@MikeB

Quote:

From Sony's standpoint, they allow my company to distribute and sell PS3s as Amigas (meaning for instance putting an Amiga logo on there),

I sincerely hope that Seehund will read this.

Are you already planning to offer different cases for the PS3? An Amiga fantasy case for Atheist? Maybe the next case design contest is in order?! ;)

Last edited by hatschi on 04-Apr-2007 at 08:45 PM.
Last edited by hatschi on 04-Apr-2007 at 08:42 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

With all due respect MikeB, you've admitted not having very extensive experience on consoles past. Making such a conclusion seems a bit bold and frankly biased on your part. But do enjoy slamming Xbox 360 and making sure any last bit of credibility you have goes out the door. I can't even begin to (well, more like I choose not to this time) describe the difference in the ways in which you treat PS3 and Xbox 360 in your postings. It is far from balanced reporting, apparenly you don't even try to keep such a facade anymore.

I now feel like I have a pretty good view on the XBox 360 and most of its problems, when I state "may well be" it means view this as a possibility. To be certain would require more in depth research I agree with you, but I cannot imagine the PSX and PS2 user community growing to its current numbers with similar severity and scale of problems. To me the XBox 360 seems by far a less ambiitious project compared to the XBox as the PS3 is compared to the PS2, so I didn't expect this to happen, I expected a sturdy quality product from Microsoft.

Last edited by MikeB on 04-Apr-2007 at 08:50 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

I was just trying to point out your general approach.

You need a mirror check ASAP Mike.

Anyway, since you're not going to back up your statement (which you can't - I'm obviously not the only one aware of that), I'll have to go on with your current lies.

Quote:

PS3 sucks up to many Watts compared to the XBox 360

Please do find the quote where I said "too many". I've said it uses a lot - which it does. Up to 220W in some games according to tests of early games. PCs can use even more - but it's still a lot - and yeah, 360 uses a lot too. Not as much though.

Quote:

Problems with overheating

It's one of many random reported issues. Which is why I haven't made a fuss about it. It has happened to several users. Will it happen to many? We don't know yet. Just like the odd report of disc scratching.

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1080p PS3 will be weak as the PS3 is not capable enough.

Again you repeat your lies. It was the issue of games always being able to have more effects in 720p.

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The motion sensing found with the PS3 is useless.

Again I invite you to either quote me or stop your lies - else I'll have to start taking this behavior up with moderators.

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Claims of lots of people having problems with their PS3

"Lots" is a diffuse size. We don't know any percentages or numbers - merely that it's not an isolated incident that PS3s don't work - there are plenty of reports to show that. It doesn't *seem* to be a huge percentage but we don't know.

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Claims of bad backward compatibility

Where did I claim that? I reported what was known at the time.

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HDMI not offering advantages at all, alledged major handshake issues

Again: Lies Find a single quote by me saying HDMI offers no advantage. The handshake thing is something that happens to some people. Again we know no percentages. What we do know is that it gives problems if people don't have HDCP support on their digital out.

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There are many other example, maybe I will create a myths FAQ regarding the PS3 later on in which I quote your and other people's myths

Since you don't quote me at all and merely pretend to do, I shall have to insist that you don't.

Quote:

In short if you put everything in perspective Sony and the PS3 are inferior any regard to Microsoft and the XBox 360.

You would not catch me saying that as anything but a sarcastic response to one of your PR announcements. Yes I prefer one system over the other for various reasons, but never have I said that it is superior in every regard. Again : LIES.

@Trezzer

MikeB wrote regarding Trezzer's claims:
Quote:

1080p PS3 will be weak as the PS3 is not capable enough.

Trezzer Wrote:
Quote:

Again you repeat your lies. It was the issue of games always being able to have more effects in 720p.

I cannot be bothered to scan all those threads right now (maybe later for a myths FAQ), but just one example to show who's spreading "lies" if that's what you prefer to call them:

MikeB in the past wrote:
Quote:

Of course the two can go hand-in-hand, that's of course the reason why 1080p is being introduced on the PS3. I believe within a year or so all new PS3 games will be 1080p.

