@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote: @Kronos If there was no OS4, they could not have made that money,

There was no OS4, and they still made money ....

Quote:

thus they made that money on OS4. And since only Hyperion and Eyetech had exclusive rights to market OS4, only they would have been allowed to conduct such coupon schemes, and take money in advance from their future customers.

In which case they should have filled for breach of contract in 2002 .....

Quote:

No, the money obviously belongs to those who bought thet coupons/pack, not Hyperion. However currently only Hyperion and Eyetech have the right to deal with the OS4 customers, the market is theirs exclusively.

Which doesn't give them the right to take money from operations they had nothing to do with.

And offcourse thats all just valid for the smaller "I am Yoda"-scam, the far bigger Party-Pack-scam happened even before Hyperion got involved.

_________________
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@Kronos

Quote:

There was no OS4, and they still made money ....

Amiga Inc breached the contract regardless of when the OS was released. Having exclusive rights to market and distribute means only Hyperion or Eyetech would have had the right to take money with such coupon schemes.

Quote:

In which case they should have filled for breach of contract in 2002

Sure, that would have made them popular in front of their customers, suing the company who gave them rights shortly after they made a deal

Quote:

Which doesn't give them the right to take money from operations they had nothing to do with.

It does, because Hyperion had the right to take money on such coupon schemes, Amiga Inc. did not.

@Kronos

Quote:

And offcourse thats all just valid for the smaller "I am Yoda"-scam, the far bigger Party-Pack-scam happened even before Hyperion got involved.

http://www.amiga.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3805 dated 2001/6/11 but the links from there to Amiga.com's "special" no longer work.

The AmigaOne Partners contract is dated November 3 2001. http://www.merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/decmossshow_case_doc.pdf

I didn't know if the Party pack scam came before Hyperion's involvment or not when I saw your post, I just wanted to confirm that, and it does seem to be the case. I'm not sure I think it matters or not though.

_________________
All glory to the Hypnotoad!

@DonnieA2

Quote:

@Tigger I am just tired of coming in and reading these types of posts from you and others.

I agree with DonnieA2. People stop spamming and diluting this website !

(Edit:)
Reading that Amiga.org site. So they promised in June that AmigaOne PPC/1200 and AmigaOS4.0 will be released within next FEW WEEKS and signed a contract to actually start making those two 6 months later.

If McBill & Co had a nose of the Pinocchio it would go around this whole globe already !

Last edited by Tomppeli on 06-Nov-2007 at 07:45 PM.
Last edited by Tomppeli on 06-Nov-2007 at 07:45 PM.

_________________
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"Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." -Seymour Cray

@Tomppeli

Quote:

I agree with DonnieA2. People stop spamming and diluting this website !

come on now. Armchair lawyer slug fests are fun.

_________________
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@Spectre660

Maybe there should exist "Armchair lawyer slug fest" area/forum on this forum !!!

_________________
Rock lobster bit me. My Workbench has always preferences. X1000 + AmigaOS4.1 FE
"Anyone can build a fast CPU. The trick is to build a fast system." -Seymour Cray

@Tigger

Quote:

As I have said before there is a big flaw in Amiga Inc(D)'s Lawsuit. The true implications of clause 2.06 of the 2001 Agreement has not been fully addressed by either side yet.

Quote:

We've all fully discussed 2.06, what exactly do you think is said in those 5 sentences that hasnt been discussed to death? Both sides have talked about it extensively. -Tig

Clause 2.06 is in fact a termination clause. Had the full USD25,000.00 been paid to Hyperion in 2003 they would have had not obligation to do any more work
on OS4. Just hand over the code done up to to 2003 as far they could get the rights from developers.

_________________
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@Tomppeli
Quote:

I agree with DonnieA2. People stop spamming and diluting this website !

The "Tigger wars" seem to be kept to one (or maybe two) threads only these days. Let them have their thread.

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote: Sorry Tig, but Amiga offered free copies of OS4.0 and 4.2 with the Party Pack, the $100 credit was for an AmigaOne. You could choose one or the other. Neither of them were honoured by Amiga Inc and the frustrated customers where expecting Hyperion to provide the free copies of OS4, etc. You can't deny that these acts by Amiga Inc. created a lot of damage in Hyperion's market, a market where Hyperion had exclusive rights according to the contract, and Amiga Inc. were not allowed to interfere.

