@SKOLMAN_MWS

What does that have to do with anything?

@AMiGR

Yeah, I've heard the system myself and was slightly surprised at what the noise levels were once it started to rev up (it was respectively on a hardwood floor/in a tv furniture). But just like other consoles you really don't pay it much attention once the game is in full motion.

What you measure and what you hear are not necessarily the same either. Some ranges sound louder to the human ear even if they aren't by measurement.

@SKOLMAN_MWS

And what exactly does XGL have to do with this thread?

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Some more insight on developer (Ninja Gaiden Sigma) experience regarding the Cell/PS3:

"One important thing about the PS3 is the seven SPUs in addition to the main processor, and using those is what allows you to get the best graphic quality. So we have an entire section of programmers which is assigned to figure out how to get those SPUs working on graphics to the fullest. Now we're actually at the point where day-to-day you can see the graphic quality improve before your eyes, so to speak. So if you look at the screenshots we have for you today -- if you look at those compared to what we put out at TGS, there's a big difference in terms of the textures and the atmosphere. You can see the steps we've made since then."

Please note how they specifically are referring to the SPUs/SPEs with regard to creating the best graphics quality and not about the RSX. This is something I said all along, but probably hearing this from actual PS3 developers helps.

So making a full PS3 vs XBox 360 comparison based solely on Xenos vs RSX (both have their stong points) is incomplete.

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=0&cId=3156377

Please note if you want to drag them down by insisting they are "fanboys", they have developed for the XBox as well.

@MikeB

To be honest, why don't we recap on this subject *after* the game in question is released? As, to be honest, the screenshots in that interview are not impressive in the slightest.

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@AMiGR

Quote:

why don't we recap on this subject *after* the game in question is released

Well, I have enough information available to me that the Cell's SPEs can help a lot in terms of graphics quality and game complexion. I just wanted to share this within this thread. I stated that with XBox 360 ports you will not be able to judge the PS3 in full, IMO not by a long shot. It takes time and effort by developers, just like with Amiga games and early Atari ST ports, before we can make a judgement.

So in effect we are now about saying the same.

@MikeB

Er, Mike, why do you forget the fact that the XBox 360 CPU is *also* multi-core and multi-threaded, with multiple vector units (6 of them in fact, 2 per processor)? You *always* assume that if a game doesn't look good on the XBox, it's the XBox' fault while if it doesn't look good on the PS3 it's the developer's fault?

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@MikeB

Regarding the "Half a DVD ought to be enough for everyone" Gears of War discussion.

Apparently Metal Gear Solid 4 will not fit on a 25 GB disk and will need a 50 GB Blu-Ray disk.

"Apparently Hideo Kojima believes that what you do with in game sound can fill up the disk rather quickly this leads us to believe that the new MGS may have an ace up its sleeve, perhaps some thing never before seen in a game, though we can't be sure what yet. This seems to be the reason why he needs a larger disk."

Maybe this will put things into perspective, that indeed Blu-Ray offers more advantages to the PS3 than solely being able to play Blu-Ray movies, like I said earlier.

Kojima wants 50GB Blu-Ray disk for MGS4
http://www.sagn.co.za/comment.php?comment.news.366

@MikeB

Meaning that the MGS developers are not using algorithmic synthesis of data.

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@AMiGR

Quote:

You *always* assume that if a game doesn't look good on the XBox

Care to back up that statement with some quotes? IMO the XBox 360 is able to produce visually impressive games.

Quote:

Er, Mike, why do you forget the fact that the XBox 360 CPU is *also* multi-core and multi-threaded

Yes so? That doesn't mean that CPU has near the Cell's total power and flexibility. IMO this is like the XBox 360's DVD vs Blu-Ray discussion, sure smaller games will fit on a single DVD, sure less demanding and complex games can run equally fine on both platforms.

@AMiGR

Or that they intend to fill it to the brim with FMV. The MGS series went from cinematic games to films where you get to play a couple of sequences.

@MikeB

Quote:

Yes so? That doesn't mean that CPU has near the Cell's total power and flexibility.

So, you want to claim that a processor with 6 specialised vector units is more flexible than 3 dual-instruction-issue general purpose processors? The Cell might be faster in raw power, but the flexibility claim is questionable.