Trezzer in the past wrote:
Quote:

Then all new PS3 games will look weak. Neither 360 nor PS3 have the horse power necessary for 1080p with full effects. It really is that simple. Don't drink the Sony kool-aid.

Ninja Gaiden Sigma and Lair are visually very strong titles, hey some people even think the launch title Ridge Racer 7 @ 1080p holds Wow factor!

Last edited by MikeB on 04-Apr-2007 at 09:46 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 04-Apr-2007 at 09:12 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Ninja Gaiden Sigma and Lair are visually very strong titles

I'm not really impressed by the visuals in Lair so far. Bump-mapped water (old), some decent HDR lighting, low frame rates judging from videos so far, poor detail in textures (although in some shots they look ok - like seen from the back and so). I'd prefer 60 fps and better water physics - which should hopefully be possible in 720p on PS3.

Ninja Gaiden Sigma is a different matter, but as was already pointed out here, you can put more eye candy in a fighting game. However, it could most likely still have even more stuff going on in 720p (especially the outside levels are likely to suffer while the inside levels should probably be fine due to low poly-count).

From now on you'll either quote me word for word (and not out of context either) or not quote me at all - or relay what I'm saying in any other manner save word for word. If not it will result in abuse reports.

Last edited by Trezzer on 04-Apr-2007 at 09:21 PM.
Last edited by Trezzer on 04-Apr-2007 at 09:20 PM.

@Trezzer (Mr spreader of myths)

Quote:

Bump-mapped water (old)

The water in the game has its own realistic physics and is running in real time. You will have to see it in action, it's actually pretty impressive.

Old screenshot:
http://www.ps3power.com/cutenews/data/upimages/lairb6.jpg

Quote:

ow frame rates judging from videos so far, poor detail in textures

The textures will be very detailed and regarding performance the same was claimed with regard to Motorstorm before optimizing the engine, a process Lair is currently going through.

Of course when Lair is released you will claim you never stated these things or stubbornly state you are not impressed by the visuals (and not unlikely without seeing the game in action).

@Trezzer
To quote CVG:

"But despite how early the game is, it certainly already looks incredible. It ran in a pin-sharp 1080p.

The water looks so real we had to take breaks from battle now and then to swoop down and admire it. The bridge, which was illuminated in the pitch-black night by flickering flames, was breathtakingly huge and so extremely detailed, as were the hundreds of soldiers all battling on it. Each man held a shield with high-res texture patterns adorning its face, and lit beautifully by the flames around him. More of this please, PS3."

Sigh....

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: I now feel like I have a pretty good view on the XBox 360 and most of its problems, when I state "may well be" it means view this as a possibility. To be certain would require more in depth research I agree with you, but I cannot imagine the PSX and PS2 user community growing to its current numbers with similar severity and scale of problems. To me the XBox 360 seems by far a less ambiitious project compared to the XBox as the PS3 is compared to the PS2, so I didn't expect this to happen, I expected a sturdy quality product from Microsoft.

But it sadly is a fact, the psx and ps2 did have as serious problems as the xbox 360 had. There are forums full of people who had their v1-3 ps2 dying because of bad laser. The most common problem was that some dvd titles would not read, then only cd titles would read and then soon after it would not read anything at all. Sony of course refused to do anything about it, as most machines was out of warranty by then.

It should not take long for you to research this, but it seems like you are only willing to dig up crap on xbox 360 while closing your eyes to the problems that sony had with their previous consoles.

Like i said, i dont know if the ps3 will be reliable or not. It could for all i know be much more reliable than the early ps2 and psx. I also dont think you should be so quick to judge the xbox 360 considering that the problem seems to be mainly with the the models released around launch times and the problem is most likely been fixed in later models.

You should be able to acknowledge that the ps2 and psx had problems as well, or you will only come of as biased. I myself acknowledge that the xbox 360 has had quite a few reliability issues that should not have been there, but i at same time highly doubt these problems is worse than the early psx and ps2 models, which also had a very high failure rate.

edit: I also prefer the ps2 over the original xbox.

