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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
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saimo 
Reality check
Posted on 13-Dec-2006 23:34:57
#1 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2382
From: Unknown

I can't believe we are at this point. In the ocean of debates about AmigaOS 4 in the form we know it today, things got so mixed up that finally, these days, we are witnessing an attempt at convincing the *community* that AmigaOS 4 is (part/relative of) AmigaDE. At first it may sound crazy, but then I realize that the incredible amount of discussions and direction changes actually make the situation foggy even to who has been following the whole story since the very beginning. So let's make a reality check.
This is in short what I can recall.

AmigaDE was conceived *before* anybody even thought of entrusting Hyperion with the task of producing AmigaOS 4. AmigaDE was meant to be much more than an Operating System: a "Digital Environment", a new concept, a brand-new paradigm of operating and using computers. I think it was Fleecy the first who publically exposed the vision behind the "DE". As time went by, this dream never materialized, except for the minimal and partial incarnation represented by AmigaAnywhere. Things, names, products changed, but the "DE" vision always remained a precise entity which never found a full, real embodiment; today we can see traces of it in the AOS5 mentioned by McEwen, but still the vision remains... a vision.
On the other hand, we have AmigaOS 4: a real, tangible product*. When it was announced, it almost looked to me like a step backwards: AmigaDE was so much ahead and different that, from a strictly technical point of view, I could not see it as a middle stage towards AmigaDE (of course, this does not mean that AmigaOS 4 was not welcomed nor that it did not have any reason to exist). Nowadays, after years of hard development, AmigaOS 4 is not only far from that vision, but it does not even point in that direction. AmigaOS 4 is "just" an Operating System. Or better, the foundation for a full-fledged, modern, up-to-date, official Amiga OS. At most, AmigaOS 4 can be thought of as the foundation for the future AmigaDE - but that's how far the relationship between AmigaOS 4 and AmigaDE goes.

No matter how you call the two systems, they are - and have always been - two totally different things.

saimo

*please refrain from comments like "Yeah, so tangible that it cannot be bought": this thread is not about AOS4 availability.

edit: grammar nonsense and useless stuff - I'm tired... I hope it's readable...

Last edited by saimo on 14-Dec-2006 at 12:17 AM.

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tonyw 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 0:00:08
#2 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3226
From: Sydney (of course)

@saimo

If I recall correctly (back from about 2000?), the outcry from the Kommunity about DE being not what we wanted caused Amiga Inc to say "OK, then, just to be nice to you guys and to make sure that everyone stays around until DE is finished, we'll do one LAST version of Amiga OS, we'll call it OS4".

The task of upgrading OS4 from OS3.9 was originally given to Haage and Partner (the writers of OS 3.5 and 3.9), but after some disagreement between AI and H&P, the job was taken away from them and languished until Eyetech and Hyperion got together. They convinced AI to form the tri-partite that produced the A1s and OS4.

I don't remember exactly when in that sequence Bernie Meyer et al released Amithlon, but I do remember McEwen saying "This is going to save us eighteen months!". That comment suggests that there was an intent to port AOS to some platform other than 68K, possibly to the platform-agnostic DE/AA.

In short, DE came first, then OS4 was started to stop people from drifting away.

Last edited by tonyw on 14-Dec-2006 at 12:02 AM.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 0:09:54
#3 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2382
From: Unknown

@tonyw

Quote:
If I recall correctly (back from about 2000?), the outcry from the Kommunity about DE being not what we wanted caused Amiga Inc to say "OK, then, just to be nice to you guys and to make sure that everyone stays around until DE is finished, we'll do one LAST version of Amiga OS, we'll call it OS4".

Yes, that's right. It was definitely one of the major aspects of the reaction of the Kommunity (I guess the "K" came from Fleecy's own thing... can't remember its name, but it was a sort of community-based movement he founded after Amiga was abandoned once again - IIRC it was Gateway's turn).
edit: yes, it was back in 2000... and things got started (K-thing and all) in 1999 or even earlier...

Quote:
The task of upgrading OS4 from OS3.9 was originally given to Haage and Partner (the writers of OS 3.5 and 3.9), but after some disagreement between AI and H&P, the job was taken away from them and languished until Eyetech and Hyperion got together. They convinced AI to form the tri-partite that produced the A1s and OS4.

I think this is quite accurate as well.

Quote:
I don't remember exactly when in that sequence Bernie Meyer et al released Amithlon, but I do remember McEwen saying "This is going to save us eighteen months!". That comment suggests that there was an intent to port AOS to some platform other than 68K, possibly to the platform-agnostic DE/AA.