Last edited by AMiGR on 14-Jan-2007 at 06:32 PM.

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@AMiGR

The Cell is very flexible, I believe you will eventually see it used in a much larger varierty of devices than you will see the Xenon.

The Cell also had the advantage of having ultra-fast XDR memory at 3.2 Ghz available to it, sadly people here cannot understand the advantages this offers, which is IMO pretty sad. Suddenly a unified graphics/system memory model is insisted to be superior.

The 7 SPE's are more powerful and flexible than people realize, I find this especially sad because this is suppossed to be the*Amiga community*, for god's sake! The community which had the coders which utilized the Amiga custom chips to their full potential, people eager to learn more about technology, people with the motivation to create games and demos more impressive on lowly clocked 68k CPU with only a fraction of memory available as compared to much newer old PCs, people who dared to tell the system down to the core what to do with assembly code. Where's the ambition, where's the enthusiasm to extend boundaries?

IMO the PS3 developer community is like what the Amiga developer community once was, but doesn't seem to be anymore, not by a long shot.

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Jan-2007 at 06:53 PM.

@MikeB

As for the redo of Ninja Gaiden it'll be interesting to see how the developers improve this for the PS3. We know at this time there's one extra playable character. Tomonobu Itagaki said his team isn't doing the port but working on newer projects. Such as part 2. Do you know what team is and what Xbox games they made in the past?

Quote:

Apparently Metal Gear Solid 4 will not fit on a 25 GB disk and will need a 50 GB Blu-Ray disk

I wonder if MGS4 is as much or more FMV as the previous one? Also one has to beg if they are doing all they can to compress the game into a smaller size. For Obilivion I thought it was something in the area of 30GB before using procedural analysis and new compression algorthims and it ended up on a single DVD.

Quote:

That doesn't mean that CPU has near the Cell's total power and flexibility

The 360's processor is more flexible. The Cell has 7 SPEs. 1 is reserved to the OS. 1 by Sony definition needs to be immediately available if the OS needs extra resources. So effectively the developer has 5 SPEs which they can rely on. An SPE is not as full featured as a processor. The 360 has 6 threads across 3 cores and each thread is a full featured processor. The Cell excels at media processing but this is estimated to be 10-15% of the game. The Xenon shines above the Cell in the other 80% of the game. Thus it turns out the Xenon has more ways for developers to use it in a game and is more flexible. As for theoretical power the PS3, as claimed by Sony, is 2x the 360. But that power is doing things like streaming 24 HD channels. Great! Too bad video games don't stream 24 HD channels but has a different set of computing needs. So for example we may see the PS3 looking better but the AI and main game logic can have more power in the 360.

These 2 systems taken as a whole are more evenly matched then the PS2 vs Xbox.
It's rare a processor is fully utilized to it's potential. I believe what we are going to see is PS3 games using 60-70% of the potential with the 360 using 80-90% of the potential. But in the end the games will be highly similar.

@MikeB

Quote:

The Cell is very flexible, I believe you will eventually see it used in a much larger varierty of devices than you will see the Xenon.... I find this especially sad because this is suppossed to be the*Amiga community*, for god's sake! The community which had the coders which utilized the Amiga custom chips to their full potential, people eager to learn more about technology, people with the motivation to create games and demos ... IMO the PS3 developer community is like what the Amiga developer community once was, but doesn't seem to be anymore, not by a long shot.

You've said it here the Cell is very flexible. You're comparing a very flexible general purpose CPU, the Cell, that has some nice optimizations for high bandwidth sort of applications to a the more specialized gaming purpose process of the Xenon. When you build for a specific application you can get better optimizied hardware. It doesn't matter that the Xenon can't stream as may HD channels. The gamers care little about that part of processing. Watching HD content they both peform nicely with the couple of channels the actual end user needs.

Coders which utilized Amiga hardware is also covered in the 360 with XNA for home developers. A much nicer package for your average person to approach and use. It reduces the complexities introduced with these new systems and actually might end up creating a demoscene. I guess today you'd call XNA the YouTube for home game creators. I see the potential for your recreation of a developer community similar to the Amiga more likely to happen on the 360.

