@matthey

Many good points...

The issue to me is always going to be the software and maturity of everything.

Starting over at this point is a major hurdle (one of the reasons we haven't seen an major infusion of software and only hardware) and you would be recreating the wheel as well.

Literally every day that goes on, they are falling more and more behind.

Logically, to me anyways, MorphOS already has a very mature software that doesn't have any direct competition in any flavor.

@ PPCAmiga1

The Amiga is pretty dead and most of what you ask for already exists with MorphOS.

3.20 and the appset is undergoing more rounds of improvements and more major native apps will be part of a base install.

I just don't see anyone that will fly to the Amiga OS4 banner, and lots of good stuff already going on, including 3.20 being released for the Mirari.

Just a thought to consider...

Matt3k Quote:

Many good points... The issue to me is always going to be the software and maturity of everything. Starting over at this point is a major hurdle (one of the reasons we haven't seen an major infusion of software and only hardware) and you would be recreating the wheel as well. Literally every day that goes on, they are falling more and more behind. Logically, to me anyways, MorphOS already has a very mature software that doesn't have any direct competition in any flavor.

Of AROS, MorphOS, AmigaOS 3 and AmigaOS 4, AmigaOS 4 is easily in the most danger of extinction.

1. ownership/licensing is a disaster do to blundering Ben writing the AmigaOS 4 dev contracts and selling or licensing much of the remaining AmigaOS 4 to Trevor/A-Eon
2. AmigaOS 4 survival is dependent on blundering Ben who wrote the original 2009 settlement agreement, the latest lawsuit against the Amiga Parties and Cloanto and still represents Hyperion
3. AmigaOS 4 is only available for PPC which is dead
4. there has likely been minimal effort to port AmigaOS 4 anywhere but the 68k and Hyperion blocks new 68k hardware like the RGL A1200 Maxi which could increase 68k AmigaOS sales
5. there is little effort for AmigaOS 4 to support the Mirari board, perhaps because Trevor wants to sell his A1222 mistake and expensive X5000

These guys trust in blundering Ben who is an abject failure.

1. Ben botched AmigaOS 4 dev contracts resulting in lawsuits and no transfer ability
2. Ben would be in jail if Trevor turned him in for embezzlement and bank fraud instead of likely cooercing/blackmailing him
3. the 2009 settlement agreement Ben wrote was likely cooerced under duress, has major flaws like licensing AmigaOS 3.1 from 1994 as developed by CBM who did not develop it and required big lies in the current lawsuit against the Amiga Parties and Cloanto to cover Hyperion's sub licensing and use of pre-1994 Amiga IP
4. Ben lost his Hyperion stock after being caught transferring the stock out of his insolvent Ben Hermans BV in preparation for a bankruptcy
5. Ben was fired from most of the law firms he has worked for do to shenanigans, co-worker Nele Sommers is suing him and the judge has mentioned tax evasion
6. Ben's big lies are some of the most absurd claims I have ever seen in his latest lawsuit against the Amiga Parties and Cloanto

The Hyperion A-EonKit syndicate is betting their survival and the survival of AmigaOS 4 on blundering Ben the abject failure. What could go wrong?

Matt3k Quote:

@ PPCAmiga1 The Amiga is pretty dead and most of what you ask for already exists with MorphOS. 3.20 and the appset is undergoing more rounds of improvements and more major native apps will be part of a base install. I just don't see anyone that will fly to the Amiga OS4 banner, and lots of good stuff already going on, including 3.20 being released for the Mirari. Just a thought to consider...

We can check MorphOS suitability for ppcamiga1.

PPC hardware - yes
MUI - yes
Linux - no

This reminds me of the SNL skit called the Gay Communist Gun Club. The video is at the following Reddit link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SNLvideos/comments/1j8a0wk/gay_communist_gun_club/

I can foresee a PPC MUI Linux Club if ppcamiga1 can just find one other person to join his club. MorphOS with just PPC and MUI is not good enough to qualify for his club I am afraid.

Last edited by matthey on 22-Jul-2025 at 08:59 PM.
Last edited by matthey on 22-Jul-2025 at 08:56 PM.

@matthey

So it is far worse that I suspected! Thanks for explaining... Ouch.. So to summarize OS4... It's dead Jim. I stopped using it years ago when it appeared to be dead back then. Gotta say the MorphOS Team, really helped me by updating their OS and apps in the last 5 years, it is truly amazing that it can do so much now. Lots of energy and momentum.

