@AMiGR

Quote:

The things I did post were common sense, logic, general knowledge regarding GPUs, plus reading up on the specs of the RSX, Cell, Xenos and Xenon.

With regard to the first that's my approach as well, with regard to the latter not all information is public or verified so I involve my personal experience and take advantage of the extensibe in-depth knowledge provided by people with the technical know-how.

@Tomas

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The articles is in danish and norwegian.

You can still give the link, right? I have worked for Sonofon in Denmark (Aalborg), so I know a bit of Danish.

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Well, they still have it in stock from what i heard, so that just cannot be correct. Are you sure they have not gotten another supply?

I didn't say the UK wasn't resupplied, all I said is I couldn't find the information.

So as long as we don't have that information, we can't say anything about availability.
Sure you can have your reports about a couple of shops, but is that representative for a whole country?

@jiyong
Here you go: http://www.recordere.dk/indhold/templates/design.aspx?articleid=1188&zoneid=19
It does mention that the sales are very disappointing compared to the supply and that there is currently more supply than demand. To me this sounds like there has in fact been more supply if your numbers are correct.

Last edited by Tomas on 13-Apr-2007 at 09:44 PM.

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Lou wrote: @Hammer Quote: Hammer wrote: @Lou Why ATI Radeon X1650 XT? Refer to http://castle.pricewatch.com/s/search.asp?s=X1900 For ATI Radeon X1900GT. Replace IGP equiped motherboard with IGP-less motherboard. IT was the first one I found on Tiger for under $200 that was descent. What's IGP stand for?

Intergrated Graphics Processor i.e. GeForce 6150.

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@Tomas

Well, the 220.000 for UK launch was all over the internet: Google

The other numbers were supplied by you. Why are you doubting the numbers all of a sudden? Because they don't match with the story? Who says the story is true?

As I have said before, we need more information about resupplies for the UK before we can conclude more about the situation.

I did the calculation to put things into perspective.

Do note, I'm not saying the PS3 is sold out in the UK.

Last edited by jiyong on 14-Apr-2007 at 05:01 AM.

@AMiGR

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AMiGR wrote: @Lou&jiyong Guys, chill out. Moreover, what was said earlier about quoting was not just for MikeB, it was for everyone: Do no misquote.

I'm sorry AMiGR, but I am not going to chill out. I have had it with Lou.

Ok, so I didn't take the exact quotes from Lou, but I didn't do it from memory either, I just copied the text of my previous post in the other thread.

I don't see how anyone could accuse me of putting words in someones mouth if you take the exact quotes and my summary.

These are the quotes from Lou:

Quote:

Posted on 27-Feb-2007 13:04:06 By Christmas, blue-ray players will probably cost as much as an Xbox Posted on 28-Feb-2007 13:06:04 I don't see Sony continuing the 20GB PS3 for much longer Anyway, there will be no PS3 price drop this year Posted on 28-Feb-2007 20:04:19 I don't even expect the 20GB version to be built after this calendar year

My summary:

1-1-2008 or earlier is the end for 20 GB PS3 and only one model PS3 will be sold
1-1-2008 BR players (so not just a hypothetical add-on for 360) cost as much as an XBOX (I assume you mean the 360 Premium?)
1-1-2008 PS3 60 GB still costs $599

In that same thread, Lou is claiming he only made one prediction for X-Mas 07, I hope you will forgive me that one week, as that was because the other predictions were about X-Mas 08. But judging from the reply from Lou he already understood it wasn't about that one week.

Quote:

Posted on 2-Mar-2007 13:16:35 You seem to be pulling X-Mas 07 out of your #### as all I've said about this year is the 20GB verision of the PS3 will be poop-canned soon so it's not even worth comparing and all comparisons today are useless

Again my "friend" Lou, you have a strange memory. Care to repeat your accusation again?

@AMiGR

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If that's what you got out of all my arguments regarding GPUs and graphics then there is no reason for me to talk to you at all: You do not listen.

1) You do not have all the facts regarding the PS3's GPU.
2) You neglect the graphical powerhouse the Cell is.
3) You get too upset if people don't agree with you.

A good watch for you and other people criticizing amazingly complex and massive 1080p games:



IMO the following walkthrough footage is truly amazing, well beyond the XBox 360's league. Amazing scale, the Cell handling the realtime progressive mesh:

PART1. http://www.gametrailers.com/player.p...18580&type=wmv
PART2. http://www.gametrailers.com/player.p...18585&type=wmv

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Apr-2007 at 04:43 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 14-Apr-2007 at 04:40 PM.

MikeB wrote:

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The Cell processor can access the RSX's 256MB of GDDR3, and vice versa. The Cell can access the RSX memory, but at less bandwidth than vice versa. I don't share your memory concerns with regard to games at all, 60 GB harddrive for temporary data storage, more then tenfold the available memory as compared to the PS2, Blu-Ray data streaming in combination with the calculating muscle of the Cell, etc.

