@Lou

Quote:

My PC is top of the line for 2003 (yes, 2003) and I run WoW @ 1280x1024 with all the bells and whistles without a hiccup.

I think this was to be expected, for this sort of game they want to reach an as wide as possible audience, so running well on yesteryear's hardware configuration is a good idea.

I think this sort of game could easily be done on a PS3 running at 1080p (1920 × 1080) together with all your the bells and whistles and some more, but with regard to WoW they may need to write a new engine to get the most out of a PS3 version.

Quote:

WoW uses 440MB of my system's memory when it runs, not counting the graphics card usage. How much RAM does the PS3 have available to the cpu again?

The CPU can access both if needed, note the XDR RAM is extremely fast as well as the PS3 system bandwidth, the system can move around huge amounts of data at great speed, much data can be streamed and flushed if needed. The amount of RAM is huge for a game console, this cannot be directly compared to a PC, for instance just to keep WIndows running in the background eats up enormous amounts of performance and memory. As the PS3 minimal specs are shared by million of gamers, this helpds developers to better fine tune their game engines.

BTW, I am probably getting Oblivion for the PS3. The game may not have been designed around the PS3, but it looks like a quality port and it's great to have a game like this being released so early in the PS3 lifecycle. I was tempted to buy the XBox 360 version as I think the game is the XBox 360's best overall game, now I am glad I haven't!

Oblivion PS3 review:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?type=mov&id=18458

Last edited by MikeB on 11-Apr-2007 at 03:57 PM.

@Lou
Quote:

WoW uses 440MB of my system's memory when it runs, not counting the graphics card usage. How much RAM does the PS3 have available to the cpu again?

256MB is available to the Cell. 256MB is shared between the Cell and GPU. Don't forget to subtract the OS. That's estimated to be about 96MB with an additional 10MB needed for friends listing. So the developer would have about 400MB to play with how they wanted. To do WoW the developer would have to do some creative work to ensure good performance and good visuals with more limited resources then the PC.

I've read rumors that the PS3 could possibly use an SD card for memory similar readyboost in VISTA. If this rumor is true perhaps they could ship WoW along with a 1GB SD card to ensure users have enough memory.

@BrianK

Quote:

256MB is available to the Cell. 256MB is shared between the Cell and GPU. Don't forget to subtract the OS. That's estimated to be about 96MB with an additional 10MB needed for friends listing.

The OS uses 96megs of ram? That is just insane
Quote:

I've read rumors that the PS3 could possibly use an SD card for memory similar readyboost in VISTA. If this rumor is true perhaps they could ship WoW along with a 1GB SD card to ensure users have enough memory.

I think that sounds very far fetched, as SD card will only be able to push that at a fraction of the speed of RAM and thus will not be of any good use with games.

I already knew the gpu had 256MB and the cpu had 256MB. It was a rhetorical question.

That said, the cpu cannot quickly access the gpu's memory, however the gpu can access the cpu's memory.
I may have that backwards, but I know there is a major performance hit either going gpu accessing the cpu's memory bank or the cpu accessing the gpu's memory bank.

This poor performance was documented by Sony and displayed during some developer's conference from last year. Basically, the PS3 has 256MB of RAM available to it and the GPU has it's own.

From that perspective, there is no way the PS3, or Wii can run WoW. There is nothing random about WoW that could be made to run procedurally on SPE's. Perhaps some statistics on the minimum requirements for the MAC version could shed some more light.

ps,
The Wii enjoyed it's 3rd biggest sales week in the UK since launch this past week due to an extra shipment of stock: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=24120

and yes, before you ask, it outsold the PS3 and 360.

Last edited by Lou on 11-Apr-2007 at 05:29 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

256MB is available to the Cell. 256MB is shared between the Cell and GPU.

The Cell processor can access the RSX's 256MB of GDDR3, and vice versa. The Cell can access the RSX memory, but at less bandwidth than vice versa. I don't share your memory concerns with regard to games at all, 60 GB harddrive for temporary data storage, more then tenfold the available memory as compared to the PS2, Blu-Ray data streaming in combination with the calculating muscle of the Cell, etc.

