@jtsiren

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That kind of quoting REALLY requires a context. Please, at least provide full paragraph or link to that

To put into context why I believe jtsiren is so willingly trying to back up Trezzer and AMiGR on this matter, he was involved in that discussion, but our differences of opinion go way back regarding the AmigaOS4 project actually (also AmigaOS4 vs MorphOS related, although I am not very interested in MorphOS discussions). With regard to the PS3, he stated (IMO chldishly) that he had become less interested in the PS3 due to my comments, yet failing to refer to which comments he was pointing to exactly. I stated that the clarifications and additional info I provided in response to Trezzer's comments and other people probably wasn't the true reason to make this statement, just a cheapshot.

To understand how all the fuss started maybe you want to start reading here. In the beginning the discussion regarded RR6 vs RR7 and me pointing towards one of Microsoft exec's wild 1080p claims we now all seem to agree on was an unwise decision or mistake, but back then it was mainly AMiGR and a few others trying to defend this statement.

@BrianK

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don't recall anyone saying this. But, it is not 7th generation. But as you recount the PS2 sells more then the 360 or the Wii. You do conveniently neglect that the PS2 sells more then the PS3, too.

I view both the PS2 and PS3 as Sony home consoles. The latter is compatible with the former but is a high end product, the PS2 however is targeted at the low end market and therefore IMO receives more competition from the Nintendo Wii.

See it like this Sony sells cheaper HDTVs as well as more expensive HDTVs, but products compliment each other as the cheaper model competes with cheaper product from rival companies, the more expensive model competes with the more higher end product from rival companies. It's very likely the cheaper model will sell more than the more expensive version, but when prices go down regarding the technology in the more expensive model the cheaper model may not be produced anymore due to the higher end model competing more directly with the lower end model. This is currently not yet the case regarding the PS3 and PS2, so both play an important yet different role within the market.

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Yet sales of Blu-Ray are 2:1 or 3:1

For Norht America (huge XBox 360 market, with HD-DVD addon available), for Japan for instance Blu-Ray enjoys a 98% market share, but my comment regarded Australia where the PS3 has just been launched 2 weeks ago.

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Thanks for the reminder on the 360 GPU it is more powerful

Full specs of the RSX are unknown, both have their advantages and disadvantages.

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ut obviously there's still a trade-off here that SPE is doing graphics not, for example, AI so the AI will in turn likely be weaker

Not per se, there are more than just one SPEs, each can be used for different things to work on.

@MikeB

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me pointing towards one of Microsoft exec's wild 1080p claims we now all seem to agree on was an unwise decision or mistake, but back then it was mainly AMiGR and a few others trying to defend this statement.

If you go back and look at the quotes you just took from AmiGR, you'll see that they are stil perfectly valid. He says that if the 360 GPU can't do it, the PS3's certainly can't either - i.e. the PS3's GPU is not as powerful as the 360's GPU.

It all comes back to the "sweet spot" - and the poorly formulated statement from the MS guy: If you want to achieve the detail level that most developers are aiming for in this generation (with effects, physics, texture quality etc.) 720p is the sweet spot. This was clarified by him and it's also something that simply makes sense due to the power of the GPUs and CPUs.

Where our opinions differ is that you seem to think that the CPU + GPU can handle the same at 1080p as it can at 720p - i.e. deliver the same visual fidelity. We say that in most cases (advanced next-gen engines) this won't be true.

Of course it comes down to what you're willing to accept. Would you rather have a game that chugs along at a comfortable 30 frames per second in 1080p or would you rather have it blaze ahead with 60 frames per second in 720p. Would you rather have spectacular visual effects in 720p or ok effects in 1080p.

I have a feeling that you'd choose 1080p with lower visual fidelity like no AA, less physics etc. (although some detail on the other hand would be improved simply by the higher resolution). I'd rather have the works - i.e. all the next-gen effects the machine can throw at me. After all if not I might as well (largely) be playing on the last generation of consoles.

Now I know you'll protest that the Cell + RSX can pull off whatever is necessary, and of course you're entitled to that opinion. So far I am of the conviction that we haven't seen that this is true. It's still too early to tell, though, but games like Lair certainly don't provide next-gen effects like I'm expecting to see from 720p titles like proper water physics (and yeah, jiyong the reflection wasn't good), high frame rates and so forth.

Of course I'd love to be proven wrong and that all games will look fantastic in 1080p and no compromises are made to go there from 720p. That would be great. I just don't think it will be the case.

@Trezzer

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Where our opinions differ is that you seem to think that the CPU + GPU can handle the same at 1080p as it can at 720p - i.e. deliver the same visual fidelity. We say that in most cases (advanced next-gen engines) this won't be true.

That's not quite how I would state this. I would say 1080p is more demanding (requiring roughly an estimated 1.6 times the processing power) like I stated in the past. I think the PS3 is more than capable enough to handle the best looking games (or much much better), we have seen so far for the XBox 360 and PS3 in fully native1080p.

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Of course I'd love to be proven wrong and that all games will look fantastic in 1080p and no compromises are made to go there from 720p. That would be great. I just don't think it will be the case.

