@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Re: Kutaragi stepping down --- in days of ago seppuku may have been more appropriate.

LOL!

In more news:
http://www.thewiire.com/news/711/1/Nintendo_Buys_Out_Monolith_Software

This will ensure a couple of quality JRPG franchises on the Wii.
The Baten Katos series on the Gamecube is excellent. Now Sony's lost Xenosaga too...

Global 360 sales are slowing down:
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5374&Itemid=2

Nintendo increasing production of Wii's to 1.167 million a month, DS is being made at 2.5 million/month...
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=5374&Itemid=2

Last edited by Lou on 27-Apr-2007 at 01:10 PM.

@Lou

Super Paper Mario looks amazing, what other Mario titles are available/due for release soon on the Wii?

My boy loves the Mario series more than anyother games.

A Double Dash style game would be nice.

_________________
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@Lou

Quote:

Global 360 sales are slowing down:

Articles seems to conflict with itself. The title is Xbox business is still losing money. But then states the Zune off set gains by the Xbox. How can one off set a loss? Sorry but you can only add to a loss or off set a gain. I think likely they put the title together poorly it should be Entertainment business is still losing money. Microsoft has said it expects gains in 2008 for the Entertainment business and with the decrease in operating losses it appears they are on track.


@nicholas
Mario -- egads it's amazing how Nintendo can reimage the same gameplay 20 times and people will still buy it.

@nicholas

Quote:

nicholas wrote: @Lou Super Paper Mario looks amazing, what other Mario titles are available/due for release soon on the Wii? My boy loves the Mario series more than anyother games. A Double Dash style game would be nice.

SPM is funny as hell. The dialogue is awesome, the gameplay is old and new at the same time. A+ game.

It's just a matter of time before Mario Kart GP is announced, probably for an '08 release and online-enabled. Nintendo is staggering their releases. Super Mario Galaxy will be out for the holidays. Super Mario Strikers(Charged in the US) is coming out this summer. Mario Party 8 is out now or shortly.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: Global 360 sales are slowing down: Articles seems to conflict with itself. The title is Xbox business is still losing money. But then states the Zune off set gains by the Xbox. How can one off set a loss? Sorry but you can only add to a loss or off set a gain. I think likely they put the title together poorly it should be Entertainment business is still losing money. Microsoft has said it expects gains in 2008 for the Entertainment business and with the decrease in operating losses it appears they are on track. @nicholas Mario -- egads it's amazing how Nintendo can reimage the same gameplay 20 times and people will still buy it.

But sales of the hardware are slowing. They'd better hope that the Elite gives sales a kick in the pants. The ticking time-bomb RROD issue doesn't seem to want to go away even in the Elite from what I hear.

As for the same gameplay... If it ain't broke, don't fix it. That said, Super Paper Mario has more than a couple of new gameplay elements added to the fold and the dialog is the bomb. For once, their is a REAL story that unfolds as you play.

@Lou

Quote:

The ticking time-bomb RROD issue doesn't seem to want to go away even in the Elite from what I hear.

There has been some Elites released before launch but it appears that 90%+ are still waiting for the 4/29 launch. I think at this point with such a small sample set it's next to impossible to make a valid conclusion if Elites are more or less reliable.

@MikeB

New Fold@Home version for your PS3.
The updated Folding@Home client software features an improvement in folding calculation speeds, increased visibility of user location on the globe and the ability for users to create longer donor or team names.

Summary: The PS3 AAA KillerApp just got better.

@MikeB

Quote:

Other things which you can do nicely on the SPUs is to prepare tasks for the RSX, which normally you'd have to do with the CPU, because the GPU really can't do it at that moment. "

There's a middleware issue with the GPU.

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@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: Summary: The PS3 AAA KillerApp just got better.

Isn't it strange how "our" biggest philanthropist Billy Boy hasn't bought into this?

Or is it because it runs on multiple platforms that he doesn't want to support it?

@jiyong

Quote:

Isn't it strange how "our" biggest philanthropist Billy Boy hasn't bought into this? ... Or is it because it runs on multiple platforms that he doesn't want to support it?

Now you're assuming Microsoft doesn't want to support this. It is likely the case that Folding@Home was not approached by Microsoft. But was Microsoft approached by Folding@Home? So do we really know they don't want to support it? I don't see any info that the 2 organizations have communicated. Would Folding@Home want to port their code to XNA and the 360?