I still use 3.x on classic, but the software is just dead on it, you can't even try to do anything productive in todays world, still fun to play with. Never got into AROS, as you have to rabbithole every major program to make it useful so I'm just running linux at that point.

Looks like MorphOS is disqualified :), well maybe use linux on one of the PPC systems that can boot linux...

Matt3k Quote:

So it is far worse that I suspected! Thanks for explaining... Ouch.. So to summarize OS4... It's dead Jim. I stopped using it years ago when it appeared to be dead back then. Gotta say the MorphOS Team, really helped me by updating their OS and apps in the last 5 years, it is truly amazing that it can do so much now. Lots of energy and momentum.

AmigaOS 4 is dead except in Trevor's fantasies. That is another thing. The divided ownership/licensing is dependent not only on Hyperion surviving but on Trevor and he is getting old. His mental health has been in question for many years as he lives in complete fantasy Amiga Neverland, surrounds himself by criminals he tries to control and ignores the death of PPC and decline in competitiveness of the dwindling supply of PPC chips. He seems to have become more stubborn to maintain the status quo of his fantasies as his empire crumbles. His henchman Ben and Matthew survive not from the AmigaOS 4 market but from the 68k AmigaOS market where their Amiga IP squatting encroaches further and further triggering costly lawsuits. Even if Hyperion gets lucky and successfully defends against their Amiga IP violations without having to pay a large award, they still would not have a license/rights to the "Amiga" trademark or pre-AmigaOS 3.1 anything without further costly litigation and a low chance of success. The position of the Hyperion A-EonKit syndicate is untenable and uninvestable yet they persist to the detriment of the Amiga and users who like AmigaOS 4. The PPC AmigaNOne is dead and AmigaOS 4 has been on life support for many years. I believe MorphOS has been the biggest beneficiary of the decline of AmigaOS 4. MorphOS development remains steady, a port to either x86-64 or AArch64 may finish before an AmigaOS 4 port starts, software support has gained where AmigaOS 4 software support has lost and the Mirari board was quickly supported to expand the user base and provide funding to help bridge the development to another architecture. The MorphOS team is executing where the AmigaOS 4 divided control by the Hyperion A-EonKit syndicate is headed in different directions and sabotaging themselves as they flounder and fail.

Matt3k Quote:

I still use 3.x on classic, but the software is just dead on it, you can't even try to do anything productive in todays world, still fun to play with. Never got into AROS, as you have to rabbithole every major program to make it useful so I'm just running linux at that point.

The retro 68k market dwarfs the dead PPC market but the problem is lack of competitive 68k hardware. The market for emulation of the 68k is pretty well saturated and better quality FPGA simulation has more limited CPU performance and a higher cost reducing sales volumes. The easier choice to port AmigaOS 4 back to the 68k requires better 68k hardware to move forward again but the lawsuits cause uncertainty discouraging investment in better 68k Amiga hardware. The best chance of AmigaOS 4 surviving in some way is on 68k Amiga hardware and the Hyperion A-EonKit syndicate is sabotaging likely the only chance for AmigaOS 4 survival. Ironically, the Hyperion 68k AmigaOS can already only survive if it is "AmigaOS 4" as defined in the 2009 settlement agreement between Hyperion and Amiga Inc.

Matt3k Quote:

Looks like MorphOS is disqualified :), well maybe use linux on one of the PPC systems that can boot linux...

AmigaOS on top of Linux is ok with ppcamiga1. That is what he wants. Yes, booting Linux Commodore OS Vision on PPC hardware like the Mirari and then running a MorphOS emulator gives him what he wants. Emulating PPC on PPC could offer good performance if optimized as emulating the 68k Mac on an Amiga offered better performance that a 68k Mac back in the day. He is still asking in the wrong forum where he needs Linux developers and forums. He needs to learn to contact the people that can help him and that trolling is counterproductive decreasing the chances of getting any help.

Last edited by matthey on 23-Jul-2025 at 02:06 AM.

@matthey

what you wrote is pure bs.
attacks on ppc amiga ppc hyperion are way to nowhere

mui is one and only thing from Amiga os worth to preserve after migration to x86 or arm
everything below mui have to be cut off and replaced by unix or rewritten
and mui is not owned by hyperion

if you want to make Amiga great again you have to hard work to make open source compatible mui clone that work on decent os

backport zune to Amiga Os 3.x
made zune compatible with mui
class by class testing it with real mui apps for 68k
then port it to unix

so you after read this you know what you mattay should do
stop trolling start working on zune

@ppcamiga1

I say Reaction is much better than MUI and Boobsis are better than Reaction. So soft!