Yes, we will see.

@MikeB

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The latter is compatible with the former but is a high end product, the PS2 however is targeted at the low end market and therefore IMO receives more competition from the Nintendo Wii.

All I can say is you are out of the norm. Consumers and market analysts see 7th gen as Wii vs 360 vs PS3. They don't see 7th gen as 360 vs PS3 and 6th gen PS2 vs Wii. But, doing the later allows Sony to win on all fronts as you can now conveniently neglect the clear advantage in sales the Wii has over the PS3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_seventh-generation_game_consoles#Comparison

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Full specs of the RSX are unknown, both have their advantages and disadvantages

I think more then enough is known about both the RSX and Xenos to allow developers and those more technical to do these comparisons. I guess my money is on those more technical who in the comparisons give the advantage to the Xenos.

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Quote: there's still a trade-off here that SPE is doing graphics not, for example, AI so the AI will in turn likely be weaker Not per se, there are more than just one SPEs, each can be used for different things to work on.

Yes per say. Obviously there's more then 1 SPE. Here's a watered down simplistic explaination. Game compile one has 6 SPES doing AI and RSX doing graphics.. Game compile two has 5 SPES doing AI and RSX + SPE doing graphics. Undoubtably there's a trade-off here and the developer will best select the balance they want out of their game. You're not going to have the ability to be as detailed graphically on compile 1 and your creatures are a bit less or a bit dummer on compile 2. Again this is simplistic but I hope you get the point there are trade-offs especially when one is pushing the limits of a console.

@BrianK

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All I can say is you are out of the norm. Consumers and market analysts see 7th gen as Wii vs 360 vs PS3. They don't see 7th gen as 360 vs PS3 and 6th gen PS2 vs Wii. But, doing the later allows Sony to win on all fronts as you can now conveniently neglect the clear advantage in sales the Wii has over the PS3.

It's just a way to simplify things for people, the PS3 is only 3rd gen in the range of Playstation products. Never have all 'same gen' consoles been released on the same day, so some may be considered between gens depending on your perspectives, in terms of for instance launch date or in terms of technical specifications. IMO it doesn't matter that much if you view the PS3 as 8th gen or the Wii and PS2 as 6.5 gen, what matters is that they are all *current* gen and how they are performing within the market and what the future prospects are.

If some other company releases another gaming console on the market next year, would that make this console 8th gen or 7th gen? And what if the console is specced below the PS2's specs at for instance an even cheaper price point, would that make the console 6th or even 5th gen?

Both the PS2 and PS3 are selling in the millions globally, so IMO both are current gen products.

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Yes per say.

IMO not per se, PS3 exclusive developers are still exploring the huge amount of headroom the PS3 offers. With current games and games in the near future there need not be such trade-offs you speak about. We may see trade-offs though, but I think mostly regarding XBox 360 games being ported to the PS3 and maybe at some point vice versa or trade-offs for both platforms to suit common strengths and weaknesses. Porting top PS3 and XBox 360 games to the Wii may result in really major trade-offs.

Last edited by MikeB on 05-Apr-2007 at 05:14 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 05-Apr-2007 at 05:05 PM.

@MikeB

Yes Mike, it's always people that have an agenda against you that disagree with you. You cannot possibly ever be wrong, it's against the nature of the universe for MikeB to be wrong.

Moreover, for the nth time, my post was ***not*** about this. It was about your extremely poor quoting skills. As I stated in the other message we've had our argument about this and do not agree. That's that, it won't go any further. This does not in any way invalidate what the post you conveniently ignored stated. But you do not appear to have the decency to take in what people tell you, you just reply to their... so called motives instead.

Last edited by AMiGR on 05-Apr-2007 at 05:54 PM.

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@MikeB

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Both the PS2 and PS3 are selling in the millions globally, so IMO both are current gen products.

Sony seems to disagree.. They called both the ps2 and wii for prev generation consoles.

@MikeB

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Both the PS2 and PS3 are selling in the millions globally, so IMO both are current gen products.

Maybe you can even find two or three people on the internet that agree with you.

Seriously, though, the PS2 was part of the last generation of consoles that started with the Dreamcast and ended with the Xbox from a launch perspective.

The fact that some of the machines are still selling is irrelevant in the generation perspective. Would you consider the NES a current generation machine if it were still selling?

@AMiGR

I quoted exactly the paragrpah I wasn't agreeing with, IMO that's a very normal approach. So what I am not agreeing with is that all 1080p games will be weak, please note that Trezzer made this statement before the XBox 360 added 1080p as an option and he did not know that overall Namco did indeed add quite a few details to Ridge Racer 7 at 1080p. I think the misleading article made him confident enough to make this statement.

What context should I have added when clearly it's just this paragraph of one of his many messages on this issue I was referring to?

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Yes Mike, it's always people that have an agenda against you that disagree with you. You cannot possibly ever be wrong, it's against the nature of the universe for MikeB to be wrong.

Aw, how sweet.

@Tomas

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Sony seems to disagree.. They called both the ps2 and wii for prev generation consoles.

