@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

PlayStation 1 is a 33.8 Mhz computer. resultion PAL 4:3 PlayStation 2 is a ~ 300Mhz computer PlayStation 3 is a 3.2 GHz computer, resultion 720p Just to compare the PlayStation 1,2,3,4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptiN9yeQlB4

PS1 has a 58 Mhz GTE integer math co-processor and GPU @ 53 Mhz for hardware texture mapper, not just the 33 Mhz R3000A CPU.

Quote:

@NutsAboutAmiga, the last powerpc for Amiga in late 90's is a: Bizzard CyberStrom PPC 604 is 233Mhz.

Phase 5's PowerPC upgrades are limited by under 1 million install base of A1200/A2000/A3000/A4000 market and Phase 5 couldn't expand this smaller market since they didn't control the Amiga platform.

Petro Tyschtschenko's Amiga Walker's 030 @ 40Mhz + AGA in 1996 is a joke when the PC competition is deep in the 3rd revision Pentium P54C with at least the S3 Trio 64 era while PS1 beats Amiga Walker on hardware gaming specs. Amiga Walker is just an embarrassment. in 1996.

I didn't expect much from Petro Tyschtschenko and white box shipper Escom.

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@matthey

Quote:

As I said earlier, beyond 2005 is where unified shaders and SMP started to become more common for games. AmigaOS 4 has optional Warp3D Nova support for the unified shaders but lacks SMP. A virtual 68k+ Amiga has neither. Also, many later x86-64 games require more single thread performance than either have. .

Due to AMD's oversized influence, Mantle API based Vulkan API has a little-endian bias, hence big-endian OS ecosystem is effectively EOL'ed in the 3D gaming front.

The last big endian gaming platforms are the Xbox 360 and PS3 era.

Quote:

@matthey, PS1 4 kiB instruction cache, no data cache, 1 kiB scratchpad memory PS2 16 kiB instruction cache, 8 kiB data cache, 16 kiB scratchpad memory PS3 32 kiB L1 instruction cache, 32 kiB L1 data cache and 512 kiB L2 cache

During the 1990s PS1 era, 20 ns VRAM effectively has 50 Mhz, hence covering PS1's 33 Mhz R3000A CPU, 58 Mhz GTE, and 53 Mhz GPU.

The cache gets larger when the CPU and GPU R&D pace exceeds the DRAM R&D pace.

C= Amiga doesn't use VRAM.

Last edited by Hammer on 14-Nov-2024 at 09:56 PM.

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@matthey

Quote:

The PS3 PPC CPU/PPE has a very deep pipeline for the high clock speed and many integer instructions have 2 cycle latency instead of the common single cycle latency. The CPU stalls easily and often has long stalls due to the deep pipeline. Single thread CPU performance is more comparable to a PPC CPU at half the clock speed while SMT can extract more total CPU performance with two threads and careful programming again. The X5000 CPU would likely be good enough to play PS3 games but the SIMD unit, SPEs and chipset would be challenging to emulate. Some simple PS3 games may have been PPC recompiles that the X5000 could emulate. The caches play a role in CPU performance which should be considered.

Quote:

The X5000 CPU would likely be good enough to play PS3 games but the SIMD unit, SPEs and chipset would be challenging to emulate.

I agree with that, you need some kind JIT compiler, a lot of PS3 games did not use the SPE, because it was difficult to use.

Without SMP support, I guess you need seclude etch core as process, creating a virtual core, perhaps some kind of WINE implementation, not emulating the hardware, just the API of the PS3 OS, can be possible. (you miss out on some features, like updates etc..)

A1222 has SPE but is not correct one… PowerPC SPE is not same as Cell SPE.

"PowerPC SPE" short for "Signal Processing Engine" (Dropped in GCC 9, in 2018)
"Cell SPE" short for "Synergistic Processing Element" (Supported by GCC)

So that does not help anything.

I know nothing about PS3 OS, so can’t comment on that part, but if you can compile agents a API, you normally recreate what on other side of the API. What do not know about. from program or game’s point of does not matter. It’s a difficult and complicated task that might take years to complete, however. Take Wine for example it’s not compile yet.

