@-Sam-

Well I work on a helpdesk and we get very few Mac calls - and the ones we do get are because the product says its MacOS compatable - and the person who bought his has OS X - and not classic.

Bottom line is Mac's have become what I hope the Amiga to become (cos it aint done yet ). It kinda embodies what the Amiga had while taking it a step further. I hated classic Mac OS - but the modern mac has become a tight fusion of hardware and software, fully customisable, does exactly what you want - gives you power, while being very very forgiving.

Last edited by Bobsonsirjonny on 13-Jan-2005 at 12:49 PM.

@Trezzer

Quote:

And how do you fint the giant heatsink inside the nice, tiny case? ;)

I'd guess it would easily fit into a barebone/cube case. The size is not so much of an issue - give or take a few inches.

Quote:

Most people don't want to do that

Granted, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible, that is what the original statement tried to say. Sure, you either have to do it yourself, or have someone do it for you.

Quote:

They want something small, nice and tidy that just works

That is how it usually starts. For some it stays this way, but for some, their expectation rises. The Radeon 9200 in this thing will not satisfy a gamer's need, not even now, left alone in a few months. There is no option for that.

Letting alone the fact that, as usual, Apple overdid with their pricing in Germany, which I find, mildly put, ridiculous, seeing how weak the dollar is. They've always been like that.

Add to that Apple's upgrade policy - they are putting out much more updates than Microsoft and you need to pay for most of them. I really found that rather upsetting, because 10.1 had its deficiencies and 10.2 cost you extra

I'm not saying WindowsXP is something to write home about, but I'd prefer it to this very restricted Mac. (And before someone complains, yes, I would have preferred an AGP slot in the micro instead of the Radeon 7000 onboard).

Quote:

They just want something nice that works - and it seems they are willing to pay a fair bit for it as well.

Which goes to offer the question then, why a "cheap" Mac (not that I consider it cheap in Germany - see above. I'd feel like a milked cow if I where their customer)? You could then go for an iMac directly. But then the iMac case is almost as ugly as the MiniMac

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

@wegster
Quote:

But I really think KMOS/EyeTech/AInc somehow think they're going to make money out of hardware, which would be a shame because it could kill the OS longterm instead,

Well, the business plan is to build a platform.....not just give away the crown jewels....which is the OS and the Amiga name.
No, I think releasing OS4 for another machine would be a mistake. The Amiga is a computer, not just software....and it needs its own hardware. If it was, say, ported to Apple hardware, people would dual boot into it....but likely still use OSX for most of their computing needs as its the more dominant and well supported platform. That's just the facts of life. Also OS4 piracy would be rampant and people would give it little respect as it would seem an oddity like BEOS, for instance.

Having your own hardware assures that the AmigaOS is more than just a diversion for a user but a way of a user's computing life. Linux has the same problem with people dual booting into Windows. People give Linux a try(like me) and then boot back into Windows to do anything useful. People are familiar with Windows, and if something is really different, get frightened off and go back to what they know. This is the sort of thing that probably killed BEOS....the dual booting....and it ain't helping Linux's cause either. Why should a games developer, for instance, produce Linux based games, when the same hardware is capabable of running Windows. Why should a games developer produce AmigaOS based games, when the same hardware is capabable of running MacOS.

Also AOS on the same hardware as a dominant hardware/software platform combination is kinda selling out.... You would gain short term profit but lose in the long term as you would not be able to build box recognition. The Amiga is a solution....not just an OS....its the Zen of the whole system that counts....Its kinda why OSX should never go on x86...you kinda kill your lock in. Yeah.....the Amiga needs lock-in so you persevere with it....especially in these days when there is so little software support and you need to improvise a little....Why would you bother if you could just boot back into MacOS....Think about it. The hardcore fans will undoubtably persevere....but newbies....forget it.

What I am not opposed to...and would actually support....would be to somehow resell these Macs as Amigas and somehow dongle-ise them, so that ONLY THEY can run OS4. This ensures that the Amiga remains a hardware platform fullfilling of its legacy. Of course, ironically, there is nothing wrong if it dual boots to OSX or Linux....but when you've got that big fat Amiga logo on the box.....you'd feel kinda silly. I know its sounds odd...but at least ponder this.

