MikeB wrote:

Quote:

Childish, of course I don't wish anyone harm. That's why I personally wouldn't recommend using the XBox 360 for more than a couple of hours a day.

Don't know if the claim is valid, but if so, it's in support of my advise:

Lawsuit Claims Microsoft Xbox Sparked Fire That Killed Baby

There was a similar claim about the PS3 which received widespread coverage from XBox 360 fans and media which was a faked prank. This time it seems by far more valid, considering there's an actual lawsuit.

Last edited by MikeB on 25-May-2007 at 03:20 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: MikeB wrote: Quote: Childish, of course I don't wish anyone harm. That's why I personally wouldn't recommend using the XBox 360 for more than a couple of hours a day. Don't know if the claim is valid, but if so, it's in support of my advise: Lawsuit Claims Microsoft Xbox Sparked Fire That Killed Baby There was a similar claim about the PS3 which received widespread coverage from XBox 360 fans and media which was a faked prank. This time it seems by far more valid, considering there's an actual lawsuit.

Interesting how the 360 wasn't available to consumers when that fire started...
I know it has to do with the power cord on the original Xbox...hence the recall my Microsoft... A little too quick to post - me thinks...

...

Japanese hardware sales for May 14 - May 20:

System - Weekly sales (Compared to last week) - 2007 sales - Lifetime sales

1. DSL - 111,213 (-52,572) - 3,161,866 - 10,611,750
2. Wii - 52,193 (-351) - 1,556,909 - 2,476,552
3. PSP - 27,505 (-6,928) - 901,333 - 5,433,462
4. PS2 - 10,881 (-467) - 345,899 - 20,500,758
5. PS3 - 8,659 (-180) - 434,554 - 892,112
6. 360 - 2,026 (-79) - 97,681 - 362,383
7. GBM - 428 (+20) - 19,236 - 579,116
8. GBASP - 330 (-13) - 17,021 - 5,935,971
9. NGC - 276 (-39) - 7,354 - 4,176,822
10. GBA - 33 (+15) - 640 - 8,823,846
11. NDS - 26 (-13) - 2,049 - 6,584,306

Japanese software sales for May 14 - May 20:

(Last week's rank) This week. Platform - Title - Publisher - This week's sales (Total sales) - Weeks on sale

(N/A) 1. PS2 - Shining Wind - Sega - 78,030 - NEW
(N/A) 2. NDS - Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan 2 - Nintendo - 70,821 - NEW
(N/A) 3. PS2 - Odin Sphere - Atlus - 59,248 - NEW
(1) 4. PSP - Final Fantasy Tactics: The Lion War - Square Enix - 39,480 (194,371) - 2nd week
(3) 5. Wii - Wii Sports - Nintendo - 27,788 (1,601,564) - 25th week
(2) 6. NDS - Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings - Square Enix - 23,904 (445,237) - 3rd week
(4) 7. NDS - Brain Training 2 - Nintendo - 18,790 (4,284,904) - 74th week
(7) 8. Wii - Wii Play - Nintendo - 18,179 (1,317,807) - 25th week
(5) 9. NDS - New Super Mario Bros. - Nintendo - 17,862 (4,458,786) - 52nd week
(8) 10. Wii - Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree - Nintendo - 15,816 (133,304) - 4th week

A poor 2nd post-Golden Week performance overall as expected...
Things should stablize in mid-June... GBA platform again is the only gainer hardware-wise. The gap continues to narrow between PS3 and 360 sales. It will be interesting in mid-June to see the Trusty Bell effect on sales of the 2 systems...

Last edited by Lou on 25-May-2007 at 04:55 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

But if your HDTV does not accept a 1080i/p source to downscale this to 720p, it's probably not a good HDTV.

Not necessarily it may be prefectly fine doing 720p. It's likely the person was an early adopter of HDTVs. It's good Sony is allowing a wider scale of HDTVs access and is picking up those earlier HDTV sets. The movies would have played back in 480p for the person certainly 720p is a better option.

Quote:

Don't know if the claim is valid, but if so, it's in support of my advise: Lawsuit Claims Microsoft Xbox Sparked Fire That Killed Baby

Your advice was for users of the 360. The lawsuit is on the original Xbox. The power cords, power supplies, and systems are different. So no. Just because someone's Xbox had problems doesn't mean your 360 has the same issue. Afterall, the 1976 Pinto which when rear ended would explode doesn't mean the 2008 Ford Mondeo is going to suffer the same problems.