@MikeB

Valve don't seem very impressed with the PS3 and favor the Wii:

“The PS3 is a total disaster on so many levels, I think It’s really clear that Sony lost track of what customers and what developers wanted. I’d say, even at this late date, they should just cancel it and do a “do over”. Just say, “This was a horrible disaster and we’re sorry and we’re going to stop selling this and stop trying to convince people to develop for it”. The happy story is the Wii. I’m betting that by Christmas of next year, the Wii has a larger installed base than the 360. Other people think I’m crazy. I really like everthing that Nintendo is doing. “

From GoNintendo

Carmack has also once again made it clear that the 360 has far superior development tools.

So some are really thrilled about the PS3... some think it's a nightmare. The truth? Probably somewhere inbetween.

@BrianK

Quote:

360 with XNA for home developers

You are talking about AMOS developers, I am talking about demo coders and games like Lion Heart.

Some PS3 owner perspectives from one small Fight Night 3 thread:

"I have both the 360 and PS3, I have played FN3 on both of them and the Ps3 Definitely has better graphics than the 360."

"Thats what I said over in the 360 section and people argued against it, its like you have to be blind to not see the PS3 version owns the 360 one in graphics. I've been playing the 360 version for 10 months but its time to go out and get that sexed up PS3 version."

"Xbox fan boys just cant accept the fact that somethings on PS3 are better."

" "umm we've got a PS3 & FNR3 " told them to set up the 360 version and pointed out all the improvements the PS3 one has by this time they wasn't being smug about the 360 lol we even invited them to come and have a go;)"

"I've played both versions (currently playing PS3 version) and it definitely looks better on the PS3. It's not a huge difference but enough that there really shouldn't be any debate. The lighting and sweat/blood effects are much improved. Also, the chicks in the PS3 version have boob physics, while they don't in the 360 version (seriously, lol). "

"I remember i got into two wars. I stated in the 360 section that I felt Gears was an overrated game and I said that Resistance a year from now will look like a much better game than Gears because of its multiplayer and a little bit on its single but not alot. I got into a big fight about "WELL GEARS HAS BETTER GRAPHICS" i was like yeah I know but I didn't say it didn't and it was a big thing."

Sounds all too familiar to me, it has been like stepping into the ring with hardcore XBox 360 fanboys here at AmigaWorld, something I would never have expected beforehand, maybe I am a little bit objective after all.

BTW, Resistance doesn't look bad at all:
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8162/8sq0.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y25/Chadsta/Resistance/928399_20061019_screen001.jpg

@MikeB

Quote:

Sounds all too familiar to me, it has been like stepping into the ring with hardcore XBox 360 fanboys here at AmigaWorld, something I would never have expected beforehand, maybe I am a little bit objective after all.

Not in the slightest. In fact... I do not have an XBox 360, neither do I intend to buy one anytime soon...
According to all grabs I have seen, including ones you pointed us to, Fight Night not only does not look better on PS3, it looks worse. Take a look at the lighting and the crowd for god's sake.

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@Trezzer

There are good reasons why some developers hate the PS3, a game designer:

"There’s no question that more computing power enables us to do things that we couldn’t otherwise do. We can put more characters on the screen; we can put more brains in their heads. We can use CPU-intensive techniques like inverse kinematics to create better animation, especially interactions between characters in games that involve a lot of physical contact such as wrestling or rugby. Our physics and visual effects will be both spectacular and accurate. In short, the PS3 is a programmer’s and a filmmaker’s dream. If you’re a visual thinker, if much of the entertainment that you provide is through the richness or the verisimilitude of your imagery, then there’s no question that the PS3 is the way to go.

The PS3 is another step in a long chain of graphical and computing improvements that began with Spacewar. It’s a big step, and technically speaking, the inclusion of the Cell processor is a very important – and challenging – innovation. Most game programmers don’t know much about multiprocessing. The PS3 raises the bar, and to get the most out of it requires some high-level wizardry."

@MikeB

Quote:

Most game programmers don?t know much about multiprocessing. The PS3 raises the bar, and to get the most out of it requires some high-level wizardry."

Ehm, game programmers that do not know about multiprocessing will have problems not only on the PS3 but on the XBox 360 and even modern PCs as well. So, please... try again.

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