@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @zidz once you emulate CPU’s, it becomes only a software issue, I bet you have space for PPC emulator in there, AmigaOS4 does not need the 68K emulator once the OS is loaded, the 680x0 is parked. it should be too hard to emulate, when you only need to emulate CPU, has anyone tried to adapt QEMU PPC soft core to it? Can someone get APUS booting i wonder? Not saying it’s a good idea or be earth shattering or anything.

Probably better if Hyperion just ported AmigaOS 4 to emu68.

Let’s face it, the PPC folk who are not on MorphOS are keen to move to System 54. AmigaOS 4 on emu68 would be a new market for Hyperion. And they would make more money than releasing Amiga OS 3.3 for slow 68k.

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@agami

Why - why oh why - would anyone want OS4 on 68k?!

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@kolla

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kolla wrote: @agami Why - why oh why - would anyone want OS4 on 68k?!

Just off the top of my head:
- The same reason they want the back-ported features in Amiga OS 3.2
- To run AmigaOS 4 apps without buying poor value for money and hard to obtain AmigaOS 4 compatible PPC hardware

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@agami

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- To run AmigaOS 4 apps without buying poor value for money and hard to obtain AmigaOS 4 compatible PPC hardware

Wouldn't that require PPC emulation on Arm emulating 68k?

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@BigD

if os4 is to be ported to 68k I guess a recompile of software would suffice, otherwise a reverse petunia might be used! :D

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@BigD


I'll check super stardust later this week

@agami

I would guess that AmigaOS 4 will stay on PPC, there are nor time or money to port it.
If Hyperion (and all supporting people) keeps to be amazing and gives us updates for AmigaOS it more likely to be enhances to 68k version as turbocards (like PiStorm) makes it feel like a more modern machine or a kind of AmigaOS 5 with support for other architecture.
Creating a AmigaOS for another architecture will most likely take years of effort if they don't piggyback on projects like AROS, which I to be honest would not mind as man power and money don't grow on trees.

There are a few projects around that keeps delivering AmigaOS 3.x compatible alternatives, I wonder what would happen if these people and Hyperion started to work together to bring a next official AmigaOS to the world.

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @agami Quote: - To run AmigaOS 4 apps without buying poor value for money and hard to obtain AmigaOS 4 compatible PPC hardware Wouldn't that require PPC emulation on Arm emulating 68k?

Recompiled apps.

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@zidz

Quote:

zidz wrote: @agami I would guess that AmigaOS 4 will stay on PPC, there are nor time or money to port it.

Oh I don’t expect Hyperion to actually port AmigaOS 4 to emu68.
I was saying it would be better to do that instead of running a QEMU-derived PPC emulation on one of the other Raspberry Pi cores.

The fact remains that the PiStorm32 + emu68 solution is providing A1200 users the fastest ever 68k accelerator. Faster than the Phase5 PPC accelerators of the late ‘90s. So now what?
Do we just run Quake 1 and other 68k PC game ports at an excellent frame rate and visual fidelity, or do we get to do something more meaningful with the new lease on life for emu68-based systems?

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@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: @agami Why - why oh why - would anyone want OS4 on 68k?! Just off the top of my head: - The same reason they want the back-ported features in Amiga OS 3.2

What features exactly?

I cannot think of anything with OS4 appealing enough that I would want it on 68k, it’s bad enough with the few OS4 “features” that have been “backported” - I’d rather see them removed again. I much rather see OS3 taking its own path, than backporting the enormous mess (legal, code, ownership and otherwise) that is OS4.

Quote:

- To run AmigaOS 4 apps without buying poor value for money and hard to obtain AmigaOS 4 compatible PPC hardware

Heh, so emulating powerpc with a 68k that is already emulated on ARM?

And what OS4 apps are so appealing that this is worth it?

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@agami

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agami wrote: The fact remains that the PiStorm32 + emu68 solution is providing A1200 users the fastest ever 68k accelerator. Faster than the Phase5 PPC accelerators of the late ‘90s. So now what?