Yeah, Amithlon must have happened somewhere in between... I can't tell.

Quote:
In short, DE came first, then OS4 was started to stop people from drifting away

Fully agreed.

saimo

Last edited by saimo on 14-Dec-2006 at 12:12 AM.

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Benji 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 0:18:15
#4 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2003
Posts: 573
From: Cheltenham or London, UK

If I also recall correctly Fleecy came up with an x86 hardware reference platform that was meant for developers to develop... Amiga DE software... Until OS4 was out for the rest of the Amiga community to develop/produce "DE" content on, which was why OS4 was started - as you say to keep existing users happy, rather than be part of the "DE" "Anywhere" plan...

Wasnt the sticking point the fact that TAO didnt have a PPC port, so there would never be a PPC version of DE until that was solved? If someone paid for a contract for that then they didnt do their homework!

I have an email from Bill McEwan way back in 2002:
Quote:

"Its AmigaDE powered with intent(TM) from Tao Group enables applications to run unchanged on a broad range of processors including ARM,StrongARM, Intel X-Scale, MIPS, Intel x86, Motorola 68K and Hitachi SH. It can run hosted on a wide variety of operating systems including Linux, Embedded Linux, Windows 95, 98, 2000, NT, and Pocket PC."

Notice PPC not listed as a platform for the "new" Amiga, and when I asked him why he gave a very simple answer...

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Benji 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 0:22:19
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2003
Posts: 573
From: Cheltenham or London, UK

From an update in 2000 - doesnt get much clearer than this:

http://web.archive.org/web/20010201075500/www.amiga.com/corporate/112200-mcewen.shtml

Quote:
Will there be a 4.0? This really depends on the sales of OS 3.9. You see, we did not have any plans for another version of the Classic OS. But we continued to receive requests, and because we listen to community, we decided to move ahead with Haage and Partner on this project. If OS 3.9 sells well, and we see a continuing need to produce for the existing Classic Amiga platform, then there is a strong possibility of a 4.0.

It is in your hands.

No matter what happens, AmigaDE is still moving ahead quickly and we look forward to delivering another version of the Amiga Software Development Kit (SDK) with new features and enhancements. In the coming weeks, we will be adding 3D and sound to AmigaDE.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 0:32:23
#6 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2382
From: Unknown

@Benji

Quote:
From an update in 2000 - doesnt get much clearer than this:

Good find. I'm sure there are also other "executive updates" dealing with the issues.

--

I've remembered the name of Fleecy's K-thing: KOSH.
Official site
Google for "KOSH Fleecy"

saimo

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BobW 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 2:05:11
#7 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Apr-2004
Posts: 275
From: Central, NY USA

@saimo

Some interesting docs on this site:

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/5thamiga.html

Some interesting things here. On a June 3rd 2000 press release they say the following:

Quote:
The Amiga OS is capable of being self-hosted, and sitting on top of other operating systems. A single application is capable of running on X86, Power PC, M.core, ARM, StrongArm, MIPs, SH3/4, and others. In a hosted environment the new Amiga runs on versions of Linux, Windows 95,98/NT, Windows CE, OS/9, QNX4, and others to be announced.


It's pretty clear that at least at that point AmigaDE was what they considered AmigaOS. Then as you moved forward in time it gets fuzzy. Then in April 2001 AmigaDE and Amiga OS are clearly separate.

Quote:
Since we already have the AmigaOS, are moving forwards with AmigaOS compatible new hardware, and have a vast legion of people who still want to use, develop for and purchase, the AmigaOS, we have decided that instead of bringing out a standalone AmigaDE for this market, we will take the best of the new and integrate it with the best of the old.


Much of the change was driven by the fact that so many in the community wanted something that was derivative of the classic OS.

Last edited by BobW on 14-Dec-2006 at 02:07 AM.

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stew 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 4:48:06
#8 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2003
Posts: 453
From: Unknown

@BobW

"It's pretty clear that at least at that point AmigaDE was what they considered AmigaOS. Then as you moved forward in time it gets fuzzy. Then in April 2001 AmigaDE and Amiga OS are clearly separate"


Since Amiga Inc. reached an agreement with Thendic Electronic Components (Genesi) toward the end of 2000, how clear is the claim of each side?
Looks pretty muddy to me. I guess that is why lawyers get involved.