@Lou

Yes but note that regarding such incidents years after the XBox release, for instance Anglesey fire and rescue spokesman Dave Evans confirmed the fire was caused by a "fault in an Xbox game machine" left on standby. Considering the failure rates, I don't think XBox 360s are well tested. I think this information is important, what you do with any information or advise provided is up to yourself.

Last edited by MikeB on 25-May-2007 at 07:14 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Yes but note that regarding this incident years after the XBox release, Anglesey fire and rescue spokesman Dave Evans confirmed the fire was caused by a "fault in an Xbox game machine" left on standby. Considering the failure rates, I don't think XBox 360s are well tested. I think this information is important, what you do with any information or advise provided is up to yourself.

You aren't making sense and neither did the fire lawsuit's inital wording when they claimed it was a 360 when it was an original Xbox.

I could claim my PS3 stopped reading DVD's in 2004 and sue Sony for a new PS3.

Infact, my 2008 Corvette blew a head gasket in 1999 and I demand a new one.

@BrianK

New article by GamesIndustry.biz on XBox 360 failures:

"This problem hasn't gone away; in fact, from a consumer point of view, Microsoft appears to have done precisely nothing to address it. While the attention of the media may have turned to scrutiny of Sony's failings, the vast numbers of Xbox 360 owners who have been let down first by Microsoft's shoddy manufacturing, and subsequently by the company's arrogant and unfair policies with regard to customer service, have increased."

"Has this been fixed? Who can say - Microsoft has certainly made no promises regarding enhanced reliability for the Xbox 360 Elite console, so it's simply impossible to judge whether new machines rolling off the production line will be any better than their predecessors. Even giving the benefit of the doubt, that still means that millions of machines from the "unreliable" period of the console's manufacturing are sitting under televisions around the world."

"Its customer service representatives are adamant on this point, refusing to budge even when it is pointed out that these manufacturing flaws are clearly Microsoft's responsibility under consumer law, regardless of the terms of the firm's own warranty."

"Right now, those horror stories are proliferating; the word of mouth about Xbox 360 is that the games are great, but the hardware is a nightmare."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/newsletter.php?aid=25307

So it's not really really a well kept secret, nomatter how much a small group of vocal XBox 360 fans shout about and focusss on some of the PS3's shortcomings or minor issues subject to further polishing.

@Lou

Posted in 2005:

"Anglesey fire and rescue spokesman Dave Evans confirmed the fire was caused by a "fault in an Xbox game machine" left on standby. Back in February, Microsoft recalled 14.1m Xbox power cables shipped into Europe before 13 January, 2004 and in other territories before 23 October, 2003, as we previously reported. MS admitted to "30 or so reports from users suffering minor burns, singed upholstery or scorched carpets as a result of power lead malfunctions". ®"

@MikeB

The issues with the 360 are well known. No one is doubting there hasn't been issues. The article however is false in this statement ' Has this been fixed? Who can say ' -- The Elite is using a different type of DVD, changes to the motherboard, glue on the chips to help better ensure they don't pull away from the motherboard due to heat warping, things not on the launch console. Clearly strides have been made to improve the situation all they'd have to do is something called investigative journalism find a launch console find an Elite, crack them open and frickin' look. Then they can go further and run them. One notices the Elite is quieter then the launch and for HD DVD seems to run the fans less. Heck they could even use a search engine and get an answer to the question if things have been changed. The true test comes with time however and the 1-2 months the Elite has been out hasn't been that long. Heck I found messages declaring Elites failing before the Elite was available.

(Side note: I need to get a decible meter. The Elite seems to be quieter then the PS3. The Elite is on the top shelf and the PS3 on the bottom. But before I commit to that I'd want some hard data. Even if I get hard data that would, of course, apply to me perhaps I have ended up with a quieter Elite and a noisier PS3. )

EDIT: Do you happen to know if this user's fire was before or after the recall? And if after did the user do the responsible thing and followed through with getting his unit fixe under the recall?

Last edited by BrianK on 25-May-2007 at 08:18 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

Clearly strides have been made to improve the situation all they'd have to do is something called investigative journalism find a launch console find an Elite,

"Reports have already emerged that the some Xbox 360 Elites are showing the red ring of death. This comes just a day after the model's release in the US.

Apparently disc-scratching issues are also emerging, with the video below demonstrating that one unit (in the owner's words) "always sounds like a screaming banshee on crack". At this stage, however, SPOnG's treating the reports as rumour only until we see more evidence."

http://news.spong.com/article/12415?cb=123

Quote:

EDIT: Do you happen to know if this user's fire was before or after the recall? And if after did the user do the responsible thing and followed through with getting his unit fixe under the recall?