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@Rogue

Quote:

That is how it usually starts. For some it stays this way, but for some, their expectation rises. The Radeon 9200 in this thing will not satisfy a gamer's need, not even now, left alone in a few months. There is no option for that.

Its not aimed at the gaming market....... Its a "MINI" Mac...Like only JUST a real fully fledged, red blooded, fair dinkum Mac... People are under no illusions as to its power...... It does the job....and that's all they expect.... If you want more "ya pays da moula".
People aren't going "Ewwww Ahhhh" at its power..and they are definitely not saying "I'm gonna use it to play cutting edge games"....just as they aren't about to on an A1.
Apple games...Apple games...........Apple games...Nope............I hear crickets.....
Apple games...Apple games... Nope...those two words don't seem to go together.

Apple have never pushed games on their system.....I think they find the world "games" abhorrent as the company feels it would cheapen a Mac to be known as a games machine. The games market there is kinda an afterthought IMHO.

Quote:

Add to that Apple's upgrade policy - they are putting out much more updates than Microsoft and you need to pay for most of them. I really found that rather upsetting, because 10.1 had its deficiencies and 10.2 cost you extra

Errrr....Gonna give us a free upgrade to AOS4,1 then?
(Whispers)Well, at least there's something released to update......(Poking fun)...
(Whistles a few steps....and runs hurriedly away......)

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@BigBentheAussie
RE: AOS4 on non EyeTech/A1 hardware.

Yeah, you make good points, and they're understandable. it's just a tenuous situation overall- AOS will not ever gain _significant_ (desktop) share when something like the mac mini exists and the A1 prices are such as they are, at least not without a huge cash infusion to 'buy' not just useful, but unique/great software for the platform...which is unlikely.

I like the idea of re-branding Mac minis, or the XBox 2, but I'm not sure it would happen- and it's ironic in a bad way that what might be good for the OS is 'bad' for the hardware...but that could be due to a defective business model. I know Eyetech can't 'give away' the hardware like MS did for XBox, because they don't have anything like MS, or Apple, does, to sell, once the hardware is purchased.

It would be interesting to see if EyeTech could purchase say, 2000 mac minis without the case, sell them at $750 each, and make more than they currently are with the uA1s....or if Apple would allow it.

It _might_ actually be a more feasible strategy however, to do 'an XBox 2 clone,' as MS seems to want to see that happen. They could charge a more 'premium' price still, as 'it's an Amiga'....yet possibly make some $ _and_ lower the cost of entry into AOS4.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Kinda like a Seat Azurra is the same as a Volkswagon Lupo - but with different body styling and a big difference in price?

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

What about the Phantom?

DOA, IMHO

Quote:

They don't have a compatability problem

Well, of course any unreleased product works prefectly!

Quote:

The XBox2 is said to be going PowerPC so they'll be incompatable, one would think to x86 PC software

Definitely a watch and see area. Incompatability isn't a given. There's ways to get around this. Microsoft VirtualPC for PPC is one such idea.. There are others...


Quote:

You won't be able to release an App for the Xbox2 PC without giving MS its cut.

Of course that was the idea for the Xbox, which failed. See various Apps for the Xbox that one can run w/o paying Microsoft for the app. Like, MAME or Linux, or the Amiga Emulator.. Xbox2 will be harder to crack.. But, never underestimate the power of human will and brute force.

@Desolator

Quote:

Am I the only one that thinks it's beautiful?

Probably, because it is ugly

@BigBentheAussie @ Wegster

No, I think there is no need to resell MiniMacs as Amigas, that would really be killing the Amiga market, why should someone buy Amigas if the companies behind it isn't even able to produce their own computer?

Then if doing it unable to boot into Mac would also be bad, atleast I see it as a strengh of the AOne that it can boot both into Mac and Linux instead of only OS4, atleast for the moment, back in the old days there was never any use of booting into something else but AOS, but today it can be a strengh.

But selling Mac hardware as Amiga hardware, it's atleast as funny as the Mac Toaster, and the IBM and M$ presentations using Amiga with Scala.

I don't think the MiniMac is a real treat to the Amiga, as it doesn't runs AOS, and if the price is the only intersting thing, then a Windows machine is still cheaper. But if this thing can take customers from the Windows market then it means more sales of PPC CPU's and that is most probably good for the Amiga too.

