@MikeB

Quote:

They break easily, but very few people have them for a very short time. But I have read enough and seen enough to know they are also prone to overheating like I said, I did not state any figures as that's impossible considering the short time on the market.

Clearly a batch of Xbox 360 Elites were faulty. Many reports about dead on arrival ring of deaths. Also reports of DVD drive failures. These we agree on, no need to argue them and no need to post any more pictures of the ring on Elites. We know this. It does not answer my question.

You keep saying these things break easily and it seems you are suggesting they are prone to the same kind of overheating issues that the rest are - but are you sure? Where are the reports of people killing their Xbox 360 Elites due to overheating? I didn't find any with Google. I'm sure there are some, but please lets see them so we can assess this issue in more detail. There can very well be such reports, I just didn't find them - so anyone who does find them, please post links.

It is also possible, considering what Micromart said - the company you are all too eager to quote when they were pulling out of fixing Xbox 360's - the issue was to an extent limited to machines built before late last year and related to solder. What changed after October last year? If something significant did change (and Elite added the glue), we can't *for sure* say things are like before.

We need more information. I know your agenda, but I'd like to see the information for myself before judging the Elite as a certain soon-to-be-dead like many other Xbox 360's seem to be. I actually thought first that, yes, Elite's are just as prone, but when I started looking I couldn't find any reports actually saying Elite's died because of over-heating.

@MikeB

Quote:

What unfortunate events? PM, instead of posting crap like this in public. At the very least post some proof together with your false allegations...

To those who see the past of this forum and yourself as I do, the joke was obvious and it was funny based on our assessment and opinion of the past. I am sure you know what it refers to, and I can see you do not agree. Fine, let us leave it at that. If we have time, maybe we can PM about it later for some mutual agreement.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Where are the reports of people killing their Xbox 360 Elites due to overheating?

For example at NeoGAF. And yes, most problems are still regarding overheating. Heatgun and towel tricks work just as well or bad as they did with the other versions.

XBox 360 Elite users are hard to find, the other XBox 360 versions greatly outsold it even during the Elite's US launch period. To find them, start looking in hardcore gaming forums like on NeoGAF.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I think AMiGR wants structural changes to prevent motherboard warping. Microsoft seems to agree that is part of the problem because they used the glue solution in the Elite. I think that would be wise as a port of the total solution.

No doubt that's what AMiGR is thinking. The question is to what extent is the motherboard warping. Does it truly need a structural reinforcement from a heatsink? I think there's a reason it's called a heat sink and not a backplane reinforcer. Clamp that heatsink on too tightly and one will increase chances of cracking CPU/GPU and creating a problem of different sorts. If as you indicated in your post that the quality of the solder is the problem the best change would be to use better solder, seeming less expensive then a heatsink change and gets to the heart of the issue. Though as we've both indicated there is glue and a heatsink change already which at least in the case of the Elites isn't eliminating the problem but seemingly reports of overheating problems are much less frequent and DVD problems seem to be what's being reported on the Elites.

I agree PR should be better from Microsoft. They seemingly are taking the Sony PS2 problem route and deny/deny/deny. It was finally after an extensive feedback from the communities when Sony fessed up to some of the issues. Of course their solution then was to simply publish lists of games that didn't work on certain console revisions, I don't recall they ever recalled their DVD issues. I'd like to see Microsoft learn from Sony's mistake and do better for the community.

When/if a fix is available for Xboxen I'll be sure to send mine in. As for being an 11+Xbox guy that's luckily a statistical outlier and very very abnormal. Though again I still question what the guy's setup was and if he provided proper cooling per the manual. Hey but I know about being that statistical outlier our first Toyota a 2000 Avalon is a POS. Toyota's have the reliability reputation but I'll never try another Toyota this is the first car ever, not even my 1977 Pinto, had a complete engine rebuild at 70K, luckily it was covered. For comparison our 1997 Ford F250 with more miles has never needed it's engine rebuilt or costed me what this POS Avalon has.

@MikeB

Quote:

For example at NeoGAF. And yes, most problems are still regarding overheating. Heatgun and towel tricks work just as well or bad as they did with the other versions.

I took some time looking, I am yet to find any report of Elite dying of overheating. I will try to look more. I did find your postings posting the same concerns though , at least once the very same message as in this thread. Keep up the good work!

You have any links handy?

Edit: I especially liked this question of yours Mike about the guy with 11 broken Xboxes on NeoGAF:

Quote:

I can't imagine why he's still a Microsoft / XBox fan though...

I know it was rhetorical, but you got to wonder, huh... Why DO people like the box so much that they're willing to go through this? To each their own, but what I think from personal experience and what I've read too is great games, great Live, great controllers etc. There are reasons people put up with this, you just never have agreed with them after, what, how many threads here... Some people just think Xbox 360 is great.