The Cell has more purposes then the Xenon. The Xenon, by design, was built for videogaming period. The Cell was built with videogaming in mind but it was also built for scientific calculating and large bandwidth applications, remember Sony showing 24 HDTV streaming. For example: IBM, recently said there will be Cell cards to add onto their mainframes. Hence, the computing needs for a college are much more likely to have Cells involved then Xenons. Again simply because the Xenon is 360 only and not developed with other purposes in mind. Having Folding@Home port to the PS3 is a good first applied problem for the collegiates to approach as it gives them experience programming the Cell, again they'll likely need to know how to program the Cell for other future programming purposes. Hence, I can see Folding@Home might see the 360 as less desireable or unnecessary from the standpoint that they likely won't have to know Xenon nor XNA and having that knowledge won't extend into other programming needs for scientific purposes.

Also from Microsoft's POV I can see why Folding@Home may not be desireable for them. The Cell is developed with high FPU calculations in mind the Xenon not so much. By working with Folding@Home you now create a comparable benchmark between the PS3 and the 360. Joe User now thinks Folding@Home performance will somehow give an indication of which is a better gaming console and the #s mean squat in relation to gaming.

We know MIcrosoft has done nothing on the Windows desktop to discourage Folding@Home, remember it was there long before the move to the PS3 so I'm more then a bit dubious on your statement that Microsoft doesn't want to support it as their major platform already is.

Last edited by BrianK on 30-Apr-2007 at 03:00 PM.

@BrianK

The XCPU may have been designed for games but it is still fundamentally a general purpose processor, I doubt it'll get figures like Cell but folding should still fly on it as well.

_________________
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@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: Now you're assuming Microsoft doesn't want to support this. It is likely the case that Folding@Home was not approached by Microsoft. But was Microsoft approached by Folding@Home? So do we really know they don't want to support it? I don't see any info that the 2 organizations have communicated. Would Folding@Home want to port their code to XNA and the 360?

Is it really important if the Folding project contacted M$?
Don't turn the tables.

Why would you want to port to XNA? As far as I understand, you don't get access to the full potential of the 360. For instance, you only get 4 hardware threads, as 2 are reserved.
I don't know what else has been restricted, but it looks like M$ are protecting the people that bought the real dev-kit. Very logical though...

If this info is outdated, please let me know: XNA blog

Quote:

The Cell has more purposes then the Xenon. The Xenon, by design, was built for videogaming period. The Cell was built with videogaming in mind but it was also built for scientific calculating and large bandwidth applications, remember Sony showing 24 HDTV streaming. For example: IBM, recently said there will be Cell cards to add onto their mainframes. Hence, the computing needs for a college are much more likely to have Cells involved then Xenons. Again simply because the Xenon is 360 only and not developed with other purposes in mind. Having Folding@Home port to the PS3 is a good first applied problem for the collegiates to approach as it gives them experience programming the Cell, again they'll likely need to know how to program the Cell for other future programming purposes. Hence, I can see Folding@Home might see the 360 as less desireable or unnecessary from the standpoint that they likely won't have to know Xenon nor XNA and having that knowledge won't extend into other programming needs for scientific purposes.

From what I understand the Xenon wasn't built from the ground up. In my negative POV, they slammed three existing cores together and added some small fancy stuff to it.

In my opinion you see that the SPE's are more powerful than VMX-128.
Let's face it, it wasn't the Power core that attracted the scientists to the CELL, it was because of the SPE's.

From the experiences of a friend of mine, it's not such a big deal to learn something new when you are at an university. The new languages my friend had to learn when he was studying AI was not exactly an exception.

Quote:

Also from Microsoft's POV I can see why Folding@Home may not be desireable for them. The Cell is developed with high FPU calculations in mind the Xenon not so much. By working with Folding@Home you now create a comparable benchmark between the PS3 and the 360. Joe User now thinks Folding@Home performance will somehow give an indication of which is a better gaming console and the #s mean squat in relation to gaming.

Why not write a GPU client? It should blow the numbers of the CELL right out of the water.

Why wouldn't there be a relationship between Folding benchmarks and gaming performance?