Your answer to this is clearly “Let’s slow it down, and do it with the worst choice possible!!”

Quote:

Do we just run Quake 1 and other 68k PC game ports at an excellent frame rate and visual fidelity, or do we get to do something more meaningful with the new lease on life for emu68-based systems?

ARIX, obviously.

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@kolla

Haven't heard about Arix until now, the Arix Foundation website is down but the development/experimentation may be still ongoing?

Like i said above, many people are in different ways producing future versions of AmigaOS on their own.
If they (AROS, Hyperion, ARIX and so on) could just cooporate and bring something together...

Last edited by zidz on 30-Aug-2023 at 01:47 PM.

@kolla

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ARIX, obviously.

From AmigaLife.org, Michal Schulz comments:

Quote:

Quote: So am I understanding correctly that ARIX is an AmigaNG type system (forked from AROS) Don't name it so please. Instead, just call it an experiment. It may work, may not. I don't know how far it will go and what it will be. Nevertheless, it's an experiment I wanted to do many many years ago already (around the time when I was making the very first i386 native AROS). Quote: Will there be some compatibility method of running the old programs which don't work on the new system? AROS hosted running on it. Quote: And ARIX will make use of Linux hardware drivers so the Amiga community does not have to write them ourselves? Yes, but my aim is to use as little dependencies as possible. There is no init, no systemd. The process with pid 1 is ARIX itself. Therefore, currently ARIX has only following deps: 1. Linux kernel (it uses system calls directly whereas possible) 2. libc (for clone() system call, may be removed in future) 3. libdl (for dynamic libraries, OpenLibrary call, and for resolving of dynamic symbols)

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@zidz

Quote:

If they (AROS, Hyperion, ARIX and so on) could just cooporate and bring something together...

The closest we have is Michal Schulz and Claude working together on the PiStorm32 project IMHO! Gunnar seems to struggle to work with others at Apollo and AmigaKit/A-EON/ Hyperion struggle! RGL, Cloanto and PLAION/Koch Media did alright though with THEA500 Mini!

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@BigD

Haha, I understand.

It's what it is, I'm just happy that people still cares as much about this machine I love to continue to use.

@kolla

Quote:

Heh, so emulating powerpc with a 68k that is already emulated on ARM?

He he… well as some benchmark says, 680x0 is faster than ARM, so it emulated stuff many times on top of etch other it should double the Mhz

No, that not my suggestion, kick out 68K emulation and run PowerPC emulation, and let it take over the machine, once AmigaOS4 or Linux APUS boots, they don’t need 680x0 CPU.

I also extend the idea to DOSBox games, and PS1 games, as well. Of course, with more of the HW you need to emulate the more Amiga becomes dumb terminal.

But for AmigaOS4.1 Classic (for BlizzardPPC and CyberStrom PPC emulation it should be pretty simple.)

Set up as a dual boot, triple boot system.
So you switch back to normal mode, when ypu want to play whdload games, and classic stuff.

Quote:

And what OS4 apps are so appealing that this is worth it?

I think some are. I think you struggle to runs things without 3D support, or hardware acceleration.
But if ARM chip can emulate 300-500 Mhz 68060 it can emulated 300-500 PowerPC as well.
perhaps it can be fun to play wipeout or Heretic II, The Feeble Files or some of this games.

Wonder how fast it will run blender with software 3D, LOL..

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@NutsAboutAmiga

The part I don't get is... why would I want OS4? I have quite a few system capable of OS4, but due to all the clutter and bugs, I don't use them for OS4 other than to check some random odd thing once or twice per year. On the other hand, I use OS3/m68k pretty every day on a whole range of systems.

So what's going on here - the OS4 community is jealous because of Emu68? :D

Ask Hyperion for the damn obvious - a port of OS4 to ARM and Raspberry Pi, that makes a heck lot more sense than porting OS4 to 68k.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

688060 is limited by a 32-bit front-side bus which is not the case for ARM Cortex A53 and A72.