@wegster
Xbox2 cloning might actually be the ticket, if you want to rebrand HW.
Apple tried cloning and couldn't handle the competition. Even so, I can
run OS X on older, non-supported HW (*cough* Power Computing
PowerWave) via a neat little utility called XPostFacto. No, any port of
AOS to Apple HW would have to be done like Linux (i.e. no support
from Apple). That said, I don't entirely buy the argument that everyone
would run OS X with a dual boot system. If I've invested in some new,
cool Amiga app that just happens to run on the Mac-mini (under the
hypothetical Mac port of OS 4, of course), I'm going to use OS 4. I'm not
a HW wonk, but I'd imagine OS 4 would fly on even the most basic spec
Mac-mini. For me, it's still all about what apps I would like to run. If I
have a port of some game for AOS 4, I'm not going to run out & buy
the Mac OS version - if it exsist. The AOS game port angle for the
XBox2 rebranding scenario becomes somewhat more tenuous, IMO.
Only original games for AOS 4 stand a chance in the NG console
environment. AOS 4 productivity apps should fare much better
on a rebranded NG XBox clone, however.

Last edited by Maczilla on 13-Jan-2005 at 03:25 PM.
Last edited by Maczilla on 13-Jan-2005 at 03:21 PM.
Last edited by Maczilla on 13-Jan-2005 at 03:20 PM.
Last edited by Maczilla on 13-Jan-2005 at 03:20 PM.

@Trezzer

Quote:

5. Has in/out for pretty much everything you need including dv-cams

This is my biggest criticism about the MiniMac, it does not have the right connectors. It has only two USB and one FireWire sockets and, even bader, they are on the back (just like the power button) which makes it hard to easy plug in you dv cam, camera, usb stick etc.
And then, there isn't surround (or at least digital) audio output or any audio input, but they've included a modem port.

Nah, I don't like, it doesn't impress me.

Ciao, Alfred

@Serpi

USB is on the keyboard. As for DV cam - I leave the cableattached to the computer

Sound could be an issue yes - but you can get something like an Edirol for this - jacks into the USB or firewire port.

As it is its a very viable work horse for office tasks and surfing. You wont get the viri or spywhere - it will get apple market share, and more mac converts.

I think this new Mac Mini looks very nice. Clean, simple, uncluttered, not scary, no go faster stripes, no scary buttons. It looks like it will just work. I'm sure it will just work.

The size is tiny. It redefines the meaning of SFF (Small Form Factor) by being a fraction of the size of even the smallest mini-itx system.

It comes with a rather excellent operating system, and a very good suite of software. You don't have to worry about malware, spyware, etc, and viruses are still very rare. That's worth a lot in itself to the average person. Especially if otherwise they'd be doing PC support for their family/friends.

And it has discrete graphics. Most low-end PCs, aside from being dog ugly, use integrated graphics. It might merely be a 9200, but that is still better than the majority, if not all, integrated chipsets.

There's nothing wrong with a 40GB hard drive. If it is such an issue, then go with the 80GB HD option and get a slightly faster processor too for another $100 / £60.

The only downsides for me are that it only has one DIMM slot, the hard drive is presumably 2.5" to fit in that case, the drive is a laptop one, hence more expensive than a standard drive. Those are to be expected with such a small machine. Apple aren't in the business of making standard computers.

Anyway, price up a similar machine with Dell, taking the software into consideration. Even with the lowest-end Dimension 2400 it came out more expensive, way more expensive. Sure, I couldn't remove the keyboard or cheap-ass monitor, but still. This new Mac Mini *is* price competitive. And comparing that Dell to the Mac ... no competition. There's a black brick, and there's style. I priced a 512MB/80Gig 1.2GHz Superdrive Mac Mini with keyboard/mouse at £527inc. The Dell was £676inc. (+ lowest end monitor). yes, I did remove the Dell 'care package', and it was a 2.6GHz Celeron, but yeah, a Celeron... I know what I'd rather have on my desk.

@Hattig

If the harddrive issue bothers you, Speedmania sells GREAT external HDD casings with a plethora of HDD's to choose from. We used them a lot at the hospital I worked at (IT-section) before on several mac's and x86 machines. Did hardly take any desktop space.