Quote:

We know MIcrosoft has done nothing on the Windows desktop to discourage Folding@Home, remember it was there long before the move to the PS3 so I'm more then a bit dubious on your statement that Microsoft doesn't want to support it as their major platform already is.

Oh come on, you're not serious here right? As if you are implying that Folding should thank Billy Boy on their bare knees he hasn't blocked them?

As if M$ has the power to stop programs working under Windows? I wish they had done that with all the virii and trojans out there.

Windows isn't supporting Folding, it simply is a host, just as a public road is a host for a car.
Now you are giving way too much credit to Windows. Otherwise you could say Windows is also supporting virii and trojans.

@jiyong

Quote:

Is it really important if the Folding project contacted M$? Don't turn the tables.

Yes it is. Why? Because Sony and Microsoft both approve uses of their console. So while you want to blame the lack of Folding all on Microsoft the question is more then fairly asked if these 2 companies communicated. No tables were turned as you wish to claim. Instead I simply realized there are 2 parties here and either can initiate a conversation. My question was simply did either of them try to talk with each other? If not then it's wrong to blame 1 entity for everything.

Quote:

From what I understand the Xenon wasn't built from the ground up...they slammed three existing cores together and added some small fancy stuff to it.

Nope it wasn't and the Xenon would do Folding quite well. There is a MacOSX - PPC client if someone knew the processing rate one could extrapolate to likely performance of the Xenon, of course assuming the 360 client was threaded such as it could use the 3 cores and GPU most effectively.

As for your 3 exiting core statement I think the process was quite a bit more well thought out then slapping cores together. In some ways it might be better thought out for example they didn't have to disable part of the processor to ensure good yields.

Quote:

In my opinion you see that the SPE's are more powerful than VMX-128.

For the needs of Folding@Home I believe the SPEs would be more effective then the VMX-128. Which again is why I said Folding might be a bit problematic from the Microsoft marketing department as people will undoubtably use the performance of Folding@Home to say the PS3 is superior yet that test has very little to do with how a game performs on either machine.

Quote:

Let's face it, it wasn't the Power core that attracted the scientists to the CELL, it was because of the SPE's.

Not sure what we're facing but I think we agree the SPEs was a new type of thingie to use making it an interesting project. Also, the interest would be IBM's use of the Cell in mainframes and blade servers making it likely an educational institution would have more Cells to play with in the future for scientific calculations.

Quote:

Why not write a GPU client? It should blow the numbers of the CELL right out of the water.

Okay go for it!

Quote:

Why wouldn't there be a relationship between Folding benchmarks and gaming performance?

Think about the needs and complexity of a game versus the single purpose of Folding and how it'd be, at best, a small subset of what a games needs would be. For example no collision detection is needed so an SPE that might be reserved for collision dection can now be used for Folding. For example no AI is needed so those SPEs can now be used for Folding. Also the maths for collision detection and AI are different formulas. So comparing Folding #'s will have a very small relationship to game performance.

Quote:

Oh come on, you're not serious here right? As if you are implying that Folding should thank Billy Boy on their bare knees he hasn't blocked them?

Look your statement was that Microsoft didn't want Folding@Home on their systems and we know that at least in cases outside the 360 Folding@Home runs. You seem to be laying blame on Microsoft for preventing Folding@Home on the 360 when you don't even know if these 2 entities even communicated.

Quote:

Now you are giving way too much credit to Windows.

Nope actually I'm not, you're just reading in more meaning then there actually is.

Nothing much new to report or comment, but a quick gaming note: the PS3 free game Super Rub'a'Dub is quite fun. In this game the motion sensing of the Sixaxis is used in a way that feels natural and not contrived. Just a fun little game that has limited lasting appeal but still.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @jiyong Quote: Is it really important if the Folding project contacted M$? Don't turn the tables. Yes it is. Why? Because Sony and Microsoft both approve uses of their console. So while you want to blame the lack of Folding all on Microsoft the question is more then fairly asked if these 2 companies communicated. No tables were turned as you wish to claim.

I said: Quote:

Isn't it strange how "our" biggest philanthropist Billy Boy hasn't bought into this?