@Amigo1
Quote:

I say Reaction is much better than MUI and Boobsis are better than Reaction. So soft!

Come again??

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@pixie

Again?!?! I just cleaned up!

@ppcamiga1

you do not need to backport it because there is aros 68k where you already can run and test 68k software. But you need people to do the work.

You are claiming to be a developer. How is it? Just do it, stop trolling

@matthey

you are interpreting too much in Trevor D.. He is a enthusiast with some available money and whyever got "in love" with AO4. So he spent a lot of money in his hobby. I would not see more in it. There is no big plan to make amiga great again, just fun. And Trevor D. certainly never was and is a computer expert what to me would explain some of the mistakes he did. MorphOS has not much benefitted from the decline because any amiga based platform today is hobby. And the blue versus red war not helped either. As I see it NG users more propably drop the hobby at all when old hardware fails instead of changing f.e. from AOS4 to MorphOS. Or they return of OS3. I do not see any higher user activity on MorphOS today. The OS developers are quiet active, supplying updates and software like wayfarer. But outside there is not much. And not much activity on forums either.

68k is fun certainly. But it is retro. That would be even the case to me if you would have running it on modern hardware like emu68 on advanced ARM hardware.

@Matt3k

MorphOS is certainly useable today to some degree. You are proof of that ;). But general it makes no sense. Amiga is hobby so for most users the PC or Mac is for serious work, all amiga related for hobby.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Jul-2025 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Jul-2025 at 11:24 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Jul-2025 at 11:21 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 23-Jul-2025 at 11:16 PM.

@OlafS25

I certainly can see where you are coming from and can agree to some of it.

On the other hand:
1. It isn't just wayfarer, it is Iris (just updated today to 1.47), PolyOrga being improved, CellBasics (not released yet, but another key function needed that will exist soon), PageStream for MorphOS still is being worked on. So there are a host of native applications that for the most part that can function in modern uses (as you mentioned me :) ). This is very material and probably daunting to anyone wanted to start coding in some other flavor.
2. The OS has been constantly updated and enhanced, to even being able to develop Wayfarer and Iris and other applications, the OS needed improvements. So even if you had talented programmers on tap, they would readily need to tweak the OS to really make a difference, that is why it all just works so well on MorphOS, many of the app coders also code the OS, and outside programmers have access to the MorphOS Team and they are very willing to help and provide guidance. That is why I just don't see anything else making much traction, to much depends on many other connected items. So you can't have multiple silos and legal land mines and expect material success.
3. Forums are pretty much dead these days, Discord has seen to that. MorphOS has lots of coders working and hanging out there. I have been in MorphOS for 20 some years and I have never seen so much activity.

So why mention the above? Well the point is to use and enjoy a computer at the end of the day. Did the same thing with my 3000 during the 90's and early 2000's. Software drives the usage and since software is dead everywhere else they are at best a hobby. So it makes perfect sense, if you build it they will come and they have. Mirari interest alone proves that.

So with improving software more serious work can be done, PolyOrga and Iris alone are literally equal to other solutions on other platforms. So I disagree with you to some extent.

Does it mean every MorphOS user will use it as a daily driver, of course not. But I think you would be very surprised how many people actually do and run their own businesses on it.

So at the end of the day, it makes sense to support MorphOS and what they are doing, it is a fun adventure to see it keep growing in functionality.

Last edited by Matt3k on 24-Jul-2025 at 06:42 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 24-Jul-2025 at 02:29 PM.
Last edited by Matt3k on 24-Jul-2025 at 12:45 PM.

@OlafS25

herr szonwejs stop trolling start working on mui

@Amigo1

Quote:

Amigo1 wrote: I don't know what your line of work is, if you are still working or already using up your savings. I'd guess the latter since you can gather so much time to fill the forum with big, lenghty posts. I said this in the past already, you seem to be quite knowledgeable in many things and smart. Why don't you take initiative and weasel yourself into the puppeteers circle and start to do some good? Maybe ask cdmauro, he seems to to be a smart candidate too. He has years experience in writing 68k code while working for the motor industry and also knows his way around intel (apparently he has good connection with the mother company) and is also very knowledgeable in programming for the best OS ever: Windows! Both of you should have saved a lot gold through your careers by the looks of how gifted your are. Unix is shit, we have seen that, linux -its derivative- is necro-shit and Macs os is diluted diarrhoea shit with its new aqua interface. I think cdmauro should write a new Amiga-GUI-theme for windowsOS and we (well you, I wouldn't know how to start) slap that into a new Amiga7000 with 68190. Also maybe we (the royal "we") couild ask ppcamiga1 for help, and you could just port and fix a new MUI "GUI" for windowsOS! I think everybody would be happy then!

