@minator

Quote:

BTW in 1.8 the zoom option for photos is immensely useful if you want to see where to crop a picture. I have to mess around a lot in photoshop to do this

Hint AMIGA!

@MikeB

What happens when you are actually supposed to see a sharp straight line/edge?

That's the problem with these simple dithering algorithms.
Some things are supposed to stand out...
I made a program like this one day when I thought I could "upscale" Amiga/NES/SNES graphics to the PC. I did a routine that would take a bitmap of resolution x1, y1 and stretch and stretch & bleed to x2, y2. What I stated to realize it that I needed to keep the bleeding factor low and for sharp edges, I'd still have to manually edit it to maintain sharpness when sharpness was needed...which was alot.

Again, kudos for MS for forcing developers to update the content to modern standards...yeah it costs money, but you'd pay for it even if they didn't.

Atleast with modern "real" 3D games, the scaling looks better. Golden Eye 64 on my N64 emulator (Project 64) looks great in 1024x768.

@Lou

Smoothing/Filtering/Scaling/Full HDMI are optional. Test what features suits your setup best.

@ Thread

DVD upscaling:

"In fact, the upscaled movies on the PS3 look every bit as good as they do on my Denon S-301 home theater, and that system runs about $1500. Couple my PS3 with the SLS Q-Line Silver 5.1 surround sound system, I have connected via the digital audio output and I have a home theater package that sounds better and produces video every bit as good as the Denon S-301, for less than the Denon S-301 costs. Moreover, I get the added advantage of being able to play games as well as watch movies with the PS3.

Other updates in this 1.80 firmware include the ability to connect with networked media centers for video, music and images as well as the ability to connect Epson printers to the PS3 to print your images directly from the HDD or a memory card. The big thing here though is the DVD upscaling which the PS3 has needed from day one. If you are like me and bought a PS3 more for the Blu-ray functionality of the system than gaming, this firmware update makes the PS3 a much more attractive option for home theater buffs than the PS3 was before."

http://www.i4u.com/article9126.html

PS3, one of the best upscaling DVD players.
XBox 360, maybe the worst DVD upscaling player.

Last edited by MikeB on 24-May-2007 at 08:39 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: @KrasH Last I heard, it only takes 1/2 a day to determine a WEP key by sniffing and running some unencryption routine...

From what I remember (haven't looked into it for years), WEP is crackable in less time than half a day. Good thing the PS3 and my home network uses WPA-TKIP then.

http://docs.lucidinteractive.ca/index.php/Cracking_WEP_and_WPA_Wireless_Networks

Last edited by KrasH on 24-May-2007 at 09:41 PM.

_________________
Amiga 4000 CSPPC [retired]
Intel i7 3930K @ 4.3Ghz / Corsair H100 / Asus Rampage IV Extreme / 16 GB / 2 x 240GB Corsair Force GT SSD / 2 x EVGA 2GB 680GTX SC Sig / 3 x Benq XL2420T
27" iMac / i7 @ 3.4 / 680mx / 3TB Fusion / 32GB RAM

@MikeB

I do think PS3 got a mighty nice update, reading from Internet, regarding BD and DVD. Good job. Will try later!

But you couldn't resist a cheap-shot against Xbox 360 could you... I do think Microsoft should follow suit by updating their DVD upscaling though. I don't know if it is the worst, but it probably could use a lot of improving too. Judging from their latest HD DVD update they too can improve things a lot when they focus on it.

I do think Sony's frequent updates are better than Microsoft's (usually) bi-annual updates. But then I'm a firmware junkie. :)

Last edited by jtsiren on 25-May-2007 at 08:19 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

But you couldn't resist a cheap-shot against Xbox 360 could you...

You speak of the XBox 360 as if it's a person? Professional testing indicates the XBox 360 fails nearly all quality assurance tests as a DVD player, user comparison screenshots results are honestly laughable.

I don't consider calling the XBox 360 probably being the worst (or one of the worst) quality upscaling DVD player and one of the least (or the least) sturdy consoles ever made, really a cheapshot. It's not like I am making fun of a handicapped person, I am talking about a handicapped electronics device, produced by one of the wealthiest and most monopolistic companies on earth.

Last edited by MikeB on 25-May-2007 at 10:21 AM.

@KrasH

The more packets you collect the quicker it is. Brute-forcing a neighbour's WEP key (for the sake of it, no malicious intent or use) took 10 hours on a Pentium 3. A dictionary attack took 4 seconds.

_________________

Sony sued over protective film used on Blu-Ray discs...
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5760&Itemid=2

@AMiGR

Quote:

From what I remember (haven't looked into it for years), WEP is crackable in less time than half a day. Good thing the PS3 and my home network uses WPA-TKIP then.

I'll just quote what I've already said.