BTW, I've read on many occasions here at AmigaWorld that UMD for movies would be a dead format, so I was surprised to learn that UMD movie sales were up 35% in 2006 compared to 2005... I guess that's good for game developers as well, the more UMD discs are being mass produced, this will likely have a positive effect on costs regarding gaming purposes as well.

Last edited by MikeB on 11-Apr-2007 at 05:44 PM.

@MikeB
The umd sales are still very low.. And is it surprising? Why would anyone right in their head pay the same as a dvd for a umd video that can only be watched on the handheld and has vhs like quality?
UMD could have been a success if it was much cheaper or if they sold dvds that included a udm or vice versa.

Last edited by Tomas on 11-Apr-2007 at 05:49 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

I've read rumors that the PS3 could possibly use an SD card for memory similar readyboost in VISTA. If this rumor is true perhaps they could ship WoW along with a 1GB SD card to ensure users have enough memory.

Readyboost is a caching technique and not used as some kind of memory-extension. Although access times of flash-memory are usually great, sequential reading/writing operations would be much too slow for such purpose.

Last edited by hatschi on 11-Apr-2007 at 05:51 PM.

@Tomas

Quote:

The umd sales are still very low.. And is it surprising? Why would anyone right in their head pay the same as a dvd for a umd video that can only be watched on the handheld and has vhs like quality? UMD could have been a success if it was much cheaper or if they sold dvds that included a udm or vice versa.

Personally I wouldn't have much use for this neither, in distant past I did watch DVDs on my previous laptop while travelling by train, I certainly prefer the larger screen for this.

I just wanted to point out the format is not dead, people tend to exaggerate, like was the case of claiming Blu-Ray is dead due to HD-DVD great 'success'.

Last edited by MikeB on 11-Apr-2007 at 06:44 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

That said, the cpu cannot quickly access the gpu's memory, however the gpu can access the cpu's memory. I may have that backwards, but I know there is a major performance hit either going gpu accessing the cpu's memory bank or the cpu accessing the gpu's memory bank.

Yes each can access each other, sorry if my layout of the answer made it seem otherwise. There is a large latency hit for the RSX to grab data through the Cell's memory controller. The G70 derived RSX has larger buffers and caches to help offset some of the latency. I think the PS3 could handle WoW but certainly programming changes to the source would have to occur to the software to make this happen on the different architecture of the PS3. Definitely one change would likely come in how WoW handles memory.

Some interesting quotes regarding Heavenly Sword, probably a game which is going to up the ante for God of War3!



"In Heavenly Sword, the Cell enables incredible numbers of enemies to be on screen at one time. The trick is that Cell treats entire regiments as a single unit of artificial intelligence when they are at a distance; as they draw closer, Cell gradually divides the army into smaller and smaller groups, so they eventually become individual troops with unique fighting styles and tactics."



From a developer:

"According to DeanoC blog, the game can calculate AI for 2180 enemy soldiers.

Slightly more now, we hit that limit... so I managed to pack the data more (each grunts state is down to 48 bytes from 64) so our current high is ~2400. In theory we could get near 3K if we need to we should now have the RAM to go that high, just haven't needed to test it yet)."



"Bloody impressive you can have it running on one single SPU with all the data available. You are able to parse through the horde of soldiers over and over again without touching the main RAM. Now that is how to make the Cell sing.

It was one of the fundamental technical decisions I made back when I started. I'm not sure it was nessecarily the best choice but it works quite well, if you don't mind be very frugal with what each grunt stores.
Each grunt is split into two separate bits of state, its AI state (32 bytes) and 16 bytes thats just output render state for the render engine (that's not keep in memory for the AI SPU program).

The first SPU task does a spatial sort and fires off a SPU task for each non empty chunk of the battlefield. These tasks do the AI for all the grunts in there chunk, apart from a few rare atomic ops (for gameplay statistics and grunts issuing 'events' (which are the name of big things like explosion)) the AI runs out of its own RAM from start to finish (all grunts and its local heightfield and battlefield, battalion and unit data is in LS).