I don't care if M$ has considered it or not, as that isn't something we can check. Result so far is that it is running on PS3 (and currently responsible for the majority of the calculations) and it isn't on the 360. Clean and simple.

I was thinking when they are so desperately trying to upgrade the 360 to look like the PS3 (1080p and HDMI), they might as well port the "AAA killer application" Folding.

Billy Boy says he is so concerned with the world, why not port Folding to the 360?

See my point?

Quote:

Quote: From what I understand the Xenon wasn't built from the ground up...they slammed three existing cores together and added some small fancy stuff to it. Nope it wasn't and the Xenon would do Folding quite well. There is a MacOSX - PPC client if someone knew the processing rate one could extrapolate to likely performance of the Xenon, of course assuming the 360 client was threaded such as it could use the 3 cores and GPU most effectively. As for your 3 exiting core statement I think the process was quite a bit more well thought out then slapping cores together. In some ways it might be better thought out for example they didn't have to disable part of the processor to ensure good yields.

I don't see anything in your text that proves me wrong. And what would you consider "doing Folding quite well"? That's quite vague.

The yields have nothing to do with the design for performance. From the excerpts from the book on the 360 (The XBOX 360 Uncloaked), I get the impression the Xenon was a rush job. Not exactly the ideal circumstances for a design from the ground up (if they did that at all). Especially when you consider Billy Boy was pushing Intel.

Quote:

Quote: Why not write a GPU client? It should blow the numbers of the CELL right out of the water. Okay go for it!

Hahahaha, you are asking a Sony fanboy? I would make sure it would crawl like a snail and post the benchmark all over the internet.

Quote:

Quote: Why wouldn't there be a relationship between Folding benchmarks and gaming performance? Think about the needs and complexity of a game versus the single purpose of Folding and how it'd be, at best, a small subset of what a games needs would be. For example no collision detection is needed so an SPE that might be reserved for collision dection can now be used for Folding. For example no AI is needed so those SPEs can now be used for Folding. Also the maths for collision detection and AI are different formulas. So comparing Folding #'s will have a very small relationship to game performance.

Why are you so sure the calculations in Folding are so fundamentally different than the calculations in a game? Why would the folding process look so much different than collision detection or AI? Have you seen the calculations? I have to admit I didn't either.

I'm not saying it is, just asking "why not?".

And judging from this excerpt from the FAQ, the calculations might be similar to collision detection and AI:

Quote:

WHY DO PROTEINS "FOLD"? However, only knowing this sequence tells us little about what the protein does and how it does it. In order to carry out their function (eg as enzymes or antibodies), they must take on a particular shape, also known as a "fold." Thus, proteins are truly amazing machines: before they do their work, they assemble themselves! This self-assembly is called "folding."

Quote:

Quote: Oh come on, you're not serious here right? As if you are implying that Folding should thank Billy Boy on their bare knees he hasn't blocked them? Look your statement was that Microsoft didn't want Folding@Home on their systems and we know that at least in cases outside the 360 Folding@Home runs. You seem to be laying blame on Microsoft for preventing Folding@Home on the 360 when you don't even know if these 2 entities even communicated.

See my point above.

And don't misquote me! I never claimed M$ didn't want it on the 360 or on Windows. All I did was wonder why it hasn't happened yet on the 360 and I added some oil to the fire by asking if it would be because it was multi-platform.

Quote:

Quote: Now you are giving way too much credit to Windows. Nope actually I'm not, you're just reading in more meaning then there actually is.

I don't see how you can actually claim this? So we can give credit to Windows for the virii and trojans too?

Let me put it in another way, passively "supporting" it has no meaning (see virii and trojans). I never saw M$ actively supporting Folding.

@jiyong

Quote:

Billy Boy says he is so concerned with the world, why not port Folding to the 360?

In all fairness, I don't think you can say someone isn't doing charity, or not doing it from their heart, if they don't participate in all and every kind of charitable activity. Everyone doing charity, even rich people, have to choose where to participate - often people get better results this way too since they can focus and participate in more than just monetary ways (you only have so much time and resources).

F@H may well have PR reasons behind it just like BrianK speculated, who knows, but just because it hasn't been ported to Xbox 360 doesn't mean Bill Gates hasn't done a lot of valuable charity or that he wouldn't be "concerned with the world".

Let's not get carried away...