However, NOBODY will put up with this forever and things like this are chances for the competition. Microsoft needs to wise up if they are to live through this. (I certainly wouldn't go through 11 boxes, but I'd go through some trouble to sort it out because I do like the platform a lot.) The natural heat, more power-hungry games and aging consoles will truly test Microsoft this summer. I would hope they come out of it allright with this sorted out for the good of the consumer, but I'll be here with you shouting from the rooftops if they don't.

Last edited by jtsiren on 01-Jul-2007 at 07:55 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

jtsiren wrote: @MikeB Edit: I especially liked this question of yours Mike about the guy with 11 broken Xboxes on NeoGAF: Quote: I can't imagine why he's still a Microsoft / XBox fan though... I know it was rhetorical, but you got to wonder, huh... Why DO people like the box so much that they're willing to go through this?

I really don't want to drag the discussion OT with something Amiga-related, but the behavioural pattern seems to be very comparable to what this guy is going through.

@hatschi

Quote:

I really don't want to drag the discussion OT with something Amiga-related, but the behavioural pattern seems to be very comparable to what this guy is going through.

Well, there's dedication for you.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I took some time looking, I am yet to find any report of Elite dying of overheating.

For instance look in the huge my XBox 360 died thread at NeoGAF I linked to before. Of course you will have to page through many pages, as the XBox 360 core and premiun greatly outnumber the amount of Elite users and people had their consoles longer.

Xbox 360 Elite Prone to Same Problems as Others

"We’ve had numerous reports coming in of users getting 3 red lights on their brand new Elite consoles this morning. While this is a daily occurrence with 360 Premium and Core systems, we thought Microsoft would have had a better handle on the situation with the Elite."

@MikeB

Quote:

Xbox 360 Elite Prone to Same Problems as Others "We’ve had numerous reports coming in of users getting 3 red lights on their brand new Elite consoles this morning. While this is a daily occurrence with 360 Premium and Core systems, we thought Microsoft would have had a better handle on the situation with the Elite."

I already linked to that story in my long posting yesterday. That doesn't tell us anything other than that Elite's have been shipping dead on arrival, that is not the same as Cores and Premiums breaking after days, weeks or months of use due to GPU heating/structural failure.

We know there were issues with DOA machines as well as DVD drive issues on arrival. I am yet to see any report of people overheating their Elite's to dead other than you saying that you have seen such instances - the only thing I've seen is one person saying their Elite gets very hot, but he was just being cautious about, it wasn't broken.

I am just wondering if the possible changes in soldering process as well as the confirmed glue there have helped in fighting the overheating related damage. I am still looking for, waiting for links to reports that Elite's have died like other machines due to overheating. Don't worry, if the reports are out there one of us is bound to stumble on to them any day now.

@jtsiren

OK some quotes from NeoGAF, please if you need more look for them yourself, digging through my 'XBox 360 is dead' threads is an enormous undertaking especially when so many people are posting about core or premium systems:

The quote that came with the picture linked to earlier:

- "I've only had it for 5 weeks now. :( I only play it for 2-3 hours per day and I always turn it off when not in use. It red-ringed while I was playing 3rd Strike for about 10 minutes (I haven't turned it at all yesterday)."

http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/20339/2002982552409414214_rs.jpg

This picture was from another NeoGAF user:

- "Like this thread has been saying. POS!"

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3240/dsc00016yj6py2.jpg


- "I want to take my 360 Elite back to Futureshop, but 3rd Strike is still inside the machine. Does anyone know how to eject the disc tray while in red ring mode? :p"


- "My launch ELITE died today. ****! ****! ****!
I got it at Costco so I do not have to pay anything for a replacement, but still, this is ####!.

So far I have had a launch premium die on me, and a launch ELITE do the same."


- "My friends Elite also died on day one so I would say there no better also."



- "My second elite is dead. I have an in-store warranty, but they won’t have any elites in for 3 to 4 more weeks. Should I just send it in?

When is this all going to end? I just want to play some damn games."

If you don't believe them then at least believe Microsoft's daughter company:

Microsoft National Broadcast Channel (MSNBC, 25 May 2007)

Quote:
All of the problems that have plagued the Xbox 360 since its first iteration are still an issue with the Elite. The console still has the occasional overheating incident – and the noisy fan that attempts to cool things off. And the Elite version of the Xbox 360 still has that godawful, mammoth power supply that's more than a third the size of the console itself.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18854247/

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jul-2007 at 10:30 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jul-2007 at 10:28 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

All of the problems that have plagued the Xbox 360 since its first iteration are still an issue with the Elite.