Wine is better at running games then programs, perhaps games needs fewer API's

But if some of the games wherever open sourced, having a PowerPC can make easier to adapt the game to AmigaOS4.x. given they do not require a game engine, we don’t have.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:09 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:08 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Nov-2024 at 09:55 PM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Due to AMD's oversized influence, Mantle API based Vulkan API has a little-endian bias, hence big-endian OS ecosystem is effectively EOL'ed in the 3D gaming front.

Well I don’t know about that, but Warp3D Nova / OpenGL ES, has to do deal with that already, having different endianness on Graphics card, or the Nort-bridge, then the CPU.

There typical things that needs to be updated, and things that do not need to be updated all the time, you can be clever about only updates the changes, or only converting parts that’s modified, everything does not need to updated at once. BE/LE conversions can sometimes be moved to load time. At least with games you can recompile. create tmp files, so you don't need to do it everytime.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:20 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:05 PM.

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

stop spreading lies about emu68 it is not 68k it is emulator and this emulator is still slower than many including sam580

1. Sam580 doesn't exist.

2. For Quake https://www.os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=game/fps/quake.lha,

From https://www.amigans.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?post_id=30915
640x480 on a Sam440, "timedemo demo1" gives around 34-35fps.

Emu68-stock RPi 4B (@ 1.8Ghz) on A500's 640x480p gives about 57 fps with ClickBoom's Quake build.

That's stressing the CPU, I/O, memory, and 2D RTG.

Your "this emulator is still slower than many including sam580" narrative is FALSE.

With an active cooling solution, RPi's ARM Cortex A72 can be overclocked to 2.2 Ghz like on my A1200's RPi CM4 configuration.

Last edited by Hammer on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:20 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

https://forum.amiga.org/index.php?topic=76677.0

From MagicSN1,


"Vulkan is done in a way that it cannot really be ported to Big-Endian platforms and a port of a Vulkan-Game would be really massive work (Endian-ness is really problematic here)."


Also from
From MagicSN,
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=45085&forum=33&start=60&viewmode=flat&order=0#865021


From Hans,
https://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=45085&forum=33&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0#865047

The main reason for Mantle's, Vulkan's, and DX12's lower overhead APIs is due to AMD's 2010 to 2016 era CPUs being weaker than the Intel competition. Xbox One is powered by weak tablet Jaguar CPUs.

Last edited by Hammer on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:48 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:45 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:38 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 14-Nov-2024 at 10:34 PM.

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@matthey

Quote:

The X5000 CPU would likely be good enough to play PS3 games but the SIMD unit, SPEs and chipset would be challenging to emulate. Some simple PS3 games may have been PPC recompiles that the X5000 could emulate. The caches play a role in CPU performance which should be considered.

From https://whatcookie.github.io/posts/why-is-avx-512-useful-for-rpcs3/

https://whatcookie.github.io/Gow3Comparison.png
From left to right: SSE2, SSE4.1, AVX2/FMA, and Icelake tier AVX-512.
For God of War 3 PS3 emulation
SSE2 = 4.83 fps (missing CELL-SPE shufb instruction equivalent)
SSE 4.1 = 165.73 fps
AVX2/FMA = 187.36 fps
AVX-512 Ice Lake tier = 241.97 fps

128-bit vector processing is life for PS3 games.

CELL-SPE shufb (shuffle bytes) instruction is very important instruction for emulation.

2006's Core 2 SSSE3 pshufb is invaluable for emulating CELL-SPE shufb instruction.

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@Hammer

One of the points of vulkan is to remove complications to permit a more efficient low level model for drivers. Being Endian agnostic, in a world where there are basically zero extant Big Endian systems left in current generation consumer grade 3D space, is one such complication.

Given this, it should come as a surprise to noone if Vulkan picked Little Endian and ran with it.

-edit-

That said, I don't think there's much mandating going on in the implementation specification (now that I've had a chance to read some of it).

Last edited by Karlos on 15-Nov-2024 at 08:37 PM.

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Doing stupid things for fun...

so vulcan exists on rpi4 but it is not avaible on aos on emu68
get lost with this shit emu68

thats the problem with all aos like solutions on commodity hardware
it is not worth of use

szulc karlos fishy fisz hammmer etc
stop trolling and start working on something usable

to end this bs

for pc I have windows
for arm I have android
real 68k has not usable 3D graphics

so I will still be using powerpc
not pc and many times faster and better than 68k

@ppcamiga1

Quote:

so vulcan exists on rpi4 but it is not avaible on aos on emu68 get lost with this shit emu68

Please remind us all where Vulkan for PPC AmigaOS is up to.