How pathetic you are. You are just a little fanatic OS4 user who has found nothing better to do to vent his frustration against those he has identified as the enemies of the faith.

Your avatar is misleading, because on paper you should be of a certain age. Instead, you act like a snivelling brat who never grew up and was upset for having being touched his little toy.



Do you feel better, now? Take it, kid:



It's OS4-approved.

@Hammer. You've edited it multiple times, since you've first submitted this post, adding completely new content and also removing other (very likely because you've realized on your own that it was pure load or b@all). It was fun to see you desperately searching online something to bake your claims, which is an evident proof of your lack of knowledge about the topic, and trying to fill it with Google.

Unfortunately, most of the balls (and of the fun) are missing, so I'll reply only to the stupidities that are left (but there are still a bunch: people can have enough laughing).

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: Absolutely false: see above. The PMMU (to be more precise) is TOTALLY OPTIONAL when a 386 is running in protected mode, EXACTLY LIKE on 286. Hint: 386's protected mode is a a 32-bit extension of the 286's protected mode (which have NO PMMU). That's false.

On the exact contrary, that's absolutely true, and I confirm every single word.

As I've said, it's a clear proof that you haven't opened an Intel architecture manual in your life, because otherwise you should have seen that there's a bit which ENABLES and DISABLES the PMMU when the 386 is running in protected mode. Even wikipedia reports it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_register#CR0
31 PG Paging If 1, enable paging and use the § CR3 register, else disable paging.

You're so ignorant and confused that you don't get that protected mode and the paging are two completely different features of the processor, and the latter is NOT mandatory for the first one (on 386). The PMMU is mandatory (must be always enabled) only on x86-64's Long Mode.

Anyway, NOT my problem: YOU are the donkey here, and I strongly doubt that you could acquire this knowledge even after I spoon-fed it to you like one does with babies. After so long and so many discussions, evidently you've intrinsic limits that put an high-bar (very high, I've to say) to what you can get.
Quote:

Hint: Use PCX V2.1 demo. From https://ftp.fau.de/aminet/misc/emu/pcxdemo21.readme Without 386 MMU, you will not be able to use Windows 3.11 "Windows for Workgroups". Other programs that will not work without MMU support are: Windows 95, OS/2, QEMM, EMM386, etc For Windows 3.1, you must use "Win /S" for standard mode (286). PCX V2.1 demo has disabled 386 MMU.

Oh, poor guy: your desperate research brought you here.

But I must disappoint you: I have already answered this point. If you are unable to follow a discussion, again, it is NOT my problem, rather YOUR. Obviously, Nature has been a very bad stepmother to you.

The posts are here, and I have NOT edited any of them (the few times it happens is only to correct some typos): re-read and check them again. And if you aren't yet able to figure it out on your own, then get help from someone who can, since you are evidently too limited even for such trivial things.
Quote:

386's PMMU is TOTALLY bundled in with Compaq's 386AT standard! There is no optional 386 MMU!

Totally irrelevant? Compaq has done whatever it wanted, exactly like with many other PC vendors (NEC V20 anyone?).

In fact, it means absolutely nothing, since it's perfectly fine with PCs (a "PC" has very small requirements).

To be more clear, the fact that Compaq, on its own, decided to introduce a PC with an 80386 is absolutely fine, but it means absolutely nothing on this context.
Quote:

Facts: Virtual memory is supported in Windows 3.1 enhanced mode's Win16 and Win32S.

Already replied: see above, also at the very beginning.
Quote:

Compaq 386AT standard

This isn't a standard: see just above.
Quote:

supports both Xenix System V/386 and Windows 386.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I386
Launched October 1985

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Deskpro_386
Release date September 9, 1986; 38 years ago

So, it took almost one year to have the first PC using a 386: there was really a great demand for its features, and especially for its PMMU...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix#Transfer_of_ownership_to_SCO
In 1987, SCO ported Xenix to the 386 processor, a 32-bit chip, after securing knowledge from Microsoft insiders that Microsoft was no longer developing Xenix.[42] Xenix System V Release 2.3.1 introduced support for i386, SCSI and TCP/IP. SCO's Xenix System V/386 was the first 32-bit operating system available on the market for the x86 CPU architecture.

Read: a (386) PC was NOT a requirement for it. 386 was the only requirement.