First of all the Party Pack was before the contract, second of all as someone that bought a Party Pack I was told $100 credit, your free 4.0 and 4.2 is a myth as far as I an actual person who bought the party pack (actually several) knows. I also was completely aware that I was going to get the rebate money from AI, not Hyperion or H&P or whoever I bought the OS from. It didnt create alot of damage in the market, not selling a standalone copy of OS 4 until Nov 30, 2007 created lots more problems for the market. Every single copy of OS 4.0 possible (one per each AmigaOne) has already been sold, so blaming AI for loss of revenue is silly, there is no loss revenue at this time. They sold every single board they had, are people owed money by AI (or Amino) absolutely, but the because there is no OS 4.0 standalone and every possible AmigaOne version was sold, there is no loss of revenue for Hyperion to complain about.

Quote:

You are correct in that the contract does not explicitly mention "Party Pack", rather it states that Hyperion have exclusive rights in the market, and Amiga Inc. shall not make money from OS4 apart from the royalties from 4.1 up. Despite that they used the Party Pack and "I am Amiga" coupon schemes to raise money on Os4, and made a substantial amount of money from them. That is clearly a breach of contract.

No, the coupons were a losing money proposition, always were. They took $50 and gave a chance on a free AmigaOne, membership in Cam, free T-Shirt and $50 credit on an Amiga based product. Well over 1/2 of those who bought the coupons havent been able to use them because Hyperion hasnt had products for them.



Quote:

I already have, seems you didn't pay attention. It's clause 2.01 of the contract, which says the AmigaOne partners get exclusive rights to market and distribute the OS. Rebates are marketing, and last time I checked, Amiga Inc. was not one of the "AmigaOne partners"... And I hope I don't have to explain to you what "exclusive right" means...

I'd argue that rebated arent marketing.

Quote:

Wrong again. The term "AmigaOne partners" is a collective term used to refer to the two companies Hyperion and Eyetech collectively, for simplifying the contract, it does not make the two companies a single legal entity, and all 3 companies are listed seperately in the beginning of the contract,

Actually if you look at the first page it says it is a contract

"by and between

1) Amiga Inc ...

and

2) Hyperion VOF

3) Eyetech Group Ltd


which is a two party contract, notice the one not two ands.


Quote:

If you imply that this is the case, that proves that you have little understanding of what is going on. When the judge denied Amiga Inc's request for Preliminary Injunction, it restored the original status quo, meaning Hyperion can continue business according to the terms and conditions of the 2001 contract as long as the court case lasts and until a decision is made by the judge. Since the 2001 contract gives Hyperion the right to market and distribute OS4 for classic PPC Amigas, there's no need for any delay tactics.

I completely understand the case Cobra, you are one that doesnt seem to grasp the nuances. Once the case is over Hyperion likley will not be able to sell OS 4.0. So, they are delaying the court case, because as long as the judge has not ruled against them they can continue to sell the now announed Classic PPC OS 4.0 version and collect money from it. Starting a second court case in the state of washington about the same contract is only going to extend not accelerate the completion of the case.

Quote:

Also, if we look at your other claim that Hyperion think they are losing, then delay tactics are not a sensible choice either, since the longer the case lasts, the more money they will have to pay for legal expenses of both AI and themselves.

They delay, they make money from sales of the OS, they delay maybe AI will try to settle, the judge rules they lose, they have nothing. Hyperion can't pay AI's current bill, they can't pay all the extra money AI-Itec-KMOS paid them back either. Why would you think that starting a new trial is going to speed up the process?
-Tig

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We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tomppeli
Quote:

Maybe there should exist "Armchair lawyer slug fest" area/forum on this forum !!!

When I suggested something like this way back when wegster bit my head off and laughed at me. That's OK. I'm used to abuse from wegster.

_________________
ExecSG Team Lead

@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote: Clause 2.06 is in fact a termination clause. Had the full USD25,000.00 been paid to Hyperion in 2003 they would have had not obligation to do any more work on OS4. Just hand over the code done up to to 2003 as far they could get the rights from developers.