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@Karlos

Game =//= Game Engine =//= Gfx Driver.

Most games does not care what GFX driver you have, its game engine that cares,
the game only cares about AI's and physics, player positions, and states running/falling/dead/alive.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2024 at 06:52 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2024 at 06:51 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @Karlos Game =//= Game Engine =//= Gfx Driver. Most games does not care what GFX driver you have, its game engine that cares, the game only cares about AI's and physics, player positions, and states running/falling/dead/alive.

And you think this is news to me?

Was there a specific point you're trying to make or you just need affirmation of your statement?

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

stop trolling and start working on something usable

Why would we stop when you make it so much fun by being quite possibly the single easiest person ever to bait?
Don't even have to say anything half the time, we just have to have interaction about anything and your brain manages to get paranoid that we care what you say all by itself.
When someone is that feeble and also a d!ck then the ease at which you get baited is a gift, and one that is hard to resist sometimes.
As long as you behave like a fruit loop people will gleefully troll you when they're bored.

You must get that right?

Or are you actually even more feeble than that and actually are having legitimate breakdowns over what other people think and enjoy as a hobby?

@fishy_fis

I dunno man, I often feel like he's the troll and we're the meat puppets.

He posts the same BS every time, with almost no variation whatsoever, and manages to get a 50 page thread out of it.

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@Karlos

He's the analog engagement master, before threads, before Twitter...

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@Hammer

Quote:

"Vulkan is done in a way that it cannot really be ported to Big-Endian platforms and a port of a Vulkan-Game would be really massive work (Endian-ness is really problematic here)."

Not sure that’s true, you can create a c++ class, that have operator methods, for set, get, add, subtract etc, and wrap all the endianness stuff in there. If you do that, a lot mess goes away, I’m not saying that’s ideal or anything, but to say that its a showstopper I think not.

But if want it to be fast you perhaps assuming everything is LE can be unwanted.

I think the biggest issue for AmigaOS, is that’s not Linux, when you port a driver, or something on kernel level, it has to adapted to AmigaOS ecosystem, its not just a simple recompile. There is no standardized layer for different OS kernels.

its not just Endianness, 32bit OS's are becoming less common as well, it has become more common for the OS to be 64bit.

Expectation of a game regarding memory resources and disk speed, has gone up as well, something like 128mb of memory is too small for big game, impossible on a 680x0 CPU.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2024 at 10:52 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2024 at 10:49 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2024 at 10:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Nov-2024 at 10:44 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Face it. 64-bit / SMP have been standard for mainstream architectures for about 20 years already. Graphics cards pack more RAM than can fit in the 32-bit address space for years now. My 2007 GPU had just shy of 1GB of video memory then. Within a couple of years 4GB+ became the norm. 32-bit just doesn't cut it.

Many existing OpenGL implementations were implemented prior to SMP and weren't able to take much advantage of multiple cores. Again, Vulkan came after that and sought to address this.

So if you want a good Vulkan implementation, endianness is likely the least of your worries.

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@ppcamiga1

Quote:

szulc karlos fishy fisz hammmer etc stop trolling and start working on something usable

Stop trolling and start working on a cheaper PPC OS4 or PPC System 54 platform.

Last edited by Hammer on 16-Nov-2024 at 12:59 AM.

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@Karlos

Quote:

Karlos wrote: @Hammer One of the points of vulkan is to remove complications to permit a more efficient low level model for drivers. Being Endian agnostic, in a world where there are basically zero extant Big Endian systems left in current generation consumer grade 3D space, is one such complication. Given this, it should come as a surprise to noone if Vulkan picked Little Endian and ran with it. -edit- That said, I don't think there's much mandating going on in the implementation specification (now that I've had a chance to read some of it).

When it comes to endianness, SPIR-V is apparently little-endian encoded. LE is not a major issue for Linux LE on POWER9 or ARMv8.

https://registry.khronos.org/SPIR-V/specs/unified1/SPIRV.html

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