Besides that, it took TWO years since the introduction of the new Intel's processor to have this NOT mainstream OS running on a 386 platform. Again, it was so urgent to use this processor's features.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_2.0#Windows/386
Released to manufacturing December 9, 1987; 37 years ago
The product includes two different variants: a base edition for 8086 real mode, and Windows/386, an enhanced edition for i386 protected mode.

Read: a 386 was OPTIONAL. And, like Xenix, after TWO YEARS of the 386 introduction (great demand for the features of this processor, eh?)

However, it's important to highlight that for 386s it can use the protected mode. Note: ONLY THE PROTECTED MODE. In fact, from the same link:

There was no support for disk-based virtual memory, so multiple DOS programs had to fit inside the available physical memory

I won't even comment here because I prefer not to rage, since you have committed suicide with your own hands.
Quote:

Most PC cloners followed the Compaq 386AT standard! The Compaq 386AT standard made the full 386 mandatory in the PC standards road map.

See above on this.
Quote:

Only Amiga makes it possible to kitbash i386/i686 without MMU.

Amiga and Mac have NOT required a PMMU, albeit having the possibility to use it (Amiga with third-party apps. MacOS first with third-party apps, and then with the OS). Which was the common case, at the time.

Exactly like PCs, where OSes (and applications) were NOT necessarily obligated to enable/use the PMMU for 386+ PCs.
Quote:

For Windows 3.1 enhanced mode, WIN.COM checks if a “386 memory manager� is already running and uses its page mapping tables before Windows takes over the memory management. WIN386 is built on the virtual memory and paging capabilities of the 386 and is much more than a mere DOS Extender!

Again, already replied on the past posts + see above for Windows/386.
Quote:

With Enhanced Mode, KERNEL/USER/GDI, Windows/DOS applications, and 16-bit drivers cannot write outside their private memory space nor in ring 0 where the VMM (virtual machine manager) and the various VxDs are running.

That was already happening with the protected mode (read: no PMMU was needed!), either in 16 or 32-bit mode. See above.
Quote:

Windows 3.1 enhanced mode's virtual machine manager replaces EMM386 services and serves 4K pages. Win16's expected 64K segments are faked by behind-the-scenes 4K pages via 386 PMMU.

LOL Expected 64kB segments? On which parallel universe?!?

First of all, protected mode has NO segments, rather SELECTORS.

Second, and most important, such selectors can range from 1 to 64kB with a granularity of 1 byte on 286s, up to 1MB with the same granularity on 386s, and additionally from 4kB to 4GB for non-granular (multiple of 4kB) selectors again on 386s.

So, selectors were NOT forced to be 64kB (or even 4kB)! And with very good reasons, otherwise there would have been a monstrous use of memory, with a huge amount that would have been wasted. In short, a PC with a 286 would have died, given the low memory availability at the time. But the same happened on 386, for exactly the same reasons (and that's the reason why 4kB paging wasn't even implemented on the most famous and MAINSTREAM OS: see above).

As usual, you miss no opportunity to show how you know nothing about x86 architectures, and even their OSes, completely ignoring the reality of the time. You clearly were living on a parallel universe...
Quote:

Both Win32S and Win16 have access virtual machine manager's 4K paged virtual memory system. This effectively disables segment MMU (doing nothing) and is replaced by 386's PMMU.

Again, you have no idea on how a complex OS like Windows worked out on x86 processors.

No, you can NOT disable the "segment MMU" (Sic.! Not even the basic nomenclature! How much ignorance...) when Win16 code was running: SELECTORS (NOT segments!!!) continue to work EXACTLY AS ON 286, because... THERE'S NO OTHER WAY! Read again: NO OTHER WAY!

But if you've a different opinion, then go on and PROVE IT! In meanwhile I'm preparing the next wagon of pop-corns...
Quote:

Windows 3.1 enhanced mode's 386 VMM and VxDs are the basis (foundation) for Win9X and part of Microsoft's 32-bit OS transition phase.

Wrong: Win32 was the foundation for the 32-bit transition.

In fact, that's the only important thing to consider, and which is able to abstract from the underlying kernel implementation.

Windows NT had (and have!) completely different (internal) APIs, which served well ALL subsystems that it supported (OS/2, POSIX, Win32).
Quote:

Microsoft went through its non-memory-protected 32-bit OS transition phase before ending up with C2-capable memory-protected 32-bit Windows NT.

See above: totally irrelevant. NT was a completely different OS / product, and for completely different markets.
Quote:

Windows 3.1's enhanced mode's virtual machine manager is designed for 32-bit 386 PMMU (4K memory pages),

IF it was enabled. See above.
Quote:

and most extremist 68K fanboys can face the facts.