Last edited by Tomas on 04-Apr-2007 at 11:23 PM.
Last edited by Tomas on 04-Apr-2007 at 09:52 PM.
Last edited by Tomas on 04-Apr-2007 at 09:49 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

The water in the game has its own realistic physics and is running in real time. You will have to see it in action, it's actually pretty impressive.

I have seen it in videos. It's bump-mapped. It's far from state of the art. If you want state of the art look at this water (and ignore the rest). It's still good looking, but it's not advanced physics. It's good looking in the same way that Panzer Dragoon Zwei had cool water that didn't really look like water.

That's what I mean. Quote previews all you will, but even you should be able to tell the difference. Then again.. maybe not.

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a process Lair is currently going through.

Certainly. And nor am I judging the final product as you seem to be doing. I'm merely looking at the current screenshots and videos - like the recent batch of Lair screenshots on C&VG's site.

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Of course when Lair is released you will claim you never stated these things

My quotes are here for anyone to see.

@MikeB

Some shots of Lair:
Not-so-detailed dragon texture

Knight looks great, but that dragon?

Oh so detailed floor textures?

I'm sure you can tell the difference from the screenshot in my previous post...

Does that monster look great to you?

This image actually does look great...

Last edited by Trezzer on 04-Apr-2007 at 10:05 PM.

@Trezzer

You have only seen old footage and screenshots, but even judging from the old trailer it's not hard to see this game will not be visually weak as you claim it to be. And it's one of the most complex games ever created.

http://www.vidiac.com/video/78edf639-7281-478b-a94d-9853012e08d2.htm

@MikeB

Quote:

You have only seen old footage and screenshots

Pardon me?

Those screenshots I linked to were published on the third of April.

If you don't like to consider them current then by all means go on living in a fantasy world.

And FWIW: Most games created today are among the most complex games ever created. That's what new games do.

I'm not saying it's weak looking either. I'm saying it could look even better effects-wise were they not sticking with 1080p.

Last edited by Trezzer on 04-Apr-2007 at 10:34 PM.

@MikeB

You simply need to pay attention Trezzer didn't call Lair weak. He did say it doesn't seem to be the fanboys wet dream you are enjoying. Lair trailers look well and good. One of the issues I have from Sony's PS1 and PS2 days were they sold the FMV in commericals and gameplay didn't match up. Certainly that Lair trailer in places appears pre-rendered and not actual gameplay. A couple scenes might be gameplay. Once it's released we can judge better the mechanics, gameplay and visuals. Lair is one inticing title for the PS3 I hope it pans out as good as their sales pitches have been.

@Trezzer

Quote:

If you want state of the art look at this water (and ignore the rest).

I hope that "rest" includes the reflection? I really have my doubts moving water reflects like that.

@MikeB

Quote:

Ninja Gaiden Sigma and Lair are visually very strong titles, hey some people even think the launch title Ridge Racer 7 @ 1080p holds Wow factor!

To be precise, I said it has "some wow factor". An important detail that "some", nor have I played the game enough to see if it holds.

I think 1080p on RR7 is very nice, no doubt, but it is missing anti-aliasing which the 720p RR6 has which could be counted as one of those effects an 1080p game is missing in this case. Some framerate issues too. Unfortunately for the PS3 version this also meant they had eliminated anti-aliasing from the 720p version as well.

I did try that Aviator Loop and the lighting/shadows does seem either very bright on the PS3 or actually weaker on PS3 compared to Xbox 360 with some of it missing, I'm not sure but the PS3 does look quite sterile compared to Xbox 360 with shadows everywhere. But maybe that wast just gamma, I don't know. Other than that the track looked pretty much alike to me (with one boat changed).

The one thing that really puzzles me with 1080p is that once you go there, you kind of like to stick there for the resolution. That is certainly one reason why RR7 appeals to me, even if anti-aliasing is missing (OTOH, GT HD didn't appeal to me). For marketing reasons, that may also be the case - once 1080p starts to get out there more, it will be harder to justify staying at 720p because people will want 1080p "just because".

Maybe all PS3 games will end up being 1080p in the future, that certainly would not surprise me.