I read that article back then. I don't see how it at the time could have possibly made any real conclusions about the effectiveness of the structural changes - most it says is that the major components (like the power supply) have remained the same. I acknowledge this - I just want to point out that quotes like that are not what I'm looking for, unless of course they are based on experience from the field that machines (Elite) have failed. Assumptions do not answer to the question of how prone to this ONE TYPE (the bad one) of failure the Elite is.

Now, the rest of the quotes you provide are helpful. Thank you for that. I appreciate it is a mammoth task, I was just surprised how difficult it is to find reports on this, actually still do. It would be nice to read from people familiar with the Xbox 360 anatomy and perhaps fixes that have these cases of breakdown for Elite really been over-heating/structural related (like GPU bending out from the mainboard) or not... That is certainly still an open question, it seems still like only an assumption that this is the case and the glue isn't working. (It isn't hard to believe it wouldn't work, so it is very possible it doesn't work, but I am trying to separate assumption from fact.)

Anyone seen links to console tech sites exploring the Elite's longetivity? (No need to link to DOA's or disk-drive woes, the ring of death after a time of use is the symptom I'm looking for. Not that those others wouldn't matter, but I consider the overheating related death the major one.) Out of the quotes you provide one seems to fall into this category, it would be interesting to see what the error code was - is it the GPU problem or not. Others MAY fall into the category, but without further information it is hard to tell.

No doubt the Elite batches have in any case gone through unfortunate amounts of quality assurance issues EVEN if, by a remote chance, the overheating related deaths had been solved. That is certainly a major issue itself, but most damning for the Xbox 360 is this issue of overheating killing machines over time and thus my personal interest in that.

You said tower and clamp fixes work for Elite? Have you seen reports of this, remember where? Anyone else? It would be interesting to read what these people have to say about the glue that is there, has it made any or no difference - did it hinder the fix by making it harder, did they remove the glue? These are valid questions I think because the Elite is different from other Xbox 360's in this area because of at least that presence of glue around the GPU and CPU.

Also, any reports of people breaking (overheating/ring of death) an Xbox 360 with the new heatsink?

Last edited by jtsiren on 02-Jul-2007 at 12:36 AM.

@jtsiren

You already have serveral links to check. Upon reading various Xbox360 fan sights and several with the polls that MikeB has regurgitated it appears the Elite overheating issues are much less reported. Again there are some DVD issues still and some red circle out of the box. Those might be overheating but I think it very dubious that someone would power on a console w/o game and immediately get overheating. Overheating is generally a problem over time. The problem is the red circles don't tell the exact problem just that there is a problem. As for Elite heat it would appear that the heat hasn't changed much on the Elite as output temps are nearly the same. The Elite was slightly cooler, like a degree or 2, but nothing that one would use to definitely state that there was any significant difference.

EDIT: MikeB had included some quotes from MSNBC about the noisy Elite Fan. All of the 360s I've seen make more noise from the DVD drive then from the fan. The Elite has a noticeably quieter DVD drive then my launch 360. One of my friends has a launch 360 which is terribly noisy. Not sure why but mine's quieter then his and the Elite is quieter then both. The fan on the 360 is variable and I've heard it go full out but rarely does my 360 ever hit that. Playback on HD DVD movies is relatively quiet as the fans rarely run and the HD DVD player's unit is quiet. I wish my PS3 were the same about 1/2 way through a Blu-Ray movie I always get what I've named turbojet mode - fans run full speed. The PS3 is nearly always quieter then my 360 but my PS3 has a loud mode.

Last edited by BrianK on 02-Jul-2007 at 01:42 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

The Elite was slightly cooler, like a degree or 2, but nothing that one would use to definitely state that there was any significant difference.

I think we can probably guess the Elite doesn't run significantly cooler. The big question IMHO isn't does it heat as much, but does it break over time due to heat like to older Premium/Core do.

@BrianK

Quote:

Upon reading various Xbox360 fan sights and several with the polls that MikeB has regurgitated it appears the Elite overheating issues are much less reported.

Meaning what?

1) More than 97% of the existing XBox 360 userbase own a core or premium.
2) The Elite has been on the market for a very short period of time compared to the other systems (XBox 360 Core / Premium, Wii and PS3).
3) 1+2
or,
4) The Elite is a much more sturdy product.
5) 1+2+4

I would opt for option 3 as actually being the case here and IMO there's little proof option 4 may actually be correct. At least the Dead on Arrival stories and people having already broke more than one unit does not provide much confidence in the XBox 360 Elite as being ignificantly better designed and a significantly more sturdy product. If you agree option 3 is likely to be the case as I do, then you may also agree 99.9 of the my XBox 360 stories told on the internet must be related to the core and premium version.

