@AMiGR

Quote:

I beg your pardon, Mike?

I am not saying your user experience or personal opinion is worth nothing, what I was referring to is that your or my experiences or personal opinions don't debunk the actual survey results shared here on AmigaWorld.net.

For example you may think the PS3 is a bad device (based on hearsay or actual experience_), but that doesn't mean that the average person who've bought the device and have extensively used the device agree with you.

I stand by my statement, in general Sony has a good reputation regarding consumer electronics. Sony's reputation and performance for example determines its brandname value / influence.

Last edited by MikeB on 28-May-2007 at 02:34 PM.

@MikeB

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BTW especially US media has earned itself a reputation of being on a crusade against Sony and relatively lackluster with regard to objectively reporting on Microsoft's wrongdoings (not mentioning other below par reporting).

I think the bias you see is in your eyes about the US media. For example many media places are reporting on the VISTA failure and how Dell is going back to selling XP too. Yet VISTA is the fastest selling OS ever from Microsoft. Microsoft gets press monthly about bugs and hotfixes, compare this to Apple which the general public hears squat about yet they have their own bugs and hotfixes monthly too. US press and Sony? They're mostly loved, there are the few exceptions the PS3 is one. But, how much of the not feeling love is due to 3rd place sales and compare this to the love they're showing the Wii. As you quote surveys be sure to not get in the mindset that all this comes from kick butt products, part is indeed based on perception. Sony advertising and positive news has indeed helped to establish the perception of the consumer. Take the battery failures, as you quoted there's mostly no fall out. However, it's my understanding that Dell has seen some fall out in their laptop sales. Seems Sony got a mulligan but Dell took the extra stroke.


@Minataur
Thanks for the link very interesting.

@MikeB

Quote:

For example you may think the PS3 is a bad device (based on hearsay or actual experience_), but that doesn't mean that the average person who've bought the device and have extensively used the device agree with you.

How nice of you to put words in my mouth. Where have I said that I think that the PS3 is a bad device?

Quote:

I stand by my statement, in general Sony has a good reputation regarding consumer electronics. Sony's reputation and performance for example determines its brandname value / influence.

You are extremely biased and ignore facts.

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@MikeB

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None of those are actual studies though, personally I would value the studies I linked to much higher. BTW especially US media has earned itself a reputation of being on a crusade against Sony and relatively lackluster with regard to objectively reporting on Microsoft's wrongdoings (not mentioning other below par reporting).

So what are you trying to say - those incidents are somehow of less significance because those reports (including numbers of how wide the issues were) weren't in the form of a study?

I think when dissecting reputation here it is also important to remember that any average Joe will probably respect both Sony and Microsoft to some extent (known brands etc.) without knowning/caring anything of the problems we have been discussing here. He won't know of X clamps anymore than he knows of rootkits. This is especially true of Sony because the company is so diverse it is hard discussing financial services and gaming in the same sentence. Sony might have the greatest insurance services in the world and still suck at battery production, both would impact a reputation.

What is of far larger significance IMHO is how the audience relevant to this discussion (I guess more than average gamers) perceives the companies, and their relevant services/products (I guess gaming, perhaps computing and consumer electronics too in this case), and acts based on that. This is where Sony has also earned much of its online discussed controversy, much like Microsoft has. It would be foolish to conclude this a) didn't happen or b) didn't make an impact.

But lets assume for a moment none of this made any impact on reputation or otherwise for Sony. How do you still feel about say rootkit or other DRM issues? Or the Lik-Sang case? Or maybe quality issues related to batteries or PS2 powercables or laser diodes? You don't care? If the reputation is good, none of the bad stuff really matter? If so, why do you care so much that Microsoft has similar issues?

Last edited by jtsiren on 28-May-2007 at 02:49 PM.

@AMiGR

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How nice of you to put words in my mouth. Where have I said that I think that the PS3 is a bad device?

It was obviously a hypothetical example.

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You are extremely biased and ignore facts.

And you don't and / for are not?

At least this statement is based on actual research.

@jtsiren

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You don't care? If so, why do you care so much that Microsoft has similar issues?

Hey where the hell in this thread did I mention the endless issues which have surrounded Microsoft products such as MSDOS and Windows? IMO that's not directly related to their game consoles, so why should I? But if you want me to comment, I think overall Microsoft has a very mixed reputation from a global perspective, much more so than Sony. Which Microsoft products are considered to be problem free as well as being top-class, except for maybe some Microsoft branded input devices?

With regard to Sony I can name you endless examples!