Will this reduce the level of content detail the games will produce? Laymans logic would say at some level it must (you can always do more at 720p no matter how much power you have), but the interesting thing will of course be if the games will still pack always enough punch at 1080p for us not to see any issues with it. Microsoft's original claim is 720p is the sweet-spot, I think that claim will be put to test by both PS3 and Xbox 360 developers now.

Some games will always be easier on 1080p too. On this note, I almost picked up Virtua Tennis 3 for Xbox 360 just to compare 1080p output but resisted.

@MikeB

Quote:

To me the XBox 360 seems by far a less ambiitious project compared to the XBox as the PS3 is compared to the PS2, so I didn't expect this to happen, I expected a sturdy quality product from Microsoft.

The Xbox was a customized off-the-shelf PC, the Xbox 360 is a three-core PowerPC box with customized and also very new hardware all over the place and a somewhat foreign architecture compared to PC. I think the difference of these two was huge for someone like Microsoft. Read Dean Takahashi's book The Xbox 360 Uncloacked sometimes, it gives good insight into how the machine came to be.

Many launch products unfortunately have major hardware issues. The one company I'm truly fan of (I'm not their fan because of this!) is notorious when it comes to this and I've been bitten by that, luckily warranties and exchanges have worked fine. That company is Apple. This thread has documented Sony history of the same quite well too. I do hope PS3 fares well, because I bought one but we'll see.

P.S. I don't share your view that PSX or PS2 couldn't have become major products with the faults and failures they had on launch/later hardware. They had those problems, they are well documented in class-action lawsuit court documents no less, but the machines had strengths elsewhere and that cleraly prevailed. A fowl-mouth would say the hardware failures are the reason there were so many PS2's sold (as replacements)... but I don't think that is true.

Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Apr-2007 at 07:07 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

You know full well you have highlighted almost anything negative you could find with regard to the PS3. I am not gonna dig through all those threads with thousands of messages for something which is obvious to many following PS3 threads. I was just trying to point out your general approach.

I think MikeB you are now beginning to maybe let your emotions and mental images that these thread have created get the best of you. You are painting with a very broad brush there and IMHO painting a very one-sided picture of how this debate has evolved for Trezzer but also for others.

We have explained time and time again the reasons for disappointments with PS3 we have had, but we have also discussed failures of Xbox 360 and Microsoft as well. I don't think there are PS3 haters here, at least not active in these threads. It is fine you call Trezzer to explain maybe some direct quotes (like you did in that one instance on this page), but now you are just ranting.

Anyway, my take on the issues attributed to Trezzer with a broad brush:

Quote:

PS3 sucks up to many Watts compared to the XBox 360 (usually 20 Watts difference during ordinary usage (24/7 per year relates 80-420 Euro Max, with 2 hours a day that's divided by 12 compared to watching just TV, and you have to divide this by 9 to get the difference between XBox 360 and PS3).

I think PS3 sucks up more watts compared to Xbox 360, but in this case I don't care "watts happening". I really don't think anyone made too big a deal out of this, it was pointed out as something to take into consideration when running F@H. Maybe someone lives at home still and their parents would like the added bill, no matter the good cause... Nevertheless, I really don't know why we are discussing watts happening or transformator size for that matter when should be comparing games.

Quote:

- Problems with overheating albeit possible, this seems actually more the case with regard to the XBox 360 with terminal results.

Apparently there have been some reports. Considering the fierceness of your onslaught on Xbox 360 on these issues, I think balanced reporting requires views from all sides. I do think so far PS3 seems to be faring well and I hope that continues, because I don't want to end up with a dead machine.

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- 1080p PS3 will be weak as the PS3 is not capable enough. Phase5, Ninja Theory disagree and have in-depth knowledge in this regard. They and others are producing some major blockbusters in 1080p.

I think you are exaggerating. At least not the quote you posted didn't confirm Trezzer said this. We did discuss the 720p vs. 1080p level of effects question though, and Trezzer is of the opinion that at 720p you can do better. I'm somewhere perhaps middle of you and Trezzer. I acknowledge strongly the argument behind staying at 720p, but at the same time am tempted enough to get full use of 1080p to follow with interest where the developments are leading. Like I said in those very first posts of mine on this topic, I dislike compromises and the "720p sweet spot" talk (from Microsoft too) sounds too much like one. We'll see how the future games will look at 720p and 1080p... it will be easier to compare and judge results then.

