@dan.hutch

The first few versions of OS X the finder was very sluggish and a few things were not so good. But the since OS X v10.2 it's ready for prime time. OS X now even runs fine on my 400 MHz G4 PowerBook with only 384MB RAM.

OS X will run great on the Mini, so will the next version, it's been getting faster not slower with each update. Also the Mini will run these included apps fine:

Quicken 2005
AppleWorks
iCalendar
Mail.app
Safari
Address Book
Sherlock
iMovie HD
iDVD HD
iPhoto
iTunes
Garage Band

Last edited by BukkY on 17-Jan-2005 at 11:10 AM.
Last edited by BukkY on 17-Jan-2005 at 11:09 AM.

@dan.hutch

Maybe you were trying OSX Cheeta or Puma. Then I could understand it. But there is a TON of difference between the early OSX and the current OSX Panther, both in features, comfort and speed.

I used Jaguar briefly before moving to Panther, which probably is 3-5 times faster and much nicer to use. It made me move my old Powermac 333 Mhz from a curious thing I'd try once in a while to be my primary desktop. Yes, I feel more productive on that than on my WinXP 2.6 GHz machine.

It's in the subtle details that it improves, not the big overall appearance like Windows does between versions. There are usually around 200-300 small improvements between bigger versions of OSX and each version has 6-8 "servicepacks".

This is also a nice trait of the Mac: Things don't change too much. Things are integrated smartly rather than slapped on. Check out the Windows control panel in Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP or try to set up networking on each of those. It's wildly different in each version.

Apple usually don't fix what ain't broken.

Another rarity is that OSX rarely slows down between versions, but rather speed up. They do a lot of optimizations and polish on existing code rather than add a few more monitoring services or useless crap to bog it down. A good example is the Preview application. Browsing PDFs in it, is ridiculously fast compared to using Adobe Reader under Windows. I can feel a good speed difference between OSX 10.3.0 and 10.3.7.

I really think you should give it another try.

@HMK

Quote:

early OSX and the current OSX Panther, both in features, comfort and speed.

Good to hear the OS X.1 that I used was definitely not efficent or speedy.


Quote:

Check out the Windows control panel in Windows 95, 98, 2000 and XP or try to set up networking on each of those. It's wildly different in each version

Unfortunately that's not a fair comparison. Win XP vs Win XP sp1 vs WinXP sp2 would be akin to OS X vs X.1 vs X.2. Win98 vs WinXP is more akin to OS 9 vs OS X in the Mac world.

@Intuitioned

Quote:

It is very similar in shape to the Mac Mini but more serious looking.

If by "serious" you mean "rather ugly", then yes. It is more serious looking.

Much like a four year olds scriblings next to the paintings of Dali. *runs and ducks*

Didn't read the whole thread. But I'll get a mac-mini too (just ordered today). The price is not that cheap actually, but size and also provided software (you get full iLife'05 too) are worth the price, IMHO.

Of course it also has weak points, hard to upgrade etc., but I thought about what I need it for (mostly some photoshop work and better browsers) and for that it's very well suited and perfect addition to my Peg2 with MorphOS. And it does not need much space on desk too. ;)

regards,
tokai

_________________
tokai.binaryriot.org binaryriot.de

@tokai

Quote:

Didn't read the whole thread. But I'll get a mac-mini too (just ordered today).

Well then....No Amiga 2 for you !

HA !

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

I did a quick comparisson against a Dell. This is what I came up with...

DELL: Costs £329 inc. VAT + delivery
MAC: Costs £339 inc. VAT inc. delivery

DELL: Celeron 2.6GHz with 128kb cache
MAC: 1.25GHz G4 with 512kb cache (faster than the Celery)

DELL: 128MB RAM
MAC: 256MB RAM

DELL: No Firewire
MAC: 1 firewire 400 port

DELL: Intel (very slow) graphics using shared RAM
MAC: 64MB ATI Radeon 9200

DELL: 40GB HDD
MAC: 40GB HDD

DELL: CDROM Drive
MAC: Combo drive (CD-RW and DVD-ROM)

DELL: Optional monitor
MAC: Optional monitor

DELL: Huge non-custom PC case
MAC: Tiny, almost silent custom designed case (6" x 6" x 2")

DELL: Windows XP Home (yuck)
MAC: OS X Panther 10.3


I want to get a Mac Mini to put in my car.

Last edited by nomore on 17-Jan-2005 at 05:58 PM.

@Hammer

Quote:

Apparently you missed MP3 spoofing virus (regarding to your zero virus remarks).

...which never appeared "in the wild," as they said. But I can see this is getting to be a pointless argument about semantics....

Quote:

You just contradicted yourself.

Not really; I'll wait until I hear about a real OS X virus before I bother with AV software at all...they would have to update virus definitions anyway, so what's the difference?