With Quake demo3,
PRI 3A+'s ARM Cortex A53 @ 1.4 Ghz stock with Emu68 is about Pentium II 266 to 300 Mhz scalar. PRi 3A+ can overclock to 1.7 GHz without triggering an overclock warning.

PRI 4B+'s ARM Cortex A72 @ 1.5 Ghz stock with Emu68 is about Pentium III 600 Mhz scalar.
I overclocked my PRI 4B+'s ARM Cortex A72 to 1.7 Ghz

688060 100Mhz is like Pentium Overdrive 83 Mhz which is about Pentium 75 Mhz.

Running C= AGA chipset with Quake 320x200 demo3, it reached 50 fps with PRI 4B+'s ARM Cortex A72 1.6 Ghz.

Multi-core Emu68 support is available.

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PC's Blender BVH raytracing acceleration has up to PCIe 4.0 16 lanes (32 GB/s per direction I/O which is not like PCIe 1.0 4 lanes (1 GB/s per direction) or PCIe 1.0 16 lanes (4GB/s per direction). PCIe 4.0 limitation is on current GPUs, not the PC PCIe 5 chipset.

PC driver's JIT LLVM infrastructure is backed by a very fast CPU with fat out-of-order processing and vector math capability.

The entry-level Ryzen 5 7500F Zen 4 (6C/12T, PCIe 5) or Core i3 13100F Raptor Lake (4C/8T, PCIe 5) will hammer PowerCrap.

PC has access to NVIDIA's ADA generation raytracing capability which doesn't exist for PowerCrap (including POWER 9).

On Linux, RX 7900 XTX's Blender BVH RT acceleration (via HIP) is only at the RTX 3090 OpenCL level (Ref 1)

Reference
1. https://www.phoronix.com/review/rx7900-blender-opencl/2

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@BigD

Michal schulz comments:
Quote:

Quote: And ARIX will make use of Linux hardware drivers so the Amiga community does not have to write them ourselves? Yes, but my aim is to use as little dependencies as possible. There is no init, no systemd. The process with pid 1 is ARIX itself. Therefore, currently ARIX has only following deps: 1. Linux kernel (it uses system calls directly whereas possible) 2. libc (for clone() system call, may be removed in future) 3. libdl (for dynamic libraries, OpenLibrary call, and for resolving of dynamic symbols)

Good idea. If I were in charge of the AmigaOS 4 project, then I'd be considering something similar. Using a stripped down Linux kernel is one option. The other would be some kind of Linux compatibility layer (like FreeBSD uses for porting Linux drivers).

It'll be interesting to see what happens with ARIX...

Hans

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga The part I don't get is... why would I want OS4? ...

You do understand that there are other people in the world, and that they do not all think the way you do?

You might not care about AmigaOS 4 because you're already bored with it. I don't care about it because of all the Hyperion and A-EON association. But there are others that do care about it. And there are also many people who would buy it tomorrow if they could get an entry level AmigaOS 4 compatible entry-level PPC system for less than €500.

While there isn't much new software development for AmigaOS 4, there is certainly more going on there than for Amiga OS 3.
When someone tells me they're using their AmigaOS 4 system as a daily driver, I can almost believe them. When someone tells me they're using their Amiga OS 3 or AROS 68k system as a daily driver, I call bullshit.

And yes, the obvious thing for Hyperion would be to port Amiga OS 4 to ARM. But it seems that outside the courtroom Hyperion have given up on tough projects, so the easier and quicker port would be to target emu68.

Which is all just trading in hypothetical scenarios, because Hyperion are most likely using what few resources they have to cash in with Amiga OS 3.3 in the not too distant future.

I too am looking forward to ARIX, but @michalsc will not have that ready for a while yet.

Last edited by agami on 31-Aug-2023 at 04:50 AM.

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