Last edited by MikeB on 28-May-2007 at 02:58 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

And you don't and / for are not?

Who am I biased *for* Mike? I believe Microsoft is a monopolistic giant. I believe that MS' management does its best to shallow competitors, hide facts, etc and resorts to quite below the belt moves. I also believe that the first XBox was a cheap move of releasing a PC as a console to expand their market to another in hope for more profits, as corporations usually do. I believe that Steve Ballmer is a raving lunatic who eats "developers, developers, developers" for breakfast.

I'm biased for Apple, actually, and even them are not spotless in any conceivable way, they have had lots of **** in their hands.

So, let's see... Am I trying to make M$ look good? Am I trying to make Apple look good? Are you trying to make Sony look good?

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At least this statement is based on actual research.

As opposed to doing research while being a *user* of their devices instead of a bystander who does his best to make Sony look like a spotless paradigm of a model corporation that does good to humanity.

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@MikeB

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Hey where the hell in this thread did I mention the endless issues which have surrounded Microsoft products such as MSDOS and Windows?

You have referred to Microsoft's monopolistic ways several times. Where is that Microsoft monopoly in gaming consoles?

Quote:

But if you want me to comment, I think overall Microsoft has a very mixed reputation from a global perspective, much more so than Sony.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I'd personally say Sony is the Microsoft of consumer electronics. Like Microsoft they constantly make good-enough products and mature ideas from others into nice products. Sony is hardly cutting edge all around, but they are a safe choice for the consumer with polished products and a known brand. I buy from the a lot because of this, it is easy. Most of the time some other manufacturer has the technically superior product, but the Sony is good enough. Like Microsoft they have aggressive strategies and have had their share of controversy. Like Microsoft Sony likes to control formats instead of embracing open formats. There are many similarities.

Maybe Sony is more respected. I wouldn't know. I'd say probably it is more likely they are. But as far as this thread or AW.net goes, Sony is hardly without controversy even if you like to gloss over it.

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Which Microsoft products are considered to be problem free as well as being top-class, except for maybe some Microsoft branded input devices?

There are many products Microsoft has considered top of class for sure. Problem free? Computer software by nature is less problem free than consumer electronics if history is any judge, and this goes for any manufacturer. I'd say Microsoft .NET is one great achievement. Xbox 1 I'd say was less problematic than PS2 and the top of the generation, Xbox 360 on the other hand is clearly more problematic than PS3...

Last edited by jtsiren on 28-May-2007 at 03:18 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 28-May-2007 at 03:15 PM.

@AMiGR

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I believe Microsoft is a monopolistic giant

Still that doesn't make your statements unbiased. I find it funny you want to claim being unbiased while clearly you are not. I would never make such a statement about myself or anyone else.

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As opposed to doing research while being a *user* of their devices instead of a bystander who does his best to make

So one may not have actual an in depth user experience to hold an opinion? Sweet reasoning!

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Sony look like a spotless paradigm of a model corporation that does good to humanity.

Got any links to back this up? I can provide you with many quotes proving the contrary.

@MikeB

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Still that doesn't make your statements unbiased. I find it funny you want to claim being unbiased while clearly you are not. I would never make such a statement about myself or anyone else.

I sure as hell am biased, I just do not tend to post four hundred million quotes to support my argument conveniently ignoring every single fact that does not support it.

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So one may not have actual an in depth user experience to hold an opinion? Sweet reasoning!

No, but saying that the statistics make Sony look good, so they are is quite despicable. Especially when claiming that those stats mean more than individual user reports on good and crappy products of theirs. I'm sure that statistics also show the XBox360 as being a shiny beacon of success in terms of reliability, how true is that?

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Got any links to back this up? I can provide you with many quotes proving the contrary.

I was exaggerating but that's what your arguments sound like to others.

Last edited by AMiGR on 28-May-2007 at 03:36 PM.

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@jtsiren

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You have referred to Microsoft's monopolistic ways several times. Where is that Microsoft monopoly in gaming consoles?

The way they design their dev tools, industry standards and services are often geared towards incompatibilty with competing solutions (open standards). For example promoting XNA as a professional level games development kit (the experience gained is only useful in Windows or XBox 360 environments). But to quote Peter Molyneux (LionHead owned by Microsoft): "C++ remains the language of choice for professional development" Don't think XNA dev experience will get you far in the professional games development world.

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Like Microsoft they constantly make good-enough products and mature ideas from others into nice products.

I fully disagree, IMO Sony itself or in co-operation with other companies like IBM and Philips are considered to be market leading innovators and producers of top quality products.