How many posts of mine would you like me to point to where I said that very thing? Of course Hyperion didnt ever give them the code and just kept saying you havent paid us in full, pay more, which KMOS did on at least two occasions and then Itec sent them another complete $25K and still no code has been given to AI.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tomppeli

Quote:

Tomppeli wrote: @DonnieA2 Quote: @Tigger I am just tired of coming in and reading these types of posts from you and others. I agree with DonnieA2. People stop spamming and diluting this website ! (Edit:) Reading that Amiga.org site. So they promised in June that AmigaOne PPC/1200 and AmigaOS4.0 will be released within next FEW WEEKS and signed a contract to actually start making those two 6 months later. If McBill & Co had a nose of the Pinocchio it would go around this whole globe already !

One thing we should not forget, while these conversations are annoying, they would not exist if it were not for Amiga and Hyperion not hammering out a settlement. The main issue here is that these companies continue this madness, the stuff here is just an after-effect. And unfortunately its basically relevant (but futiley circular) content for his site. If you want it to stop the best advice I think is for everyone to write Pennti Kouri until he is sick of hearing from us and makes a decisive business move to get past all of this. Otherwise these companies both seem to be in for a very very long haul on this, and Tigger (and some others) have lost no appetite in continually discussing the multiple lawsuits. The only other option, stop writing things that Tigger will feel compelled to respond to. Thats the only two options I see.

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@Tomppeli

Quote:

Tomppeli wrote: I agree with DonnieA2. People stop spamming and diluting this website !

Read another thread if this one bothers you. Its funny I somehow don't ever need to go to the Leopard vs Vista thread and complain about it spamming an Amiga site, or the Google Phone thread and complain about it being Spam, but people actually talking about a lawsuit actually involving Amiga companies, wow that is Spam and is definitely diluting the website.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

Sadly Tigger is correct on this, he does have a right to discuss the subject, no-matter how wrong I hope he may be, and no-matter how many times everyone on the thread keeps the discussion going in little circles that dance madly in the moonlight...

_________________
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote: Sadly Tigger is correct on this, he does have a right to discuss the subject, no-matter how wrong I hope he may be, and no-matter how many times everyone on the thread keeps the discussion going in little circles that dance madly in the moonlight...

Actually the meat of this thread is discussing why on earth Hyperion started a second case. I think the only rational reason is to delay the other case, Cobra thinks the opposite but has yet to explain why opening a new case speeds up the first one. Presenting documents on Belgian Bankruptcy and Insolvency laws as part of your court documents for a court case in Washington State Federal Court seems to be grasping at straws to me, but that probably means they understand under US law they werent insolvent. The problem with that line of thinking is its Belgian law and if we really get into the intent of the contract someone is going to point out that Insolvency was in there because of Eyetech at which point everyone would have to agree they werent insolvent. Its also interesting they Belgian law they are quoting is from 2002, which means it came into effect after the Nov 3, 2001 contract was signed.
-Tig

_________________
We played the first thing that came to our heads, it just happened to be the best song in the world.

@Tigger

Quote:

Presenting documents on Belgian Bankruptcy and Insolvency laws as part of your court documents for a court case in Washington State Federal Court seems to be grasping at straws to me

Uh, I think it wasn't Hyperion who threw that document in. AFAICT, it was just Rich Woods who shoved it into the same directory on his server as the Hyperion-v-Amino docs.

Why? Who knows. It's Rich....

@Tigger

Quote:

First of all the Party Pack was before the contract, second of all as someone that bought a Party Pack I was told $100 credit, your free 4.0 and 4.2 is a myth as far as I an actual person who bought the party pack (actually several) knows.

As I explained before it's irrelevant whether they were already in breach of the contract when they signed it, of if they breached it later. Btw look here, it's quite clear that you either get $100 off the price of an AmigaOne, or you get a free copy of AmigaOS 4.0 and 4.2.

Quote:

Every single copy of OS 4.0 possible (one per each AmigaOne) has already been sold, so blaming AI for loss of revenue is silly

You still don't get it, the fact that the AmigaOne partners got exclusive rights to market and distribute OS4 means they're the only ones who would be allowed to do marketing acts like offering coupons, etc. AInc simply threw away that right by signing the 2001 contract. Then it has become the exclusive right of the AmigaOne partners to use such coupon schemes to get funds in advance to speed up development of the OS or whatever, and AInc doing this themselves prevented Hyperion from exercising that right.

Quote:

I'd argue that rebated arent marketing.