Factor5:

"You have to figure out how to stream. Lair streams its geometry and its textures. If you have got enough assets which are streaming, the 512 megabytes are adequate. And if you have a large enough media to store those textures.

Yes. Lair basically is the only game out there which gives you a 20,000 feet view as well as the one meter level view at pretty much the same detail level. Lair is also the only game which does all of its light in real time, and the atmospheric calculations. That gives us the day and nights cycle, the fluid dynamic simulations in the water. That wouldn’t have been possible half a year ago. We needed more time for that. You need the SPUs for that. Extensive streaming."

MikeB wrote:

Quote:

This is Factor5's first PS3 game, imagine how much they learned and be able to push a second generation game!

Factor 5:

"The interesting question becomes “oh boy, we could go on forever optimizing for the PlayStation 3.” The PS 3 has more of the situation where you could go another six months easily and forever. You can get so much more power. "

[edit]
@ hatschi

Thanks, sorry for all the Phase5 cheerleading...

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Apr-2007 at 02:12 PM.

@MikeB

It's Factor5 (Turrican, Katakis, ...), not Phase5 (BlizzardPPC, CyberstormPPC, ...) who are developing "Lair".

@jiyong

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The other numbers were supplied by you. Why are you doubting the numbers all of a sudden? Because they don't match with the story? Who says the story is true?

But why do you seem so convinced that they have infact not sent out new supplies? Why should this article be so wrong? I know for a fact that they send out new supplies here every now and then, so why should it be so damn different in the UK?

All i was doing was linking to a NEWS article, and then you seem to be all over me, because you seem convinced that i am either lying or that the article is all wrong, which is obviously my fault as well?

One thing for sure, is that there are still plenty of consoles left in stocks.

@MikeB

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Lair basically is the only game out there which gives you a 20,000 feet view as well as the one meter level view at pretty much the same detail level.

This sounds bad to me. Go take a plane ride can you read license plates at 20,000 feet with your eyes? NOPE.. Yet you're claim is the detail is the same so the PS3 will render the license plates such that they're readable at 20,000 feet? How bad is this? Part of the component in distance is how details lose their crispness and start to blend in together. Everything might be clear but telling you're at 20,000 feet will be lost if that detail is the same. My bet is the detail isn't to the same level as the developers would want to preserve the aspect of depth/height.

**Edit: The trailers you linked to clearly show you to be wrong. The details close up are definitely more detailed then details farther away. Depth appears to be preserved. Sorry but it doesn't appear that details are the same at all levels.

Last edited by BrianK on 14-Apr-2007 at 05:36 PM.

@Tomas

The reason I'm all over you is that I get a bit sick and tired of people throwing with numbers without getting to the story behind them.

I didn't call you a liar, as you might be perfectly right that the interest for the PS3 in the UK has severely dropped compared to the launch weekend, but you can't prove it from these numbers alone. That's all I said.

My last response was because all of a sudden you start questioning if these numbers are correct, while you brought up most of them yourself. Now that's a bit strange in my opinion.

I am not convinced the UK wasn't resupplied and I never claimed that, all I said is that I can't find the numbers. Once we have these numbers we can draw some more conclusions.

I would appreciate it if you would take the time to read my posts carefully.

@jiyong

Quote:

The reason I'm all over you is that I get a bit sick and tired of people throwing with numbers without getting to the story behind them.

All i did was quote from and link to a article with these numbers.
Is okay to not trust the source/article, but you dont have to get all ####y at the messenger.

@MikeB

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1) You do not have all the facts regarding the PS3's GPU. 2) You neglect the graphical powerhouse the Cell is.

See? You really did not get my argument at all, even after I explained it so so many times that everyone and their pet cat, dog, turtle, rabbit and hamster would get it. *At all*. As... I was not talking about the bloody RSX, I was talking about *ANY* GPU of *ANY* generation, on *ANY* system, *generally*. The point was simple: The development studios could use 720p and use the extra cycles that would otherwise be used to draw at a higher resolution to draw more polygons, more effects and everything at a higher quality.

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3) You get too upset if people don't agree with you.

No, I get too upset when people *ignore* me and my opinion, dismissing it like trash without actually proving me wrong. I have on waaaay too many occasions to post here admitted to have been wrong and apologised when people *proved* me wrong.

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A good watch for you and other people criticizing amazingly complex and massive 1080p games:

Ehm, sorry to point it out to you, but this is FAR less complex than the 3D Mark '06 Canyon Flight Demo:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
Image 4
Image 5

Etc...