Which means you can program it like a normal processor and the AI code doesn't have to worry too much about DMA or synchronisation... Its taking care before and after its bit, which is nice"

BTW IMO insomniac's new game Ratchet and Clank looks fantastic as well:

http://images.playsyde.com/gallery/public/5189/1233_0001.jpg
http://images.playsyde.com/gallery/public/5189/1233_0010.jpg
http://images.playsyde.com/gallery/public/5189/1233_0011.jpg
http://images.playsyde.com/gallery/public/5189/1233_0013.jpg

I haven't played the prior games, but I'm gonna get this one.

Last edited by MikeB on 11-Apr-2007 at 09:18 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: I already knew the gpu had 256MB and the cpu had 256MB. It was a rhetorical question. That said, the cpu cannot quickly access the gpu's memory, however the gpu can access the cpu's memory. I may have that backwards, but I know there is a major performance hit either going gpu accessing the cpu's memory bank or the cpu accessing the gpu's memory bank. This poor performance was documented by Sony and displayed during some developer's conference from last year. Basically, the PS3 has 256MB of RAM available to it and the GPU has it's own. From that perspective, there is no way the PS3, or Wii can run WoW. There is nothing random about WoW that could be made to run procedurally on SPE's. Perhaps some statistics on the minimum requirements for the MAC version could shed some more light. ps, The Wii enjoyed it's 3rd biggest sales week in the UK since launch this past week due to an extra shipment of stock: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=24120 and yes, before you ask, it outsold the PS3 and 360.

Unfortunately, you seem to be missing the point in regards to console gaming and PC gaming. Consoles are made for playing games, first and foremost. Because of that, they are more capable of doing things with their resources than a PC (no bloated windows XP etc in the background to worry about). Game designer also know what to expect from the console hardware. They know what CPU, what GFX chipset to program/develop for. The PC is a different story.

In regards to your "there is no way the PS3, or Wii can run WoW", if blizzard developed for it to be on a PS3 or even an Xbox 360 (probably not a Wii, but then again, if you know what you are developing to), it's more than possible given it's recommended PC requirements for TBC (min 512MB, recommended 1GB RAM). But wait, the 360 and the PS3 don't have that much RAM. Well, they both have Oblivion and both play Oblivion well. 1GB is recommended for the PC version. How were they able to get it to look so damn good with those "limited resources". There is no way that a $AUD1,000 (cost of the PS3 here in Australia) PC can play Oblivion as well as the PS3 or 360.

_________________
Amiga 4000 CSPPC [retired]
Intel i7 3930K @ 4.3Ghz / Corsair H100 / Asus Rampage IV Extreme / 16 GB / 2 x 240GB Corsair Force GT SSD / 2 x EVGA 2GB 680GTX SC Sig / 3 x Benq XL2420T
27" iMac / i7 @ 3.4 / 680mx / 3TB Fusion / 32GB RAM

@KrasH

Quote:

Unfortunately, you seem to be missing the point in regards to console gaming and PC gaming. Consoles are made for playing games, first and foremost. Because of that, they are more capable of doing things with their resources than a PC (no bloated windows XP etc in the background to worry about). Game designer also know what to expect from the console hardware. They know what CPU, what GFX chipset to program/develop for. The PC is a different story.

They will of course be able to push more out of the hardware when concentrating on just one configuration, but the ever increasing power of computers will eat up that perfomance gain. In just one year from now the perfomance of pcs will have increased significantly while the consoles stay at the same level. Do you really think the xbox 360 or the ps3 will compete when it comes to graphic perfomance in one year from now? It sure did not take long before computers significantly outperformed the previous generation of consoles.

@BrianK

Quote:

How funny is that spend $600 to saw it apart so you can play illegal copies of a console that would cost you $130 to get.

New exteriors for the PS2 have been available for years, just to do the same trick.

You could consider doing this to your PS3 and kick out the PS2 to save space and fiddling with connections (like video and audio).

Last edited by jiyong on 11-Apr-2007 at 11:21 PM.

MikeB wrote:

Quote:

The water in the game has its own realistic physics and is running in real time. You will have to see it in action, it's actually pretty impressive.

I finally found a video which does provide a good view on Lair's water:
http://download.gametrailers.com/gt_vault/t_ps3_playbeyond_control.wmv

@Lou

Quote:

the 20GB model is no more...like I predicted in several a prior PS3 thread...