See above on this, as well.
Quote:

You should look in the mirror with your RTFM.

And again, see above on this as well, dear IGNORANT! You know nothing about both x86 processors and the OS which were developed for them.

It's difficult to find donkeys like you that have no clue, at all, of what they talk about, but here we've The King, for sure.
Quote:

Quote: Absolutely false: see above. The PMMU (to be more precise) is TOTALLY OPTIONAL when a 386 is running in protected mode, EXACTLY LIKE on 286. . WRONG. The Compaq 386AT standard made the full 386 mandatory in the PC standards road map. A road map is important.

No, KNOWLEDGE was/is important here, and that's exactly what YOU ARE COMPLETELY MISSING, since my sentence was absolutely valid.

As anyone that have read Intel's architecture manuals knows. So, NOT YOU, clearly, because you're a complete ignorant that doesn't know even those basic things.

Regarding Compaq et all, see above.
Quote:

Your argument is based on the retail release.

No, my argument is based on KNOWLEDGE: see above.
Quote:

In your world, Windows XP is released along with PMMU-equipped CPUs in 2001, which has a major "chicken and egg" install base issue! You're fucking stuipd. 80286 MMU enables Xenix 286 and IBM OS/2 1.x (1987). 80386 MMU enables Xenix 386 (1987), IBM OS/2 2.0 (1992), MS Windows 3.1 enhanced mode's virtual machine manager (1992), MS Windows NT 3.1 (1993), and NeXTSTEP 3.1 (1993).

ROFL. Again, you completely ignore even the basic history of such OSes.

Both MacOS and Windows were COMPLETELY DIFFERENT OSES compared to the modern ones that replaced them (MacOS X and Windows NT).

And yes, that's what Apple and Microsoft did: at a certain point in time they decided to replace their old/legacy OSes with the new ones, telling their customers: "hey, from now on, that's the future of the platform. And you've to follow it". That's it.

It was much easier for Microsoft thanks to the subsystems concept. More difficult for Apple, because they had to relocate the legacy APIs to a set of framework / libraries running on a cooperative virtual machine.

Nevertheless, both companies have thrown out the old OSes and moved to the completely new ones from the night to the day. And that's the history of the two major MAINSTREAM OSes.
Quote:

Any PC clone vendor who sells Compaq's 386AT clone standard can sell to the US government and any large companies with C2 considerations. Microsoft itself used Xenix servers before Windows NT.

RI-ROFL: so, C2 means CONSUMER/2 OS, right?
Quote:

It's good thing that MacOS X's and WIndows XP's foundation OS releases didn't fucking follow your stupid argument! To control the present is to control the past. You don't understand the install base and advancement.

Sure, sure:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP
Development of Windows XP began in the late 1990s under the codename "Neptune", built on the Windows NT kernel and explicitly intended for mainstream consumer use.
[...]
Windows XP is the first consumer edition of Windows not based on the Windows 95 kernel or MS-DOS.

And even here I do not comment further, because it would be like shooting the pianist (who committed suicide)...
Quote:

If Commodore releases memory-protected AmigaOS 4.0 with the majority hardware install base without PMMU support, it makes you look stupid! The memory-protected OS for the Amiga's majority install base has a "chicken vs egg" issue.

See above: that's what Apple and Microsoft did with their MAINSTREAM OSes.

PMMU was forced only with the server-class OSes, which become the mainstream ones on 2001.

It's only that you're living on a parallel universe and continue to think that a mainstream/consumer OS should have mandatory (that can NOT be disabled) use of a PMMU.

This clarified, and again exactly like Apple and Microsoft, Commodore was ALSO thinking at the future of the platform, which could have been based on...rolling drum... Windows NT! But, again, IN FUTURE: when it would have made sense for the MAINSTREAM market.
Quote:

It's a good thing the Compaq 386AT standard didn't follow Motorola's 68K's "to be or not be" MMU flip-flop. Remember, Linux was created on a 386 PC.

Oh, yes: a very well known MAINSTREAM OS, right?
Quote:

DEC StrongARM SA-110 has an MMU, and SA-110's first design win was the Apple MessagePad 2000.

You still don't get that having a feature and using it is a completely different thing.

In fact, YOU claimed that Palm moved from Dragonball to ARM 9 because... of the MMU. Which is an absolute, pure load of b@alls, since PalmOS continued to work WITHOUT using the PMMU even on such ARM processor.

And that's because of the usual thing: you continue to talk of things that you've no clue, at all (opening the programmer's manual? NOT an option for you!).