The video is rather nice but there are some negative points. General comments, with positive as well as negative points:
o Jaggies (no anti-aliasing) - Can also be seen on some of the 3DMark shots, but you can enable FSAA there.
o The waves created by firing into the water are extremely unrealistic, waves at sea do not look like shockwaves that go away just like that.
o The particle effects aren't very impressive, especially the water jets near ship explosions.
o The water shader looks very good from an angle and from a distance but not that good close up when looked at from above.
o The wall destruction physics look rather nice.
o It seems to use the motion sensors quite nicely.
o The mountains aren't *that* detailed.
o The key word to the "same detail level" claim is "pretty much". There definitely is a LOD simplifying going on and it would generally be idiotic not to have that, LOD isn't just about performance, there's *no point* in drawing polygons that will not be visible at a distance.

Ok: Graphically, there is absolutely nothing in this game that cannot be done on any modern GPU, be that the RSX, the Xenos, and any recent (G70 or equivalent or better) PC one.

The interesting part is the physics simulations. They can be handled by any PC, they do not look *that* complex. They *should* be able to be handled by the Xenos, with some GPU Physics middleware like Havoc FX, especially considering that neither the RSX nor the Xenos should break a sweat to render this, they should have quite a few shader cycles free.

Anyway, it still is interesting to see but claims that this is "well beyond the XBox 360's league" are pretty ignorant. Will we see PS3 games that are "well beyond the XBox 360's league"? I do not know, if people manage to fully utilise the SPUs, which will happen given enough time, possibly, it's not really something I rule out at all. Depends on many factors, including the actual capabilities of the RSX and Xenos.

Finally: No matter what I stated about the game *technically*, it really is a game I would absolutely *love* to play, I really really really like dragons, especially the flame breathing variety!

Last edited by AMiGR on 14-Apr-2007 at 08:56 PM.

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@BrianK

Quote:

**Edit: The trailers you linked to clearly show you to be wrong. The details close up are definitely more detailed then details farther away. Depth appears to be preserved. Sorry but it doesn't appear that details are the same at all levels.

Note that I am quoting Factor5 there.

Of course when objects are further away, they would normally be displayed with fewer pixels, but the sight will be clearer as compared to 720p games, So IMO in a game like this 1080p clearly offers a clear advantage (more pixels) if the hardware / game engine is powerful enough and you own a suitable display, which already appears to be the case with Lair. What I think Factor 5 meant here was that if you come closer to objects you won't notice blocky textures. To give a simple example in Doom enemies further away may look less blocky than when you're standing next to them.

@MikeB

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Of course when objects are further away, they would normally be displayed with fewer pixels,

And by far fewer polygons, in fact, that's how LOD works, simplifying meshes that are further back, as the difference will not be spotted.

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but the sight will be clearer as compared to 720p games, So IMO in a game like this 1080p clearly offers a clear advantage (more pixels)

That is indeed the real advantage of a higher resolution.

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if the hardware / game engine is powerful enough and you own a suitable display, which already appears to be the case with Lair.

Well, yes and no, Lair doesn't look *that* amazing. It would be too premature to say that this is because of the hardware, it most definitely is not, it's because people do not know how to fully utilise the hardware yet. For now, the resolution is not the real show stopper, knowledge is. The difference I am talking about in my resolution argument will kick in when the hardware is driven to the hell and back.

And yes, that also applies to the 360. Neither console is driven that hard yet.

Quote:

What I think Factor 5 meant here was that if you come closer to objects you won't notice blocky textures. To give a simple example in Doom enemies further away may look less blocky than when you're standing next to them.

That's ancient history, even Shogo has LOD and that's more than 10 years old.

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@AMiGR

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was talking about *ANY* GPU of *ANY* generation

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he development studios could use 720p and use the extra cycles that would otherwise be used to draw at a higher resolution to draw more polygons, more effects and everything at a higher quality.

You can have more details and effects at a higher resolution and draw more complex polygons, like I said in one of my first messages with you on 1080p. I agreed this is more demanding at 1080p than at a lower resolution like 480p or 240p. 'Progressive Mesh is a technique rendered by the Cell microprocessor, which allows for an intensive amount of detail to be placed upon vast number of objects' [from different viewpoints], both up-close and far away.'

Quote:

Ehm, sorry to point it out to you, but this is FAR less complex than the 3D Mark '06 Canyon Flight Demo:

No, not per se. Lair has a lot more going on at once. You cannot compare such a (graphical) demo with Lair.

Quote:

Ok: Graphically, there is absolutely nothing in this game that cannot be done on any modern GPU, be that the RSX, the Xenos, and any recent (G70 or equivalent or better) PC one.

Could you clarify what you mean by this exactly? Sure a PC can display the screenshots in 1080p and beyond... But with regard to the game engine, the Cell excells at many things compared to home PC setups.

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Apr-2007 at 10:55 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 14-Apr-2007 at 09:37 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

You can have more details and effects at a higher resolution and draw more complex polygons, like I said in one of my first messages with you on 1080p.