Just hold your horses. They are very hard to get, but still available. For how long? I don't know.

And have you remembered what else you predicted for the future?

@Lou

Quote:

The Wii enjoyed it's 3rd biggest sales week in the UK since launch this past week due to an extra shipment of stock: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=24120 and yes, before you ask, it outsold the PS3 and 360.

Well, PS3 sales seem to be very strong in Europe and "Rest Of World" (getting close to a million according to VGCharts). The 82% drop in UK sales has not been analyzed deeply. A lot of people have been crying victory over Sony, but I have the suspicion the UK is running out of stock real quick.

If the PS3 theoretically would have topped the UK Wii sales if potential shortage wouldn't have played a factor, will never be proven, but I think things look very good for the PS3 in Europe and ROW.

@jiyong

Quote:

Well, PS3 sales seem to be very strong in Europe and "Rest Of World" (getting close to a million according to VGCharts). The 82% drop in UK sales has not been analyzed deeply. A lot of people have been crying victory over Sony, but I have the suspicion the UK is running out of stock real quick.

All high street shops in Nottingham, including HMV and even John Lewis, have it in stock.

_________________

@jiyong

Quote:

Just hold your horses. They are very hard to get, but still available. For how long? I don't know.

Not very, they've put out a press release saying it's been canned in the US.

If anything though it's a good sign, it shows price isn't quite the factor it's portrayed as since the 60GB was by far (90%) the most popular.

_________________
Whyzzat?

@jiyong

Quote:

jiyong wrote: @Lou Quote: the 20GB model is no more...like I predicted in several a prior PS3 thread... Just hold your horses. They are very hard to get, but still available. For how long? I don't know. And have you remembered what else you predicted for the future?

Let me spell it out for you:
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/04/11/r-i-p-playstation-3-20gb-is-officially-no-more/

Yes, keep my predictions firmly implanted in the back of your mind.

A blu-ray burner for a PC for $500,
http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/26/samsung-sh-b022-blu-ray-burner-reviewer/
who saw that coming?

@Tomas

Quote:

Tomas wrote: @KrasH Quote: Unfortunately, you seem to be missing the point in regards to console gaming and PC gaming. Consoles are made for playing games, first and foremost. Because of that, they are more capable of doing things with their resources than a PC (no bloated windows XP etc in the background to worry about). Game designer also know what to expect from the console hardware. They know what CPU, what GFX chipset to program/develop for. The PC is a different story. They will of course be able to push more out of the hardware when concentrating on just one configuration, but the ever increasing power of computers will eat up that perfomance gain. In just one year from now the perfomance of pcs will have increased significantly while the consoles stay at the same level. Do you really think the xbox 360 or the ps3 will compete when it comes to graphic perfomance in one year from now? It sure did not take long before computers significantly outperformed the previous generation of consoles.

My current PC setup would probably out perform either console in the graphics in games department, since in my honest opinion, Oblivion on my PC looks and runs better than Oblivion on the consoles. But my setup cost $4000+ (even though the 5200+ is the bottleneck and I'm going to be buying a faster CPU in the next few weeks. Yay for AMD price drop coming soon). Of course PC's will get faster, overtaking the consoles (High end PC's already have), I'm not disputing that.

"Since the pentium was released in 1993, processors have been steadily doubling in raw performance roughly every 24 months"
- Atomic, issue 74 March, 2007.

Which brings me to a part of my second paragraph:

Quote:

There is no way that a $AUD1,000 (cost of the PS3 here in Australia) PC can play Oblivion as well as the PS3 or 360.

When will a $AUD 1,000 ($US800) PC be able to compete against the 360 or PS3? That's the $64,000 question.

Last edited by KrasH on 12-Apr-2007 at 08:21 AM.

_________________
Amiga 4000 CSPPC [retired]
Intel i7 3930K @ 4.3Ghz / Corsair H100 / Asus Rampage IV Extreme / 16 GB / 2 x 240GB Corsair Force GT SSD / 2 x EVGA 2GB 680GTX SC Sig / 3 x Benq XL2420T
27" iMac / i7 @ 3.4 / 680mx / 3TB Fusion / 32GB RAM