So, and again, it should be seen if the PMMU was used (and if it was mandatory: PERMANENTLY enabled and that can NOT be disabled) or not.
Quote:

The road towards Apple's ARM + iOS revolution. Apple's Bob Welland designed ARM610's MMU, the same Bob Welland from Commodore. Bob Welland got his wish for a RISC CPU with MMU.

Irrelevant AKA Hammer's PADDING. See above.
Quote:

MMU-less 68000-based DragonBall VZ wasn't smart in the long run i.e. blasted from smart handheld markets by ARM 9T. Motorola's market exit story keeps repeating.

And you keep repeating the same thing despite having received the proper answers, as mixture of broken record and parrot.

The only difference compared to the past is that you're not reporting anymore Palm OS as the example of the 68k failure and transition to ARM because of the missing MMU. Guess why...

Anyway, it took me quite long to reply to this message. Since you're a stubborn bot that lacks memory, knowledge, understanding, and that continues to write wall-of-texts like a broken record + parrot, if you repeat again the same things in spite of the answers you have already received, I will simply point out that you are a complete ignorant who continues to rave.

I've much better ways to invest my rare free time.

@cdimauro

Quote:

As I've said, it's a clear proof that you haven't opened an Intel architecture manual in your life, because otherwise you should have seen that there's a bit which ENABLES and DISABLES the PMMU when the 386 is running in protected mode. Even wikipedia reports it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_register#CR0 31 PG Paging If 1, enable paging and use the § CR3 register, else disable paging.

That's wrong and a red herring.

MS Windows 3.1/3.11 Enhanced Mode requires 386 PMMU for EMM386 paging takeover and virtual memory paging duties.

MS Windows 3.1 Enhanced Mode is more than "386 unreal" mode! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_mode

PCX 2.1 demo's vendor already told you that MS Windows 3.1 Enhanced Mode and EMM386 can't be run on disabled 386MMU PCX 2.1 demo.

PCX 2.1 demo will not run Xenix 386 which is the market segment that Windows NT has targeted.

All 386 instruction set enabled PC has the potential to run MS Windows NT 3.x, MS Windows 3.1/3.11 Win32S, MS Windows 95 and SCO Xenix 386.

https://winworldpc.com/product/windows-nt-3x/nt-os-2
Windows NT 3.1 development and SDK releases from October 1991. This is PC world's creating thier future i.e. planning ahead of time is a real thing.

Your argument is not based on real world requirements.

The 386 movement from Intel 386 (released in 1985), Compaq 386 (released in 1986, development started in 1985), MS Windows 386 (released in 1987, continuous evolution), SCO Xenix 386 (released in 1987), MS Windows NT (started in 1988), MS Windows NT 3.1 October 1991 SDK release demands the 386 instruction set standard. Hint: It called seeding the install base for the future destination.

Linux exploited mass produced 386 PC standard and killed off big iron Unix niche vendors.

Commodore didn't prepare Amiga's install base for C2 rated AmigaOS release, it's a fucking dead end!


The rest of your argument is garbage mario.

Try again.

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Last edited by Hammer on 19-Aug-2025 at 04:14 AM.
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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

ppcamiga1 wrote: @matthey what you wrote is pure bs. attacks on ppc amiga ppc hyperion are way to nowhere mui is one and only thing from Amiga os worth to preserve after migration to x86 or arm everything below mui have to be cut off and replaced by unix or rewritten and mui is not owned by hyperion if you want to make Amiga great again you have to hard work to make open source compatible mui clone that work on decent os backport zune to Amiga Os 3.x made zune compatible with mui class by class testing it with real mui apps for 68k then port it to unix so you after read this you know what you mattay should do stop trolling start working on zune

PPC's embedded market's production scale doesn't benefit other small vendor startups due to heavy pricing discrimination policy.

PPC world can learn a thing or two from Broadcom's pricing policy and Raspberry Pi during it's startup phase.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro Quote: As I've said, it's a clear proof that you haven't opened an Intel architecture manual in your life, because otherwise you should have seen that there's a bit which ENABLES and DISABLES the PMMU when the 386 is running in protected mode. Even wikipedia reports it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_register#CR0 31 PG Paging If 1, enable paging and use the § CR3 register, else disable paging. That's wrong and a red herring. MS Windows 3.1/3.11 Enhanced Mode requires 386 PMMU for EMM386 paging takeover and virtual memory paging duties. MS Windows 3.1 Enhanced Mode is more than "386 unreal" mode! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreal_mode PCX 2.1 demo's vendor already told you that MS Windows 3.1 Enhanced Mode and EMM386 can't be run on disabled 386MMU PCX 2.1 demo.

