up with the rest of the world is big problem, this major task that might require a team of developers to keep up to date, sadly.

AmigaOS is not a mainstream operating system anymore, the market is tiny, even if you combine all the users from MorphOS/AROS/AmigaOS into one single market, the market for selling things or being able to work on It on regular 08:00 to 16:00 day job is almost unthinkable.

Developers who like to work on this a day job, will need to be creative to find ways to get a steady revenue stream.

* Selling advertisement space,
* Paypal donations.
* Selling product in store.
* Finding ways to get more users.
* Cross platform development target other operating systems as well,
like windows, mac and Linux.

Unless we find ways to get developers to spend more time to fix the impotent things, I think we are stuck with this problem.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jun-2017 at 05:34 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jun-2017 at 05:31 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Is it possible to port a browser for x11 enviroment and run through AmiCygnix?

Last edited by Am!ga on 21-Jun-2017 at 09:47 PM.

@Am!ga

AmiCygnix, is a frame buffer it's not fast. I think maybe you can use to get Linux app to redirect its GUI to AmiCygnix.

set DISPLAY=AMIGA-IP:0
export $DISPLAY

https://superuser.com/questions/325630/how-can-i-export-display-from-a-linux-terminal-to-a-windows-pc

Then you need to allow AmiCygnix, to accept incoming GUI's.

https://www.stitson.com/pub/book_html/node72.html

Kind of what you can do with Remote Desktop and Meta Frame or VNC.

I have not tested this, I try to avoid AmiCygnix , anyway I have PC that can do what I can do in AmiCygnix faster.

I think there used to be a OWB port for AmiCygnix, I'm not sure where to find it, I think its out of date as well.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 21-Jun-2017 at 11:09 PM.

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