@jiyong

Quote:

I don't care if M$ has considered it or not, as that isn't something we can check. Result so far is that it is running on PS3 (and currently responsible for the majority of the calculations) and it isn't on the 360. Clean and simple.

Fair enough. Though it now sounds as if your previous question of doesn't want to support it now isn't important to you. Looks like you were just trying to attempt to make a cheap shot at Microsoft. Fine if you are just be open about it.

Quote:

Billy Boy says he is so concerned with the world, why not port Folding to the 360?..See my point?

No I don't seem your point it seems to be one of these 3. Is it a philanthropist is only good if they contribute to all causes. Or only good if they only do Folding. Or only good if they only do the causes you want which is Folding. Certainly jtsiren has a good point on your take on this.

Quote:

Why are you so sure the calculations in Folding are so fundamentally different than the calculations in a game?

Folding formulas at best would be a subset of the type of formulas used within a videogame.

Quote:

So we can give credit to Windows for the virii and trojans too?

Of course Microsoft doesn't support virus and trojans. For example months before the Code Red virus was released to the world Microsoft had patched their systems to disallow this. So if Microsoft really wants to not support something they can obviously work to prevent the use of that software on their platform. Microsoft never took any direct action to prevent F@H from working so don't seem to care if F@H works on their systems and other systems too. While as you claim Microsoft didn't actively support F@H I never made that claim - as you say don't misquote me. I never gave Microsoft credit for supporting that was simply your misread.

Last edited by BrianK on 02-May-2007 at 03:15 PM.

@BrianK

Yeah, he does like to spin words... I don't give a rat's behind about Folding at Home. I don't pretend to champion some cause for argument's sake, I just like raw game sales numbers:

anyway, to quote GamesIndustry.biz:
Quote:

360 installed base double that of Nintendo's machine as PS3 tops 36k The Xbox 360 may still have the largest installed base of all the next-gen consoles in Australia, but the Wii is catching up - with 80,000 consoles sold since December. The figure comes from News.com, which is also reporting that 160,000 Xbox 360 units have now been sold in the region. Microsoft's console has been on sale for just over a year, while the Wii launched five months ago. PlayStation 3 hit Australian shops on March 23, and since then 36,000 units have reportedly been sold. The Xbox 360 became Australia's fastest-selling console when it launched exactly a year earlier - but that record was later broken by the Wii, with 32,000 units shifted in four days. Sony failed to take the title with PlayStation 3, as the launch weekend figure stood at 20,000 consoles. However, according to data tracker GfK, the PS3 launch caused "a spike in retail spending not previously witnessed at the launch of any other console in Australia".

Hmmm... Despite ample stock, there was 1 PAL region where the PS3 did not beat launch numbers of the Wii and 360... Oh the horror!

@Lou

Yeah the PS3 will do fine. It simply won't own the large marketshare the PS2 does. I think MikeB loved to state the PS2 sells more then the 360 but he has neglected that the PS2 sells more then the PS3 also. In Japan it appears the PS2 sales are slipping and PS3 sales are slipping it appears for April the Wii beat the combined PS console sales by 3:1. At the time it seems the Wii will win.

@BrianK

"Slipping" is one word...

Quote:

Japanese hardware sales for April 16 - April 22: System - Weekly sales (Compared to last week) - 2007 sales - Lifetime sales 1. DSL - 172,359 (+39,034) - 2,345,774 - 9,795,658 2. WII - 77,913 (+2,154) - 1,248,330 - 2,167,973 3. PSP - 29,459 (+4,609) - 770,363 - 5,302,492 4. PS2 - 11,398 (-1,474) - 297,205 - 20,452,064 5. PS3 - 11,000 (-948) - 391,291 - 848,849 6. 360 - 2,307 (-593) - 87,183 - 351,885 7. GBASP - 860 (+206) - 15,551 - 5,934,501 8. GBM - 449 (-168) - 17,430 - 577,310 9. NGC - 266 (+99) - 6,202 - 4,175,670 10. NDS - 81 (-65) - 1,823 - 6,584,080 11. GBA - 55 (+29) - 578 - 8,823,784 Total sales: 306,147 (up 42,883 from last week) Last week's sales: 263,264

Source www.gamesarefun.com who's source is MediaCreate.