If I get an A1 I was thinking of trying to use one on that too.

_________________
”It’s all a matter of technique. We have it, and you don’t, so if you shut the #### up, we’ll play some songs and everyone’ll be happy.”

@Serpi

Quote:

even bader, they are on the back (just like the power button) which makes it hard to easy plug in you dv cam, camera, usb stick etc.

Who says they're on the back of the computer?

With a flick of the wrist and a 90 degree rotation you have the slot in dvd on one side and all the connectors on the other. Just like the Amiga's on the 'ol days!

_________________
Fixed A1G4XE 7455 RX933PC with fried CPU
Sapphire Radeon 9100 128mb
ESI Juli@ 24bit 192kHz Envy24HT
Sil 680 Ultra Ata 133 E-ide
SeaGate Barracuda 120gb 8mb cache

@dan.hutch

Quote:

Trouble is, once you add a usb hub, cordless keyboard and mouse and so on your neat little computer will soon be hidden under a mass of cables and more boxes, hub, rf reciever, ipod dock, etc.

Err, the Bluetooth module is internal (or at worse, a USB device, but it is internal on other Mac models, and I think it has a mini-PCI slot inside for these things), the Bluetooth wireless keyboard and mouse will, by definition, have no wires, and you'll have two free USB ports on the Mac Mini to use for the iPod Dock / iPod shuffle and something else.

Quote:

Does the system include any keyboard and mouse?

As far as I can tell, it doesn't. Lots of people have USB keyboards and mice already though. The wired keyboard/mouse isn't that much anyway.

Quote:

I just think they could have reduced costs a bit a made the design cleaner by skipping the DVI and just having VGA, as I'm sure most will use VGA anyway.

The 9200 supports DVI, it's only a connector. The Apple displays use DVI. HDTVs often have a DVI input. DVI is the way to go.

I do think having both an extra Firewire port and USB port on the front would have been a good idea from a functional point of view however. That, or having 4 USB ports on the back. Maybe this will be a much requested thing and Apple will update it in the revision 2 model, which is what I'll probably end up getting.

Quote:

DaveP wrote: Face it, most kids in 1989 bought A500s for Shadow Of The Beast 2 and not after having to reach for the kleenex over the spec sheet.

Hi DaveP,

That's absurd!

@BigBentheAussie

Quote:

And so will an Amiga....but now we have 2 war fronts instead of just one. I don't count Wintel as a front, as that battle is lost anyway....We're talking about alternative hardware buyers.

I see it different. Its anybodys game right now.

If you would have been at CES you would have seen this. MS is trying to move into the living rooms and also has to move into the AMD64 (new windows).

For the first time MS screwed over Intel. No new Windows 64 bit for their chip.

Sony's new PS3 is still hidden, and the next Xbox comes out before Sony.

Now we have the Mini Mac announcement. Change is good !

Now the Amiga market: wish everyone would just wait a couple of months and not buy the quick mini-mac purchase and wait see for the Coldfire board, the PPC card etc.

Most of the hard work is now over, with the good work of beta testers of OS4 and working outthe bugs in the HW with Eyetech.

It all looks good to me!

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Intuitioned

Well, it's kind of cute, but does it save desktop space? I mean, if it were a little wider, you could set your monitor on top of it or if it were a bit less wide, it would take up less room on the side of the monitor. So I guess in the right instance it may save space, but for me probably not much. It looks OK, but again, nothing ground breaking.

@Interesting

Quote:

MS is trying to move into the living rooms and also has to move into the AMD64 (new windows).

Definitely, at home integration computing looks to be the next big step.

Quote:

For the first time MS screwed over Intel. No new Windows 64 bit for their chip.

You are mistaken.

Intel says their Itanium 64-bit chip is a server chip. It's a different command set then the Pentium or AMD x86. Microsoft said that Win XP 64-bit will not come out for Itanium. Win XP is positioned as a desktop OS. The server OS, Win2K3 Server EditionS, are still in the works for the server chip, Intel Itanium. No screwing over here. Just not making a desktop OS for a processor that's not intended for the desktop.


Quote:

Now we have the Mini Mac announcement. Change is good

Change is change it intristically has no value of itself.