Polygons are polygons, you cannot draw "more complex polygons" at a higher resolution, you will hit the limits of your hardware long before you hit the resolution limit if you're planning on drawing all details as polygons, what you do *on* the polygons is what matters, the shading and texture mapping techniques add most of the details to the objects, the actual polygon mesh is usually rather simple with the details of the original one saved in normal maps and the like. So, my point is that you *will* do approximations anyway, so if you are able to do *better* approximations at a lower but still high resolution, it's the way forward. 480p is a low resolution, neither 720p nor 1080p is even remotely low, graphically.

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Progressive Mesh is a technique rendered by the Cell microprocessor, which allows for an intensive amount of detail to be placed upon vast number of objects, both up-close and far away.

From here:
Quote:

Progressive Mesh is a technique rendered by the Cell microprocessor, which allows for an intensive amount of detail to be placed upon vast number of objects, both up-close and far away.

Please state your sources when copying and pasting, so that others can follow up on your research, not doing so is called plagiarism.

That's rather vague, progressive mesh is a LOD technique not just used by the Cell. It by definition means that objects far away are *less* detailed than objects close up. Hugues Hoppe has researched this, you can find his paper and other stuff here. I need to read up on this, I will not pretend to understand this just like that.

Quote:

No, not per se. Lair has a lot more going on at once. You cannot compare such a (graphical) demo with Lair.

3D Mark is not a pure graphical demo, all tests in it are complete game engines. However, it lacks the "third eye", user control, which DOES mean that its performance can be better than an equivalent game, since it's predictable. Take a look at the human models in the city. They are full models, LOD simplified down on the fly. They all move and everything and are all visible.

Quote:

Could you clarify what you mean by this exactly? Sure a PC can display the screenshots in 1080p and beyond... But with regard to the game engine, the Cell excells at many things compared to home PC setups.

Modern PC gaming setups now have dual core processors with multiple powerful vector processing units and GPUs that are more powerful than the ones use in either of the consoles. There is a push towards hardware physics units, like the Ageia PhysX (sp?), but NVidia and ATi argue that today's GPUs can handle physics processing loads fine, as can be seen with Middlewares like Havoc FX (which runs on the GPU). Keep in mind that computing technology evolves *very* quickly, so even if the PS3 is currently better than PCs for games (which I do not agree with), it won't be in a year.

Edit: Something I forgot to mention: Of course, the PS3 and 360 both have the advantage of being set hardware, meaning that people can optimise for them and not care about people with lower specced systems.
On the other hand, with all gaming studios now on the HD gaming bandwagon, games development won't be targeted at extremely low end consoles anymore, so that's one limit gone.
Moreover, while you could say that the lowest common denominator in terms of hardware is currently weaker than the PS3, in two or three years time, the lowest common denominator will be a four-core processor with an immensely powerful GPU and other supporting hardware, so targeting low won't be a problem either.

Last edited by AMiGR on 14-Apr-2007 at 10:22 PM.

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@AMiGR

Please don't try to divert the discussion yet again. BTW, you misquoted me deleting the "from different viewpoints". More likely you quoted Wikipedia twice, instead of me and Wikipedia.

Quote:

3D Mark is not a pure graphical demo, all tests in it are complete game engines. However, it lacks the "third eye", user control, which DOES mean that its performance can be better than an equivalent game, since it's predictable. Take a look at the human models in the city. They are full models, LOD simplified down on the fly. They all move and everything and are all visible.

Do you see dragons and soldiers battling in that demo?

Quote:

Modern PC gaming setups now have dual core processors with multiple powerful vector processing units and GPUs that are more powerful than the ones use in either of the consoles. There is a push towards hardware physics units, like the Ageia PhysX (sp?), but NVidia and ATi argue that today's GPUs can handle physics processing loads fine, as can be seen with Middlewares like Havoc FX (which runs on the GPU). Keep in mind that computing technology evolves *very* quickly, so even if the PS3 is currently better than PCs for games (which I do not agree with), it won't be in a year.

What I am saying is that the PS3 or more spefically the Cell has strongpoints compared to common highend specced home PCs, that's not to say highend PCs don't have other strongpoints as well. It's not black and white like this.

Last edited by MikeB on 14-Apr-2007 at 11:07 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 14-Apr-2007 at 11:05 PM.

@MikeB

Apologies: What happened was the following:

The different viewpoints part was in brackets. When replying, any special characters are quoted as they are, so the editor got rid of that part as a command.

For example:

<Hello World!>

Last edited by AMiGR on 14-Apr-2007 at 11:18 PM.
Last edited by AMiGR on 14-Apr-2007 at 11:17 PM.
Last edited by AMiGR on 14-Apr-2007 at 11:16 PM.
Last edited by AMiGR on 14-Apr-2007 at 11:13 PM.

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