First of all in life threatening situations it's Microsoft's responsability to shout from the roof tops about such dangers. For instance I haven't followed the matter at the time and likely Microsoft may not have reached such people unaware of these dangers, if so AFAIK in any decent country M$ can still be held responsible for any damages or harm done by their faulty products.

Likewise a majority of current XBox 360 buyers may not be aware of the current hardware problems. Many of the people experiencing problems think they were just unlucky, at least unless they have some friends who experienced similar problems.

Last edited by MikeB on 25-May-2007 at 08:48 PM.

@MikeB

BTW: Sony actually recalled PS2 power cords too, mine included.

Or how about the Sony-made batteries that I also had to replace in a laptop of mine... Luckily I didn't get burned!

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-6130152.html

These are just issues I was personally touched by. I did also replace the Xbox 1 power-cord, of course. These things happen and they happen to Sony too.

Anyways, I haven't seen a single person in this thread holding Xbox 360 build quality superior to PS3. I think everyone so far is pretty much in agreement the latter seems more reliable, way more. Well, I think so at least reading about it all the past year or so! Xbox 360 deserves some serious critique because of the hardware failures - even if I don't know any failed ones personally. The root of the problem is relatively well documented, as is the fix in Elite (what isn't known is how well does the Elite fix work, of course).

I think that latest quote of yours is actually quite good: Xbox 360 has some great, great games. It is a good box for that, hey, to quote your recent style - maybe the best! The hardware has quality issues, no doubt at least for some people. Will Elite fix those? Who knows, but they did make some changes that point to that direction. Again, I think the truth is somewhere in between and Microsoft should ditch that X-shaped component just to be sure.

Anyways - currently I feel PS3 is probably the better general use box (if only it weren't too noisy for a consumer electronics device), it certainly is quite versatile. I do like it! Interesting to see the Microsoftian response, they have their own things in the making of course with all that video on demand stuff etc. They need to quieten the Xbox 360 down too before that, maybe I'll buy a smaller chip (=cooler) Elite if they ever surface. The games fight - and related performance fight, the past pet discussion here - remains to be seen as much as ever.

Last edited by jtsiren on 25-May-2007 at 10:41 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 25-May-2007 at 10:31 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

First of all in life threatening situations it's Microsoft's responsability to shout from the roof tops about such dangers.

Let's see I registered my Xbox and got a mailing explaining the situation and how to do the recall even though I was not impacted. I also saw it on the news. Target, Circuit City, and Best Buy all have a wall posting recallings - not sure if it was there but I'd be surprised if it were not. A recall is a public matter not hidden as you seemingly imply. Microsoft can be held liable for damages.

Quote:

Likewise a majority of current XBox 360 buyers may not be aware of the current hardware problems. Many of the people experiencing problems think they were just unlucky, at least unless they have some friends who experienced similar problems.

I assume those missing te news there are problems must not own TVs or have internet connections nor have friends who own 360s, internet connections or TVs. I'll go back to mention one of my previous posts that Micrsoft should be more open about the 360 problems and Sony more open about the PS2 issues. Neither company provides a reliability figure for their consoles.

I seriously feel for this guy. But, there will be lots of these sorts of questions in the court case and others. Did he get the mailing? Did his fire detectors work? What actions were taken to save his family? It's not going to be pretty it's a court case they rarely are especially when it comes to matters of the heart. My bet is he gets something but no matter the win it'll not bring his child back or his peace of mind.

Quote:

At this stage, however, SPOnG's treating the reports as rumour only until we see more evidence."

Exactly my point on the Elites. We need to see more evidence and give them a bit of time in order to correctly ascertain how large of an impact the Elite does or does not make to build quality.

Last edited by BrianK on 25-May-2007 at 10:39 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

The root of the problem is relatively well documented, as is the fix in Elite (what isn't known is how well does the Elite fix work, of course).

I am a bit surprised to read the following at the Microsoft National Broadcast Channel (MSNBC):

Quote:

That leaves the HDMI-out option — and the PS3-like exterior — as the only reasons to buy the Elite. HDMI is a video output that gives you a crisper high-definition image quality through a single cable that you plug into most modern televisions. What’s puzzling about this feature is that Microsoft spent the better part of last year reassuring Xbox 360 owners that they didn’t necessarily need HDMI out to fully appreciate high-definition video. What gives?

Quote:

Microsoft opted not to use the latest version of HDMI, which means that if you opt to buy the add-on HD-DVD drive for the console (at $199) you won't be able to watch those movies in many of the best audio formats, such as DTS-HD or Dolby True HD.