@dan-hutch

Yeah, Mac OS 10.3 is quite an improvement over earlier versions (10.2 was apparently quite an improvement over 10.1); it's the only other OS aside from AmigaOS that I much like using. Not that it's perfect at all, but it's less annoying than XP....

--Eric

@nomore

Quote:

I did a quick comparisson against a Dell. This is what I came up with...

Don't forget the Dell comes with a keyboard and mouse it's extra on the Mini Mac.

WOW THIS HAS GOT TO BE THE MOST BIGGEST FORUM EVER !

_________________
Add ME!! http://myspace.com/thisis_sam

@dan.hutch

Quote:

PC hardware doesn't hold any value, you buy it and a year later its worth half what it was

Over 2 years ago I bought a mini-iTX system comprising an EPIA-800 motherboard and a Chyung Fang mini-iTX case.

Oddly enough, despite the dollar collapsing since then, to buy the hardware NEW these days would cost MORE than it did when I purchased it.

So, that was a case of weird CRAP x86 hardware actually rising in value, hence resale value isn't lost that much.

@nomore

Correction:

MAC: *32*MB ATI Radeon 9200

64 would have been nicer but I've lived with 32 on several gfx cards in my Cube...

@BrianK


A budget keyboard and mouse which you can pick up for £15 from most retailers.

Apple cut down on the external periferals to deliver better internal components.

Either way, the Mac Mini is much better value for money.

@eric5h5

Quote:

...which never appeared "in the wild," as they said. But I can see this is getting to be a pointless argument about semantics....

Refer to http://www.sophos.com/virusinfo/articles/renepo.html

Quote:

Not really; I'll wait until I hear about a real OS X virus before I bother with AV software at all...they would have to update virus definitions anyway, so what's the difference?

Your choice i.e. MacFormat anti-virus scans their cover CDs.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@nomore
Quote:

nomore wrote: I did a quick comparisson against a Dell. This is what I came up with... DELL: Costs £329 inc. VAT + delivery MAC: Costs £339 inc. VAT inc. delivery

This is a good point. In Canada, a miniMac is $629. A cheap Dell P4 box is $599. But shipping is another $99, meaning the real cost of Dell's offering is $698. The Celeron version is $449. The difference there is $75 less for Dell. But it isn't like Dell is offering shipping at their cost either...

Quote:

DELL: Celeron 2.6GHz with 128kb cache MAC: 1.25GHz G4 with 512kb cache (faster than the Celery)

Another point: There is no real economy line for the G4. It's either a G4, or it's not. G4 machines should be compared with the Intel P4 machines. Apple has limited sources for CPUs, so it is only fair to limit the x86 box to Intel parts.

Quote:

DELL: 128MB RAM MAC: 256MB RAM DELL: No Firewire MAC: 1 firewire 400 port

Memory is nice. Stuff a 512M stick into the Mac, and it'll be happy.

Firewire is a nice toy. If you want to move DV around, USB just doesn't cut it. Besides, FW external drives are really nice. You can even get FW enabled scanners.

Quote:

DELL: 40GB HDD MAC: 40GB HDD DELL: CDROM Drive MAC: Combo drive (CD-RW and DVD-ROM)

Mass Storage. Just can't get enough. Hard drive getting crowded? Just buy an external FW or USB case and a bigger drive, and swap them. For the extra money, you may as well order the SuperDrive so you can write DVD-R and -RW discs. Big storage, low cost.

Quote:

DELL: Optional monitor MAC: Optional monitor DELL: Huge non-custom PC case MAC: Tiny, almost silent custom designed case (6" x 6" x 2") DELL: Windows XP Home (yuck) MAC: OS X Panther 10.3

Let's not forget iLife, iTunes, and some other bundled apps. How much would it cost to buy the equivalent from Dell and MS?

No monitor? Big deal if you already have a VGA monitor laying around. No keyboard or mouse? You think Dell will ship you something better than a generic $5 keyboard and $2 mouse? If they include a monitor, it'll be something cheap too.

Dell revolutionized the way to sell computers cheap. Apple has managed to out do them in the cost control dept. Apple makes more money per unit than Dell.

Excellent post, overall.

But comparing Apple to Dell isn't really fair.

Why?

Dell has no retail presence. Apple does, through it's dealers and their own corporate stores. Dell can afford to lose money, or sell at cost.

Apple has to set a price that will allow their dealers to make some money. Typically the dealers sell for the price Apple sets online, or less. But they need to sell them at a price that after shipping them to a dealer, the dealer can still make some money.

Dell doesn't have to worry about that. Dell also doesn't have to worry about crediting dealers for product when Dell decides to drop the price. Apple has to be very careful not to p!$$ off their dealer channel. Which affects Apple's ability to set prices.

But that is part of the game. Claim the Mac costs too much, then dig up some lame x86 box running Linux for $300. Then claim it is "equivilent".

@nomore

Quote:

MAC: 64MB ATI Radeon 9200

Shouldn't this be 32MB ATI Radeon 9200?