Though here more user quotes:

"I just recently received an Xbox 360 Elite for my birthday and within 4 days the system is already having problems. I was in the middle of a game of Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion when the screen froze. After I performed a system shutdown I tried turning it back on and now I only get a red light in the lower right quandrant and the system won’t even boot up. I definitely should have asked for a PS3 but I was waiting for Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey. This @#$% sucks."

"I bought that new XBOX 360 Elite and I think its a load of $%@#. I maybe played it the first night for maybe 20 minutes. Turned it off then it never turned back on. Call the support team or whatever and they tell me that I HAVE to go buy a new power supply. Remember this thing not even 24 hours out of the box and I have to go buy a new power supply. I should have just paid the extra $ for the playstation 3. If I could give it a lower score than a 1 I would."

"My elite has given me the red ring of death after being out of the box 24 hours...........yep."

"My 360 elite dies after only 3 weeks"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nOkPsyoYMrI

"Elite has same problem with rings of death as 360 Premium *** E 74 Error Message***"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8Uag0sxFkFw

" My Xbox 360 Elites disk tray is ####ed up and won't play games. I recorded this before I sent it back to Microsoft."
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oCvUY1GFXPE

@MikeB

Quote:

Meaning what?

Exactly that's what we were looking to get to. My statements were not that the Elite isn't having problems but to what extent one can match those problems to overheating issues.

Per your quotes show issues that are not overheating: 1 flashing red light indicates BIOS issues, not overheating of the GPU/CPU. Need of new power supply is not GPU/CPU overheating. Disk tray broken is obviously not GPU/CPU over heating.

Per your quotes show issues but difficult to tell if they might be directly overheating related: Red ring out of the box might be overheating hard to tell.

So thanks for backing my points with some antidotal evidence. The thing one would need to do is figure out what % of Elites have overheating problems, what % of non-Elites have overheating problems then compare these % to see if Micrsoft's fixes improved or worsened the product with respect to overheating.


@Thread
Industry standard is 3-5% breakage. Everyone knows Microsoft has blown that.

Daily Tech Article comments on how their research indicates 1/3 of all 360s have issues. Also in our thread here there was a question to why people still buy the 360. This article expounds a bit on that too. Quote:

(of the 7th generation of games) the Xbox 360 still has the most consoles sold worldwide and the longest list of games and exclusives. For a gamer looking for online-enabled high-definition gaming today, the Xbox 360 appears to satisfy those needs

I'd recommend an extended warranty to all those who wish lessen their exposure to permanent 360 loss.

@MikeB

There is a quite important difference between the two boards, one you may not have noticed. The Switch-Mode Power Supplies on the new board are smaller, fewer switching transistors, fewer capacitors and smaller inductors. This would indicate a smaller power dissipation in something but I dunno what and to what extend it helps (depends on the difference in dissipation).

_________________

@BrianK

Quote:

The question is to what extent is the motherboard warping. Does it truly need a structural reinforcement from a heatsink?

Such reinforcement would not raise the price of the console, most modern PC heatsinks include such reinforcing for instance, a metal backplate behind the CPU. The thing is, will they do it or will they just wait for a cooler part? And if they do the latter, how are they going to deal with the increasing number of dead systems? I guess that a backplate would be a far cheaper method to fix existing systems that are still repairable than anything else.

_________________

@BrianK

Good article, thanks for sharing this information. So 33% failure rate at EB Games, but in what timeframe exactly? 6 months or 1 year? As the console has been available longer than that I think it's not strange we see higher figures in polls.

Quote:

We had 35 Xbox 360s at launch I know more than half of them broke within the first six months (red lights or making circles under the game discs). Two of them were dead on arrival.

So that's at least more than 57% failure rate in 6 months for launch units for them, so it would be interesting to know how many were still alive after just 1 year.

Needless to say that's an extra-oridnary figure! And I feel it was 100% right to address this in previous threads when comparing the XBox 360 with the PS3. The article seems to agree:

Quote:

One often overlooked factor when considering a console purchase is reliability, an area that is becoming apparent where the Xbox 360 falls short.

Quote:

Most other console systems have a failure rate of less than one percent, including the PlayStation 3

Last edited by MikeB on 02-Jul-2007 at 06:19 PM.

The Xbox 360 brings new console innovations to market...

Temp. Case Mod -- puts a color changing LED and digital temp read out on your 360. If the 360 is too hot it turns the 4 color LED to red and starts flashing so you know to turn it off.

@MikeB

Quote:

Needless to say that's an extra-oridnary figure! And I feel it was 100% right to address this in previous threads when comparing the XBox 360 with the PS3.

Do you really feel anyone is disagreeing with you on that?

I certainly am not.