You have just proved that this is not the case with this statement:

Quote:

No, the coupons were a losing money proposition, always were. They took $50 and gave a chance on a free AmigaOne, membership in Cam, free T-Shirt and $50 credit on an Amiga based product.

Losing propositions are a common means to promote/market a product. There is no other reason to do it. Or let's look at what wikipedia has to say, let me quote for you: A rebate is a type of sales promotion marketers use primarily as incentives or supplements to product sales..

Quote:

1) Amiga Inc ... and 2) Hyperion VOF 3) Eyetech Group Ltd which is a two party contract, notice the one not two ands.

It is a contract between 3 seperate companies (with 2 of them collectively called "AmigaOne Partners", I figured you can count to 3. Also, you still haven't pointed out to me, where in the contract it says that Hyperion has any responsibilities with regards to producing hardware.

Quote:

Once the case is over Hyperion likley will not be able to sell OS 4.0

Since you failed to come up with any valid arguments which would imply that, I take it that this is simply a wish of yours because of your strong feelings against Hyperion, which you have made apparent a countless number of times before.

Quote:

as long as the judge has not ruled against them they can continue to sell the now announed Classic PPC OS 4.0 version and collect money from it.

That's the silliest thing I read from you today. Releasing the classic version isn't going to give Hyperion any substantial amount of money. We're talking about a couple of hunderd copies at most, considering the low manufacturing quantity, the amount of time developers have spent on the classic version, it is hardly going to help Hyperion financially.

Quote:

Why would you think that starting a new trial is going to speed up the process?

In case you haven't noticed, neither Amiga Delaware, nor Itec are a legal successor of the OS4 contract (unless they can provide some documents which I haven't seen yet), which means Amino (who are the same company as Amiga Washington which the 2001 was signed with) are the ones who have those rights. I think that after finding out that this company is still active, the only logical thing for Hyperion to do is to take the opportunity and get a declaratory judgement on the ownership issues.

Last edited by COBRA on 06-Nov-2007 at 11:37 PM.

@Tomppeli

Quote:

So they promised in June that AmigaOne PPC/1200 and AmigaOS4.0 will be released within next FEW WEEKS and signed a contract to actually start making those two 6 months later.

No. They said in June that the AmigaOne from Escena and OS4 from H&P would be released on (IIRC) November 1st. Come November, they then said "oops, that didn't work out... New plan, Escena-made AmigaOne and Hyperion-made OS4 in March 2002", and signed a contract with Hyperion to develop the OS4 part.

Now, they certainly should have known, at both times, that the Escena thing was never going to happen, but apparently they didn't (why else write it into a contract which was never meant to be seen by the public). I positively do know that they were aware of the H&P OS4 not happening when the announcement in June was made. As for the Hyperion-made OS4 --- anybody with even the slightest bit of expertise would have known that it was never going to be ready by March 2002; That excuses Bill and Fleecy, though....

@COBRA

Quote:

However you can't deny that Amiga Inc. did make money on OS4 which they were not allowed to do under the OS4 contract,

Which is all fine and dandy, but Hyperion doesn't say "they sold coupons and thus breached the contract", Hyperion says "they sold coupons and thus caused us quantifiable monetary damage, which makes us a creditor".

They also promise to prove the damages at trial time, which should be most interesting...

Quote:

hey can ask the judge to decide on Amiga Inc. having to pay that outstanding money to them, so that they can compensate all the people who paid it back then.

Because Hyperion has this great track record of paying back money to people who thought they paid for something, but then didn't receive that something, right?

Last edited by umisef on 06-Nov-2007 at 11:36 PM.

@COBRA

[about the party packs]
Quote:

You can't deny that these acts by Amiga Inc. created a lot of damage in Hyperion's market, a market where Hyperion had exclusive rights according to the contract, and Amiga Inc. were not allowed to interfere.

So you are suggesting that in November 2001, Hyperion signed a contract with Amiga Inc which Amiga Inc was in breach of the moment they signed it, and which Hyperion *knew* Amiga Inc would be in breach of the moment they signed it --- and now, literally 6 years later, they want to benefit from that? Come on!

If anything, the utter lack of mention of the party packs in that 2001 contract either (a) constitutes a waiver, or (b) shows just how badly the damn thing was drafted. And we all know who boasted about drafting it, right?