Market dynamics is slightly different in the US i.e. HP (USA) has AMD Sempr0n based SR1000Z model to ~match Apple?s MacMini. It includes 2 Firewire 400 ports.

In the UK, ACER's Aspire T120E(Athlon XP 2600+) would be closest to Mac-Mini's £339 price point. It includes 1 Firewire 400 port.

Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jan-2005 at 11:15 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jan-2005 at 11:09 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jan-2005 at 11:01 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@nomore

Quote:

Apple cut down on the external periferals to deliver better internal components.

Yeah that's one way to think of it...

Another way is Apple is selling a desktop computer for a $499 US dollars marketing price point. There's more then a few people complaining that a keyboard/mouse combo doesn't come standard, thus seeing this as a hidden cost.

When you get your cheap £15 make sure it has keys that can operate as the closed and open Apple keys.

Of course on the plus side OSX can use a multibutton mouse. So, people might buy a multibutton and finally realize there's some nice things you can do that the standard Mac 1-button hinders you with.

@nomore

Reference
1. http://shopping.kelkoo.co.uk/b/a/ss_acer_amd.html
2. http://www.ebuyer.com/customer/products/index.html?action=c2hvd19wcm9kdWN0X292ZXJ2aWV3&product_uid=64658

Since ACER is one of the top 5 PC vendors in Euro-land

ACER: Costs £346.54 inc VAT (from ACER's ebuyerco.uk)
MAC: Costs £339 inc. VAT inc. delivery

ACER: AMD Athlon XP 2600+(1) (faster than Celeron 2.6GHz with 128kb cache)
MAC: 1.25GHz G4 with 512kb cache (faster than the Celery)

Notes(1): Known AXP 2600+ models
AXP Barton core @1.9Ghz, L2 512KB FSB333,
AXP Thoroughbred-B core @2.08Ghz, L2 256KB FSB333,
AXP Thorton core @2.08Ghz, L2 256KB FSB333,

AMD?s K7 model numbers easily aims for Pentium IV Northwood (with 512MB L2 cache) with 533FSB not PIV Celerons.
---

ACER: PC2700 256MB RAM
MAC: PC2700 256MB RAM

ACER: 1 firewire 400 port
MAC: 1 firewire 400 port
Notes: ACER solution beats Mac-Mini when it comes ports i.e.
6 in 1 Card Reader.
6 USB 2.0.
2 microphone inputs.
Legacy Ports.
---

ACER: VIA KM400 S3 UniChrome (Up to 64MB shared).
MAC: 32MB ATI Radeon 9200.

ACER: 40GB HDD Desktop.
MAC: 40GB HDD Laptop.

ACER: DVD-RW Drive.
MAC: Combo drive (CD-RW and DVD-ROM).

ACER: Optional monitor.
MAC: Optional monitor.
Notes: ACER Includes Keyboard, Mouse, Speakers.
---

ACER: ACER PC case.
MAC: Tiny, almost silent custom designed case (6" x 6" x 2")
Notes: ACER's Expansion slots: 3X PCI, 1XAGP.
---

ACER: Windows XP Home.
MAC: OS X Panther 10.3.

Feature weighting is dependant on customer?s on priorities.

Apple MacMini is manufactured by Foxconn (the biz entity behind Leadtek and WinFast brands).

Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jan-2005 at 12:22 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jan-2005 at 12:18 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jan-2005 at 11:52 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 17-Jan-2005 at 11:49 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer



That Acer is one ugly PC.

I should think that with Apple's completely custom design, they will have better build quality.

There are other costs involved with Windows based PCs, such as time and effort involved with the removal of Spyware/Reinstallation. Antivirus software... not forgetting that the Mac comes with iLife. There is no Windows entry-level software which is such high quality and as highly integrated as the iLife suite.


Just as addition. Most average PC uses I know never upgrade their computers. They don't seem to change their computing habbits much. Some are only just starting to use digital cameras. In this kind of scenario, I think the Mac Mini will be the best purchase because it offers all they want and more in a finely crafted manner, unlike the Frakenstien Windows/PC solutions.

Last edited by nomore on 18-Jan-2005 at 12:34 AM.

@terminator

Quote:

Apple has limited sources for CPUs, so it is only fair to limit the x86 box to Intel parts.

Refer to http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=P1534

Quote:

Let's not forget iLife, iTunes, and some other bundled apps. How much would it cost to buy the equivalent from Dell and MS?

Refer to HP's bundled software with SR1000Z(USA) AMD based model i.e. PC vendor VS PC vendor.

Quote:

Dell revolutionized the way to sell computers cheap. Apple has managed to out do them in the cost control dept. Apple makes more money per unit than Dell.

In the Chinese value end PC market, Dell was been driven out by PC vendors with AMD PC product lines. PC vendors involved in said market are Lenovo, Founder Group and HP.

Reference.
http://hardware.silicon.com/desktops/0,39024645,39123182,00.htm

Dell is an easy target.

Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jan-2005 at 12:50 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)