_________________
Amiga 4000 CSPPC [retired]
Intel i7 3930K @ 4.3Ghz / Corsair H100 / Asus Rampage IV Extreme / 16 GB / 2 x 240GB Corsair Force GT SSD / 2 x EVGA 2GB 680GTX SC Sig / 3 x Benq XL2420T
27" iMac / i7 @ 3.4 / 680mx / 3TB Fusion / 32GB RAM

@MikeB

Quote:

Professional testing indicates the XBox 360 fails nearly all quality assurance tests as a DVD player, user comparison screenshots results are honestly laughable.

All the testing I've seen were done late last year. When the HD DVD drive shipped it provided newer video drivers/codecs and the DVD playback improvded. I'm not certain but I think Microsoft has since incorporated the changes in the updates to the console. As you've said many times about the PS3 this is fixable in a software update.

I'd like to see someone rerun the tests using a 360 w/o the HD drive but latest updates, 360 w/ HD drive and use the DVD player, and the 360 using the HD drive. It'd be interesting to see if Microsoft had added the improvements to the latest consoles.

@Thread
Recently Goldman-Sachs came out and predicted the 360 will be in the black by year end, with Halo 3 as the tipping point. By Sept, when H3 ships, they expect over 13M 360s in consumer hands and over 4M H3 games sold by year end.

@AMiGR
Quote:

Brute-forcing a neighbour's WEP key

That won't work for me. It seems I can't pick up my wireless signal from my neighbor's house. I guess 1300 ft, 400 meters, is just too far. Perhaps my horses can crack my WEP. Oh yeah it's unprotected so they don't have to bother.

@MikeB

Quote:

You speak of the XBox 360 as if it's a person? Professional testing indicates the XBox 360 fails nearly all quality assurance tests as a DVD player, user comparison screenshots results are honestly laughable.

Well, not really. I just noted that you chose to include some quite harsh comments against Xbox 360 in a post that really IMHO didn't need them. It would have been one thing to say PS3 does this better than Xbox 360 (which reading online I'm sure it does by miles!), but you just want to put Xbox 360 down when you get a chance. IMHO.

It wasn't the beef of my posting. Just a remark, because after a very reasonable posting on the merits of the DVD upscaling upgrade, that comment on Xbox 360 just seemed very out of place. It didn't even seem like an attempt at comparison, it just seemed like a... well... cheap-shot.

Quote:

I don't consider calling the XBox 360 probably being the worst (or one of the worst) quality upscaling DVD player and one of the least (or the least) sturdy consoles ever made, really a cheapshot.

First, it is all about the context. Coming to such a conclusion after lines of text on the subject probably wouldn't be a cheap-shot. Coming out like that (or the previous comment about Xbox 360 being probably the least sturdy console ever - something like that) in my opinion is nothing more than a cheap-shot. Easy swing at something, not even necessarily true, but apparently too tempting for you to skip. You don't even seem to make it in jest (to kind of tease), you just have to blunt it out there.

Second, I usually dislike extremes myself. I don't think comments like that serve any purpose. I doubt you know enough about upscaling DVD players to say Xbox 360 is "maybe the worst". Just like you didn't know much about failure history of consoles when you made the comment about Xbox 360 failure rates (e.g. the history PS2 laser had). Thus I consider them cheap-shots, especially when coming without out additional commentary on the subject (thus serving very little purpose), and because of this I made that remark in my response that included other things too.

Those other things in my response, the beef of my post, included acknowledgement that upscaling DVDs is an area where Xbox 360 certainly could use some work. Feel free to argue it is the worst, but I'd say that requires a bit more than just a general observation like that from a non-expert on the subject.

I guess that dark/light question got an answer on PS3 vs. Xbox 360 games too. The 1.80 PS3 firmware includes the option to show BTB and thus the entire range of colour (instead of the limited range)... seems the PS3 image was lighter, washed out before because of not displaying BTB correctly?

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: Sony sued over protective film used on Blu-Ray discs... http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5760&Itemid=2

Wouldn't surprise me to be honest. I guarantee that this isn't the only law suit against Sony about patent infringements. Then again, it'd be hard to find a company that isn't or hasn't been in court for patent related stuff.

Last edited by KrasH on 25-May-2007 at 01:37 PM.
Last edited by KrasH on 25-May-2007 at 01:36 PM.

_________________
Amiga 4000 CSPPC [retired]
Intel i7 3930K @ 4.3Ghz / Corsair H100 / Asus Rampage IV Extreme / 16 GB / 2 x 240GB Corsair Force GT SSD / 2 x EVGA 2GB 680GTX SC Sig / 3 x Benq XL2420T
27" iMac / i7 @ 3.4 / 680mx / 3TB Fusion / 32GB RAM

@jtsiren

Quote:

ust like you didn't know much about failure history of consoles when you made the comment about Xbox 360 failure rates (e.g. the history PS2 laser had)

Like I said I refrained from commenting on the PS2 as I did not really follow those events. Yes , I am capable to compare the XBox 360 with other devices I've used. It's funny how you didn't criticize people who claimed the XBox 360 to be a decent upscaling DVD player, while tests clearly indicated otherwise.