Already answered on PAST (1+ month) posts. You don't know how to find the answer? YOUR problem! I'm not your kindergarten operator.
Quote:

PCX 2.1 demo will not run Xenix 386 which is the market segment that Windows NT has targeted.

Irrelevant.
Quote:

All 386 instruction set enabled PC has the potential to run MS Windows NT 3.x, MS Windows 3.1/3.11 Win32S, MS Windows 95 and SCO Xenix 386. https://winworldpc.com/product/windows-nt-3x/nt-os-2 Windows NT 3.1 development and SDK releases from October 1991. This is PC world's creating thier future i.e. planning ahead of time is a real thing. Your argument is not based on real world requirements.

In the real world MacOS and Windows moved from server-class OSes to mainstream OSes. As it was reported, XP development was STARTED at END of 1990s.

You don't know how the real world worked. You don't read what other people write. YOUR problem.
Quote:

The 386 movement from Intel 386 (released in 1985), Compaq 386 (released in 1986, development started in 1985), MS Windows 386 (released in 1987, continuous evolution), SCO Xenix 386 (released in 1987), MS Windows NT (started in 1988), MS Windows NT 3.1 October 1991 SDK release demands the 386 instruction set standard. Hint: It called seeding the install base for the future destination.

386: 1985.

XP: 2001

16 (SIXTEEN) YEARS.

You don't know how to contextualize.
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Linux exploited mass produced 386 PC standard and killed off big iron Unix niche vendors.

Server market vs MAINSTREAM market -> TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
Quote:

Commodore didn't prepare Amiga's install base for C2 rated AmigaOS release, it's a fucking dead end!

Commodore was moving (IN FUTURE > 1994) to Windows NT, which is C2 level.

You don't even know of what you talk about.
Quote:

Try again.

You continue again repeating exactly the same things for which you already got answers.

Next time you only get this:



P.S. If you continue to edit your post and add NEW content, I'll NOT reply, at all.
YOU have to learn how to post on a forum, and you're old enough and have enough experience to understand how to properly work here.

@cdimauro



Your argument is fiction.

The Wintel camp has steered and positioned X86 and PC install base for C2 rated 32-bit OS. Steering install base towards a certain goal is real.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Aug-2025 at 04:39 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @cdimauro [...] Your argument is fiction. The Wintel camp has steered and positioned X86 and PC install base for C2 rated 32-bit OS. Steering install base towards a certain goal is real.

+




The posts are there: people are perfectly able to sequentially read everything and judge by themselves.

@fricopal!

Quote:

fricopal! wrote: Quote: by Hammer on 19-Mar-2025 3:19:33 @matthey Quote: matthey wrote: @#6 fricopal = MEGA_RJ_MICAL = INFRA = Franko = Gunnar I wouldn't bundle Gunnar with the above. Gunnar's view on 68060 vs AC68080 is valid. @Hammer, I see your point about separating out Gunnar’s perspective from the others; it does provide valuable insight into processor performance comparisons. Thanks for highlighting this!

You are correct,
friend Fricopal!

I agree with you now and in the past.
We should join the forces.
We should be united.

Truly,
MJRM

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I HAVE ABS OF STEEL
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CAN YOU SEE ME? CAN YOU HEAR ME? OK FOR WORK

@cdimauro



It's a good thing that X86 CPU administration is not run by fools like you.

386 stakeholders' bundled PMMU is good for progressing the PC install base towards the Lintel and Wintel situation i.e. it's solving the chicken vs egg issue while the Amiga platform is stuck with the MMU install base issue!

286 selection over NECV30's fast 8086 clone is about being compatible with the 286 instruction set, which included a segmented MMU. Any PC/AT can run Xenix 286.

386SX-16 selection over 286-16 is about being compatible with the 386 instruction set. Any 386AT can run Xenix 386 and SCO Open Desktop.

X86-64 selection over IA-32 is about being compatible with the X86-64 instruction set.

You don't understand simple road maps.

NT'ed AmigaOS with MMU-less majority install base is comical.

MIPS's embedded MMU bundle is about being competitive for money. It's a simple concept that you don't understand.

Amiga Homber's targeting Windows NT shows the unpreparedness with a lack of "next generation" C2-capable AmigaOS, and Commodore wasted resources on AT&T's Unix OS via the AMIX project.

AMIX = Make AT&T Great Again. Apple didn't bet its future on AT&T's Unix IP-infected A/UX.

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