They fail to mention deep color support for future games and movies.

Quote:

All of the problems that have plagued the Xbox 360 since its first iteration are still an issue with the Elite. The console still has the occasional overheating incident – and the noisy fan that attempts to cool things off. And the Elite version of the Xbox 360 still has that godawful, mammoth power supply that's more than a third the size of the console itself.

I think the DVD drive is far more of a problem with regard to noise production though.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18854247/

Last edited by MikeB on 25-May-2007 at 11:57 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

A recall is a public matter not hidden as you seemingly imply. Microsoft can be held liable for damages.

No, I did not imply this. I just pointed out Microsoft can still be held accountable if this information hasn't reached everyone, the power cords were shipped to many countries, not everyone may be aware of the faulty power cords even today.

I find it funny though that XBox 360 fans in nearly every related thread bring up the battery issue which was dealt with as good as possible costing Sony hundreds of millions of dollars, not related to consoles, Sony ships a lot more and offers a by far more diverse scala of electronics than Microsoft does. Sure if harm is done Sony, Apple, Dell, etc can still be held accountable, that's actually my point.

Quote:

I assume those missing te news there are problems must not own TVs or have internet connections nor have friends who own 360s, internet connections or TVs.

Sure make fun of people, but if there are millions of affected units involved even when only missing a promile of the userbase that's still thousands of people unaware of possibly a ticking timebomb.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-May-2007 at 12:32 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 26-May-2007 at 12:30 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 25-May-2007 at 11:29 PM.

@jtsiren

This may be of interest to some XBox 360 user living in the US. A posting that was just posted originating from the huge NeoGAF thread I linked to earlier:

JeStaH (XBox live Gametag) wrote:

"Ok I'm tired of this ####.

I've had 4 360's break down I filed a BBB claim. I asked for a simple thing, expidite shipping on my fixed/new console. They just gave me the run around saying, we probably can't do that.. Just pure #### and lipservice..

Anyway so I contacted an attorney specializing in a class action lawsuits, and to my surprise they are already preparing a case. This case though is very specific, it has to do with disc scratching. The guy also mentioned there are multiple suits out there already although he is not sure the exact basis of their cases. For them they are going to focus on disc scratching.

If you have had disc scratching issues and would like to join this suit call Eric Bernink at (619) 232-0331 . If you are tired of bitching and want to do something about it give him a call.

Since this specific problem does not apply to me. I will keep calling until I can find an attorney who will take on a class action lawsuit on how 360's are defective. There has got to be lemon laws or something. Thanks xbox support for your ineptitude and now you've motivated me to take further action. If and when I do find one who will take on this type of case then I'm sure many more people here will quality for that type of case.

Edit: Also if you frequent other message boards and would like to pass this info along please do so."

On a more positive note, more before and after legacy Playstation enduser game comparisons:

GT4
Before:
http://www.gamegaia.com/xs955/NonHD.jpg

After (1080i):
http://www.gamegaia.com/xs955/HD.jpg

Before:
http://www.gamegaia.com/xs955/NonHD2.jpg

After (1080i):
http://www.gamegaia.com/xs955/HD2.jpg

Ridge Racer V
Before:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/sdxz/DSC01075.jpg

After:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a324/sdxz/DSC01076.jpg

Half-Life
Before:


After:

@MikeB
MSNBC is more so controlled by NBC then by MS. There were rumors recently that MS may well remove their letters and sell their stake.

Quote:

What’s puzzling about this feature is that Microsoft spent the better part of last year reassuring Xbox 360 owners that they didn’t necessarily need HDMI out to fully appreciate high-definition video. What gives?

720p and 1080i are of course high defn which work over component and VGA. I believe every TV has component. A decent number have VGA. 720p and 1080i (and actually 1080p) do work fine over component. How about the PS3 declaring itself the trueHD unit shipping with composite cables - hahaha. At least the 360 gives you component and HDMI the best cable options.

Quote:

you won't be able to watch those movies in many of the best audio formats, such as DTS-HD or Dolby True HD. .

They failed to mention this is equally good as the PS3. The PS3 and 360 neither use DTS-HD they use DTS. Both neither outputs Dolby True HD they convert and output as PCM.

Quote:

They fail to mention deep color support for future games and movies

Deep color for games? Do you believe companies will make deep color games for a console that won't output in deep color? Doubtful. Besides isn't 24bit to 48bit an exponential additional processing requirement? It's more then double. I doubt we'll see PS3 deep color games.