It all depends on perspectives, in the past they clasified game consoles based on their CPUs, such as 8-bit consoles and 16-bit consoles, in this sense the Nintendo Wii can be considered an older gen type of product.

@Trezzer

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The fact that some of the machines are still selling is irrelevant in the generation perspective. Would you consider the NES a current generation machine if it were still selling?

If the console sold in the millions and topped the game charts like the PS2 does, then from a market perspective yes I would, but from a technical perspective I wouldn't. I guess to truly succeed with such a fictious product, the console would be marketed as a very low-end product, well below the PS2's league, maybe similar to those c64 joysticks we have been seeing, with games pre-installed as the cost of producing and shipping new cartridges doesn't seem viable to me (shipping best seller PS2 games like God of War 2 is totally another matter IMO).

Last edited by MikeB on 05-Apr-2007 at 06:27 PM.

@MikeB

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Yes, we will see.

I'm afraid we won't get to a point where we agree though. Considering that you consider Lair's graphics state of the art probably means you'll be happy with the graphics before I am no matter what the scenario is.

Before you go on a 360 vs PS3 crusade here, I'd like to point out that it goes for both consoles.

@MikeB

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please note that Trezzer made this statement before the XBox 360 added 1080p as an option and he did not know that overall Namco did indeed add quite a few details to Ridge Racer 7 at 1080p.

You forget something. I've never said that Ridge Racer 6/7 were proper next-gen games. They are very simple from a technical point of view. They look fine and they play fine, but they aren't next gen games in the same way that Motorstorm or PGR3 are.

So I'd appreciate it if you stop making it out as if I have somehow changed my mind about the matter which is certainly not the case. You are the only one who has been pushing the Ridge Racer games as next-generation racing games (besides the fact that they are running on next-gen platforms - that doesn't necessarily make them next-gen games like Genji 2 for PS3 and TMNT for 360 show).

@MikeB

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If the console sold in the millions and topped the game charts like the PS2 does, then from a market perspective yes I would, but from a technical perspective I wouldn't.

So you surely agree the PS2 is a last generation console which is still selling nicely - just like the PSOne did when PS2 came out.

@Trezzer

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You forget something. I've never said that Ridge Racer 6/7 were proper next-gen games. They are very simple from a technical point of view. They look fine and they play fine, but they aren't next gen games in the same way that Motorstorm or PGR3 are.

I may not have played PGR3 much but I consider the game more in the RR6/7 league than within Motorstorm's league in terms of game complexity (cars flying far above you from hill to hill, vehicles breaking down, explosions, etc).

@MikeB

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I may not have played PGR3 much but I consider the game more in the RR6/7 league

I don't even consider RR6/7 to be in PGR2's league from a technical point of view - even if they do have a larger number of levels and a higher resolution. PGR3 is still somewhat arcade-like, but it's far more of a simulation and in terms of visual effects it's nearer Motorstorm than the Ridge Racer games. But like I've pointed out previous it's hard to compare an offroad racer to a street racer.

Motorstorm needs to do more physics while PGR3 needs to draw more due to the course design. It was a launch title and does not push the 360 to the limits by any means, but the visuals are definitely far superior to Ridge Racer and nearer Motorstorm (as far as the two can be compared).

@MikeB

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It's just a way to simplify things for people, the PS3 is only 3rd gen in the range of Playstation products. Never have all 'same gen' consoles been released on the same day, so some may be considered between gens depending on your perspectives

The Wii being 6th Gen and standing in opposition to the PS2 and having no impact on PS3 or 360 sales whatsoever is safely a position you enjoy nearly alone.

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Both the PS2 and PS3 are selling in the millions globally, so IMO both are current gen products

PS2 is last gen not current gen. PS2 won the 6th gen wars w/ 70%+ marketshare. The PS2 is hanging on because there is a time when last gen + new gen cross over in sales and the PS2 is the last 6th gen console still being sold. The 7th gen marketshare is determined by Wii vs 360 vs PS3.

But then again perhaps you think the PS3 will do so poorly the PS3 will be cancelled and the PS2 continued to manufactured past the PS3 date? So perhaps the last gen Sony will beat the current gen Sony.

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If some other company releases another gaming console on the market next year, would that make this console 8th gen or 7th gen?

It depends on how the market views the technology.

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IMO not per se,

The issue here appears that you don't get hardware. You are now talking about porting games between the PS3 and Wii which is completely irrevalent to the points I made on how trade-offs work w/ SPE included or excluded in usage for graphics rendering.

@Trezzer
I still like ridge racer better due to the feel of speed thanks to 60fps even if the game is less visually stunning and less realistic. 30 fps for a racing game is just way too low in my opinion.

Sony says rumble is coming to the PS3.
Sony now says GTHD v 1.2 will include Force Feedback.
--- We users of the PS3 thank you Sony for including last gen features in the current gen.

Also for those in the UK. Play.com has announced a £25 price drop, HDMI cable, and copy of Blu-Ray movie - Click. While the 2nd week has brought an 82% purchase drop of the PS3 in the UK the price drop and inclusions step you a little closer to the lower pricing enjoyed in other parts of the world.