Stew

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 7:42:52
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@saimo

The whole argumentation in this case builds upon the situation back when the contract was signed. Remember "The Amiga is dead, Long Live Amiga" and the following communications? The termination of the Amiga as we know it (when they dubbed the 68k hardware and OS as "classic" instead of "Amiga"), in favor of this new OS that replaced it (yes OS as in Operating System). That is what they sold, and that is what Thendic/Genesi licensed, including the updates. This is what their case builds on as far as I understand.

Sit back and see what happens. Who knows, maybe in a best case scenario, this could mean an opening for OS4 and Hyperion?

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 9:19:23
#10 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2382
From: Unknown

@BobW

Quote:
Quote:
The Amiga OS is capable of being self-hosted, and sitting on top of other operating systems. A single application is capable of running on X86, Power PC, M.core, ARM, StrongArm, MIPs, SH3/4, and others. In a hosted environment the new Amiga runs on versions of Linux, Windows 95,98/NT, Windows CE, OS/9, QNX4, and others to be announced.

It's pretty clear that at least at that point AmigaDE was what they considered AmigaOS. Then as you moved forward in time it gets fuzzy. Then in April 2001 AmigaDE and Amiga OS are clearly separate.

The problem is that focus on the name ("OS") and not on the meaning of the description given. That "Amiga OS" is said to be self-hosted or hosted on a number of platforms and able to run the same application on a number of different CPUs... is that what AOS4 does? What it was planned to do? No. The product described there is something else. Despite the (mis)use of the (many) names, AmigaOS 4 and AmigaDE have a radically different nature.

saimo

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Yssing 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 9:28:31
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 1062
From: Unknown

Interresting, its pretty much how I remenber it.

But I do think that MOS was mentioned in the beginning as the replacement. But it also got messed up... Or am I remembering wrongly?

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 9:32:10
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2382
From: Unknown

@stew

Quote:
Since Amiga Inc. reached an agreement with Thendic Electronic Components (Genesi) toward the end of 2000, how clear is the claim of each side?
Looks pretty muddy to me. I guess that is why lawyers get involved.

To those who have followed the whole story it is not. And note that, back then, it was not even to the judge (indeed, it was precisely through lawyers that the confusion was first risen).
You can find the quote reported by BobW and that puzzles you in this context, where it's crystal clear that the system being described is based on Tao's technology and is radically different from AOS4.

saimo

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 9:44:34
#13 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2382
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
The whole argumentation in this case builds upon the situation back when the contract was signed. Remember "The Amiga is dead, Long Live Amiga" and the following communications? The termination of the Amiga as we know it (when they dubbed the 68k hardware and OS as "classic" instead of "Amiga"), in favor of this new OS that replaced it (yes OS as in Operating System). That is what they sold, and that is what Thendic/Genesi licensed, including the updates.

No. Thendic licensed *AmigaDE*, which is *not* AOS4 (see all of the above).

Quote:
Sit back and see what happens.

Why should I? I've been doing it for years, but now I find too disgusting that the lie "AmigaOS 4 is AmigaDE" is being hammered also into the community's head, especially considering that there seem to be people who are not well aware of the situation and thus may get easily manipulated.
I see this history rewrite also as an insult at the community.

Quote:
Who knows, maybe in a best case scenario, this could mean an opening for OS4 and Hyperion?

This thread is not another of those endless break-AInc's-license-scheme / port-AOS4-to-X/ etc.

saimo

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 9:49:59
#14 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2382
From: Unknown

@Yssing

Quote:
But I do think that MOS was mentioned in the beginning as the replacement. But it also got messed up... Or am I remembering wrongly?

I've heard this as well, but, unless my memory is failing me, only as second-hand news - I mean, I have never read any official statement about it. I do remember somebody claiming that the reason why AInc, at some point, was confident that they could release AOS4 very soon was because *that* AOS4 was supposed to be (built on) MOS.

saimo

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adiaux 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 10:20:48
#15 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:
@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
The whole argumentation in this case builds upon the situation back when the contract was signed. Remember "The Amiga is dead, Long Live Amiga" and the following communications? The termination of the Amiga as we know it (when they dubbed the 68k hardware and OS as "classic" instead of "Amiga"), in favor of this new OS that replaced it (yes OS as in Operating System). That is what they sold, and that is what Thendic/Genesi licensed, including the updates.

No. Thendic licensed *AmigaDE*, which is *not* AOS4 (see all of the above).

Quote:
Sit back and see what happens.

Why should I? I've been doing it for years, but now I find too disgusting that the lie "AmigaOS 4 is AmigaDE" is being hammered also into the community's head, especially considering that there seem to be people who are not well aware of the situation and thus may get easily manipulated.
I see this history rewrite also as an insult at the community.