Last edited by MikeB on 28-May-2007 at 03:50 PM.

@jtsiren

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'd say Microsoft .NET is one great achievement

It's a reaction to counter Sun's Java. If Microsoft can use this to further expand their monopolies, they will. For example Sun has no reason not to support as well as possible Java on as many platforms as possible.

Microsoft has enough money to hire good programmers, no doubt. But judging M$ on its many years of dominance I would say general consumer interests is ranked well below generating profits by maintaining and expanding its dominance. For example rushing products like the XBox 360 onto the market may have improved their market share, but IMO from a larger perspective is not really in the interest of consumers, nomatter if laws allow them to get away with this or not.

Last edited by MikeB on 28-May-2007 at 03:55 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 28-May-2007 at 03:50 PM.

@MikeB

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It's a reaction to counter Sun's Java. If Microsoft can use this to further expand their monopolies, they will. For example Sun has no reason not to support as well as possible on as many platforms as possible.

Well, C# is, but the .NET API is more than just a reaction to Java. Besides, .NET is a now a standard supported on Linux and other platforms as well.

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@AMiGR

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Well, C# is, but the .NET API is more than just a reaction to Java. Besides, .NET is a now a standard supported on Linux and other platforms as well.

.NET in its complete form (Microsoft's implementation) is only fully available on Windows platform.

From a monopolistic point of view it wasn't a bad idea to have .NET support on Linux. What else would Linux developers use? Similar implementations from competitors!

@MikeB

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.NET in its complete form (Microsoft's implementation) is only fully available on Windows platform.

Yes, but the standard itself is open enough to be able to be implemented anywhere, which is quite a change from usual Microsoft antics, just like using XML and Tex for the new .doc format.

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From a monopolistic point of view it wasn't a bad idea to have .NET support on Linux. What else would Linux developers use? Similar implementations from competitors!

Yes and no. It suits them fine to have developers use their standards on other platforms but at the same time it means that people can bypass Microsoft for .NET support.

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@minator

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They appear to have had quite a few software problems with the p990i, it took some time but they seem to have been mostly fixed now (though the fixes may not have made it to the operator branded phones yet).

It appears that there is one update released about a month ago I do not have. Updated now, let's see whether it's gonna be good enough for me to use the phone again... I'd reverted back to the lovely K750i.

_________________

This looks promising for connecting your PS3 to a monitor lacking HDCP support



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaGXO6Xs96g

@MikeB

Quote:

It's a reaction to counter Sun's Java. If Microsoft can use this to further expand their monopolies, they will. For example Sun has no reason not to support as well as possible Java on as many platforms as possible

The thing is, this time Microsoft got it right. .NET is quite a bit better than Java, very clean, nice, standard-base language and assorted libraries. Going from the crap that is Win32 Microsoft really outdid themselves that time. It really hugely improves how one develops for Windows. Sure it is a reaction to Java, but then many, many things Sony (to continue to comparison) does someone else thought of first too.

Of course Microsoft also has many other products that could be considered top of their class. I think Office is one of those.

@MikeB

Quote:

Quote: Like Microsoft they constantly make good-enough products and mature ideas from others into nice products. Quote: I fully disagree, IMO Sony itself or in co-operation with other companies like IBM and Philips are considered to be market leading innovators and producers of top quality products.

Well, I guess then you disagree. I am NOT saying Sony doesn't innovate, heck, even Microsoft innovates, but I am saying many things Sony does someone else thought of first. Sony just brings many things into mainstream in a often good industrial design, good usability and approachability etc., that someone else might have done first or that someone else does the best versions of, but Sony sells more because they do it "good enough" and in a way Sony products are often quite "sexy" (not as sexy as Apple but still sexier than many). Sometimes obviously they too are leading the pack tech-wise, they are doing well with TVs and digital cameras tech-wise (and the Trinitron Sony used was for years a very formidable form of CRT), but this wasn't the case a few years back so it varies. Sony is by no means equal to best, but it often is quite good.

And I still think Sony constantly makes good-enough products and mature ideas from others into nice products. I'm sure someone interested will be able to list some for you, I can't be bothere right now. Of course they innovate too.

@MikeB

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The way they design their dev tools, industry standards and services are often geared towards incompatibilty with competing solutions (open standards).

BTW: How is this different from Sony having many proprietary, incompatible standards that are not based on open forums? Can you spell MiniDisc, UMD, memory stick, Blu-ray... I agree both companies do this. I am not disputing it in any way. This is one reason I find the companies so similar!