I don't like extremes neither, but the quality tests failings as shown by the XBox 360 was rather extreme and so are the amount of credible sources claiming to be on their third console or beyond in this short timespan of availability.

@MikeB

Quote:

It's funny how you didn't criticize people who claimed the XBox 360 to be a decent upscaling DVD player, while tests clearly indicated otherwise.

I probably missed their posts. OTOH, it might very well be a decent upscaling player. I've seen postings pointing towards that, personal tests say it is OK. It MIGHT be the worst for all I know, but I don't have that information.

@jtsiren

IMO even before the update the PS3 produced way better DVD end results than the XBox 360 did while upscaling DVDs.

Comparison:

XBox 360 (with scaling):
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/XBOXIA2.jpg

PS3 (before PS3 upscaling update):
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/PS3IASD1.jpg

Of course there were rumours here at AmigaWorld that upscaling would magically turn DVDs into 1080p Blu-Ray quality, but this is of course not the case:

DVD upscaled to 720p (by a standalone player, not XBox 360):
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/iceageSD.jpg

Blu-Ray downscaled to 720p:
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/iceageBR.jpg

Last edited by MikeB on 25-May-2007 at 02:38 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

you didn't criticize people who claimed the XBox 360 to be a decent upscaling DVD player, while tests clearly indicated otherwise.

Here's the criticism. The tests that were done, I believe ArtsTechina is one place, were done with an older version of the software. Earlier in the 360s life DVD playback was only 480p. In later updates 720p and 1080p are now possible. Clearly something has changed. While AT did say the playback of the DVD on the 360 sucked it was tested with a software that's since been updated. It is likely the case that the people who say the DVD is decent are right because they are using those newer softwares which fixed some issues. ArtsTechina was right for the time. But until they go back and test on the latest software we really can't use their conclusion any more then for an interesting point in history reference.

Here's a similar question == PS3 can't playback Blu-Ray on 720p. The PS3 is the worst Blu-Ray player in the world if you need 720p because it can't do it. Now Sony has fixed this issue. If I posted here how bad the 720p playback is nonexistent so don't buy one would you not correct me? Certainly.

So please your sister has one, get the latest updates and try it. Also see if you can find tests of the playback that are after the Spring 07 update so are using the latest software please post them here. It'd be nice to see companies update their testing results. Thank you.

@KrasH

Err, I didn't contradict you or argue with you.

Just posted my experience to support you.

_________________

@MikeB

Quote:

DVD upscaled to 720p (by a standalone player, not XBox 360): http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/iceageSD.jpg Blu-Ray downscaled to 720p: http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/iceageBR.jpg

How was the transfer done on these 2? Is the same master used for the DVD vs the Blu-Ray? Or, as is typically the case, was the movie remastered? For example the HD DVD version of King Kong has the special effects rerender. Improving the quality for the media that can handle it is a great idea. But, it does introduce a level of error when attempting to compare the DVDs and Blu-Ray.

Other errors are introduced by the output type. DVD is typically component so Digital is rendered to analog and back to digital by the TV. Blu-Ray typically runs over HDMI so the digital is carried as digital and the TV then renders the digital. There's obviously different circuitary involved in these processes and something such as a TV with a crappy analog to digital converter can impact the output quality.

Thus, the question begs was the exact same player used and HDMI used for both? If not again we're likely seeing differences in conversion.

Perhaps this person used a $35 no name DVD player to compare against a $600 PS3 - hardly a fair game there. What would happen if they used a higher cost and quality DVD player? Likely the outputs are going to be closer.

Now I'm not arguing they will turn out the same. But, when you're considering these items one must consider the differences that exist besides the media.

@BrianK

Quote:

Here's a similar question == PS3 can't playback Blu-Ray on 720p. The PS3 is the worst Blu-Ray player in the world if you need 720p because it can't do it. Now Sony has fixed this issue. If I posted here how bad the 720p playback is nonexistent so don't buy one would you not correct me?

Well there was a lot of fuss about this I remember (mostly created by vivid XBox 360 fans though, who seemed to greatly outnumber the PS3 users affected by this issue). But if your HDTV does not accept a 1080i/p source to downscale this to 720p, it's probably not a good HDTV. IMO in such a case the word "need" seems a bit of a strong word, "want" or "prefer" may be better. It's not like such a PS3/HDTV combination wouldn't be able to playback DVD/Blu-Ray movies at all. But if it's that crucial, buying a better TV may not be a bad idea.