HDMI v1.3 TVs - are there any on the market? There's a handful of v1.3 home theatre receivers. There's but a handful of Deep Color movies, if even that much. Of course the 360 will still play a deep color movie and it will still look better then it's DVD counterpart.

Deep Color is a bit of snake oil. v1.2 gives 16.7M colors with 256 hues. v1.3 gives 281T colors with 65,526 hues. The human eye can distinquish about 300 different hues on an 1080p set at the average 8-10' seating distance. So will the gain be noticeable to more then the few humans? Probably not the average joe probably won't tell. But the TV companies want to encourage you to buy another HDTV to replace your HDTV.

It's really not a big deal that deep color is missing. When we see a significant number of v1.3 sets likely the Xbox3 will support it.

@MikeB

I don't really know what was your point quoting that article. The article seems ignorant at best. You don't need HDMI 1.3 to use the best audio formats, HDMI 1.1 is more than enough (I believe Xbox 360 Elite has 1.2?) because Blu-ray and HD DVD audio gets mixed to PCM anyway (to combine movie audio and possible interactive audio). What Xbox 360 doesn't do is TrueHD 5.1 - it does 2.0 - but this isn't a limitation of HDMI 1.2, it is a limitation of Xbox 360. I don't know if it is a hardware or software limitation. Of course, Xbox 360 does encode TrueHD to WMA or high bitrate DTS, which still results in quite improved audio.

These HDMI versions are SO misunderstood. In fact, PS3 doesn't even output DTS HD MA at this time even if it supposedly has HDMI 1.3. It might in the future of course, but even then that is only useful if it never gets internal DTS HD MA decoding to PCM. Deep colour? I'll have to go with BrianK on that one. Deep colour is way into the future at this time, not likely significant in the probably shorter life span (compared to the expected life span of PS3) of Xbox 360. Nobody has TVs that support them? I don't think either HD format support deep color yet either.

No doubt PS3 has an edge over Xbox 360 when it comes the HDMI spesifications and audio output.

As for "All of the problems that have plagued the Xbox 360 since its first iteration are still an issue with the Elite." I think that is a bold statement. We'll have to see about that reliability, time will tell. OTOH, many issues Xbox 360 has had are certainly fixed by Elite - namely lack of HDMI, which at least I myself always thought of as a major shortcoming. BrianK is reporting significantly less noise, we'll have to see what the world thinks in the longer term. PS3 can get very noisy too when it overheats, so a fan kicking in is just normal. As for the power supply, sure it is big, but c'moon - anyone looking for a problem in the size of a power brick is IMHO just looking for issues to complain about.

I don't know what you thought of gaining by quoting that article other than just continue to quote the bad press about Xbox 360 and the good press about PS3, that much is obvious.

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-May-2007 at 08:01 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 26-May-2007 at 08:01 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

This may be of interest to some XBox 360 user living in the US. A posting that was just posted originating from the huge NeoGAF thread I linked to earlier:

If the lawsuits are warranted, and they may be, more power to them. We know Sony lost the laser diode class action lawsuit on PS2, such an action would probably compel Microsoft to do better too. And after patent lawsuits we'll finally get vibration on PS3 I hope, so good for us consumers - I'm all for this and always have been. You should know that since the Amiga Inc. days - I do want wrongs righted, I want the best products possible.

Reading here it sure seems Xbox 360 gets only bad press and PS3 gets only good press though!

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-May-2007 at 08:07 AM.

@jtsiren

The PS3 supports 7.1 audio, the XBox 360 Elite only 5.1.

With regard to other sound options the US and European model differ somewhat. "Dolby TrueHD can still be decoded inside the PS3 and sent as uncompressed audio to the AV receiver, but if the AV receiver has an integrated decoder it can't be used instead of the PS3's decoder."

Quote:

Deep colour is way into the future at this time, not likely significant in the probably shorter life span (compared to the expected life span of PS3) of Xbox 360

Maybe not relevant for the XBox 360's lifespan, but I think relevant for the PS3's lifespan nevertheless.

Note that with the update you can improve image quality without upscaling to HD resolutions/

480p with smoothing on:
http://www.gamegaia.com/portal/gallery/3_26_05_07_1_53_13.jpg

Some kind of music/dancing game, I think:

Before:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/vic4912/space2before.jpg

After:
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa278/vic4912/space2after.jpg

I think when we hit Firmware update 2.0 and free Playstation Home availability many people/media will have to eat their words about the PS3 being a "disaster" (a premature opinion formed after so-so but roughly on par initial XBox 360 game ports) from a technical perspective. Like I said before, I think the Christmas battle is going to be interesting.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-May-2007 at 11:53 AM.