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- The motion sensing found with the PS3 is useless.

That would take quite a quote (in context too) to find. In some context maybe its usefullness has been discussed, but I don't think anyone here feels it couldn't be used for something. It is no Wii, though.

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- Claims of lots of people having problems with their PS3, actually overall users like their purchase and aren't experiencing major problems.

I'm sure there are people who have had problems with the PS3s, I've read of many myself, but that is bound to happen when product out there numbers in millions. I don't think any major fault has been found yet, I hope we never will.

Quote:

- Claims of bad backward compatibility, actually all PS3 offer by far more extensive backwards compatibility than the XBox 360 does.

It does, but then the argument wasn't quite as simple as that, now was it. The argument was by Trezzer and by myself as well, that here we have Europeans paying a premium and then getting a lesser product too. PS3 was supposed to offer near 100% backwards compatibility and this was nixed for Europe. I personally don't need it, but have read many angry forum postings from people who can't run their favorite games on the European PS3. No question it is better than Xbox 360, but then Microsoft never promised the moon from the sky either.

I would have had no problem with this lesser backwards compatibility if it hadn't been for Sony's marketing speech on near 100% for years (dissing Microsoft too) and releasing a better product at a lesser price in the U.S. and Japan first. That I think was a stupid move on their part. (It may well have been a good financial move, who knows, but as consumer I was disappointed.)

Quote:

- HDMI not offering advantages at all, alledged major handshake issues, but you don't criticize the XBox 360 Elite despite it only comes with HDMI 1.2 and will include handshakes as well.

I compared component and HDMI output on PS3 and saw no difference, so I don't think that necessarily makes HDMI very desirable. Being able to output video and sound through one cable and in all-digital is very nice though. Xbox 360 does offer the added benefit of VGA, which PS3 doesn't for some flexibility. Still, I think missing HDMI from the original Xbox 360 wasn't really the smartest move, I welcome Elite and I feel it is late from the party too. (OTOH, if that decision allowed Microsoft to include a good hardware scaler a year and a half ago, which PS3 doesn't seem to have in the same sense, then some good came out of it.)

HDMI is good and will get better as devices using it mature. Of course there are lots of people with handshake issues, but that is a problem with HDMI/HDCP and interoperability, not the fault of PS3. Only thing where Xbox 360 Elite can be better is that *IF* it doesn't require HDCP for games, that would lessen handshake issues compared to PS3.

Can we now drop these old debates and start discussing the current situation and comparing these machines from the point of what they are now?

I actually hope that Trezzer would go and pick up a PS3 so we could start hearing more experiences on comparing these systems.

Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Apr-2007 at 07:49 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Apr-2007 at 07:44 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 05-Apr-2007 at 07:43 AM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

To be precise, I said it has "some wow factor". An important detail that "some", nor have I played the game enough to see if it holds.

To be precise, I said "some people", An important detail "some people", "some people" may not even refer to you and certainly not exclusively.

@MikeB

Quote:

To be precise, I said "some people", An important detail "some people", "some people" may not even refer to you and certainly not exclusively.

Who else said that?

@jtsiren

Quote:

Maybe all PS3 games will end up being 1080p in the future, that certainly would not surprise me.

According to for instance Factor 5 that will be the case with all 3rd generation and most 2nd generation PS3 games. They consider 1080p the PS3's sweetspot, it's just about optimising the game engines for making good use of the new Cell processor and RSX grahics processor. At 1080p there are a lot more details, adding ever more effects will not make your games look any more realistic. A female with a little make-up usually looks better than if she overdoes it with the make-up.

Quote:

the "720p sweet spot" talk (from Microsoft too) sounds too much like one

Considering the XBox 360 is Microsoft's product let's just take their word for it and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Quote:

Who else said that?

In some of the older threads I quote various Ridge Racer fans.

Last edited by MikeB on 15-Apr-2007 at 05:43 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 05-Apr-2007 at 08:23 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 05-Apr-2007 at 08:14 AM.