You still don't understand. No-one is claiming that the code in Hyperions OS and the code in Tao's OS is one and the same. It's not about the current situation, it's about what Thendic/Genesi licensed *back then*, and that was Amiga's new OS, including any future updates. It's about *year 2000* (or whatever) definitions.

Quote:
Quote:
Who knows, maybe in a best case scenario, this could mean an opening for OS4 and Hyperion?

This thread is not another of those endless break-AInc's-license-scheme / port-AOS4-to-X/ etc.


You should really try to see the possibilities this could lead to if things goes well. Could make you a little less angry!

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hatschi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 10:30:54
#16 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@saimo

No idea why you get so worked up about this, but from what I can make out of the woolly announcements and ideas (that you call "vision" and "precise entity") is that once AOS5 was reached, AOS4 and AmigaDE would be integrated/merged/combined as a single OS-like product. So yes, AmigaDE and OS4 were never the same since AmigaDE was often referred to as a follow-up product with AmigaOS being "merged" into AmigaDE. "Follow-up" only because at that time, the OS4-release was announced to be imminent (2002).
But - the more Fleecy/Gary/Bill-announcements you read from the last 6 years, the more fluffy and woolly their thoughts appear.

"Amiga Digital Living Tangent Development", "AOS4.5/AG2" "AG3", "AOS 4.2", "AOS5", "AmigaDE", "Amiga Digital Repositories that provide a single universal layer", "Amiga Digital Content Engine", "Domestic Digital Habitat (TM) concept", "different implementation subsets of Tao's Intent, targeted at the unique usability matrix of each target demographic" - who cares?

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hatschi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 10:39:49
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@saimo

Quote:
I've been doing it for years, but now I find too disgusting that the lie "AmigaOS 4 is AmigaDE" is being hammered also into the community's head, especially considering that there seem to be people who are not well aware of the situation and thus may get easily manipulated.


Disgusting? A lie being hammered into the community's head? People easily getting manipulated?

Oh boy...I guess you really need to relax a bit. But thanks anyway for saving us from the evil propaganda.

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-Sam- 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 11:34:18
#18 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 3026
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@saimo

Quote:
hat the lie "AmigaOS 4 is AmigaDE" is being hammered also into the community's head,


Eh?

By who? When?

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-Sam- 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 11:35:51
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 3026
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@saimo

Quote:
I do remember somebody claiming that the reason why AInc, at some point, was confident that they could release AOS4 very soon was because *that* AOS4 was supposed to be (built on) MOS.


Yes. A long, long time ago now MOS was being lined up as OS4.

It made lots of sense but unfortunately a bigger fool than me messed that one up.

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Rogue 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 11:41:15
#20 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@saimo

Quote:
I do remember somebody claiming that the reason why AInc, at some point, was confident that they could release AOS4 very soon was because *that* AOS4 was supposed to be (built on) MOS.


Not quite.

Somewhere in the murky depth of time (aka somewhere in 2000) talks where going on about OS 4, and several alternatives where considered. One of them was MorphOS.

At one time I got a mail from Fleecy asking for my opinion about an AmigaOS being put on top of MorphOS. I answered something in the line of "No idea, I don't know MorphOS at all". We where asked whether we would come on board, and we said "no, no interest in that", which probably lead to the popular believe that "Hyperion prevented MorphOS from becoming the new AmigaOS".

Matter of fact is, the AmigaOS story ended for me at that point. Amiga made a few more tries to get us on board, and after a while we reluctantly agreed, if certain conditions where met (one of them read was access to the source code repository for the kernel source). The conditions where not met, we where out again, and after a while I hear that the whole story collapsed because Amiga Inc and the MorphOS team couldn't come to terms (or so I understood; I dunno though, I wasn't part of it anymore at that time).

When Hyperion finally got to do OS 4, we believed the words of those that should have known better, that WarpOS was already being "matured" into something that could be the kernel of OS 4. There was, supposedly, already paging going on on top of WarpOS (which later turned out to be recompile of a program from Aminet that only ran on the 68k because WarpOS was missing some features). Biggest shock however was that WarpOS was all written in PPC assembler, without a single comment, and closely tied in with the hardware (at that time there was still belief that the Escena AmigaOne would magically appear). Projections and planning at this time didn't factor in a few important points that would soon become very important (like the removal of chipset dependencies, which where not required for the Escena board).

The WarpOS story prompted for a totally different approach. Later on, the lack of Escena hardware made things even worse.

And now, look how far we have come.

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