There has been various debate about how much crowd funding for 68k or Amiga hardware could raise. I noticed a claim about X68000 hardware crowd funding.

https://www.zuiki.co.jp/x68000z/EN/x68000z2/ Quote:

X68000 Z LIMITED EDITION EARLY ACCESS KIT Crowdfunded in December 2022. Astonishingly, it reached its funding goal within one hour, surpassed ¥100 million in four hours, and ended with over ¥3.5 billion—exceeding 1000% of the initial target.

Google tells me that ¥3.5 billion Japanese Yen is equivalent to $24,311,126.84 United States Dollars. The Ouya microconsole broke records in 2012 at $8,596,475 raised by a Kickstarter with 904% of the goal. I believe retro hardware has more appeal than ARM hardware like the Ouya and inflation would narrow the difference but the X68000 was only in Japan and not nearly as popular as the 68k Amiga. Various X68000 Z hardware has been released but with crap emulation inside where with that kind of money, more authentic hardware could be produced. Even a 68k SoC ASIC could be produced with that kind of money. I searched for any other information on the claimed crowd funding and did not find much but there is a language barrier. Am I missing something? Thoughts?

Last edited by matthey on 04-May-2025 at 05:10 AM.

@matthey from the site:
Quote:

Quad-Core Arm Cortex-A7 up to 1.2GHz, Mali-400MP2 Octa-Core Arm Cortex-A55 up to 2.0GHz, RISC-V up to 200MHz, Mali-G57

It is ridiculously expensive for such poor hardware.

Anyway, the main problem for the Amiga is getting some professional to design a 68k ASIC.

But I think that with a budget of more than $24 millions it shouldn't be that difficult.

@matthey

My first thoughts…
https://youtu.be/tl6u2NASUzU

Secondly…
Quote:

crap emulation

Again you miss the point, just like with A600GS/A1200NG and the RGL systems.

It’s not the emulated system itself that is the selling point, it’s the full package, the software that presents the emulator and its software to the user, through modern interfaces and modern interaction. Even if you had real ASIC 68k, you’d still need FPGA for chipset and most likely also ARM for modern I/O, graphics, bluetooth, network etc. and that ARM is more than capable of also emulating old 68k plenty fast enough…. so why introduce the mighty extra cost of ASIC 68k?

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@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @matthey My first thoughts… https://youtu.be/tl6u2NASUzU

Why you've to remind me that I'm old?
Quote:

Secondly… Quote: crap emulation Again you miss the point, just like with A600GS/A1200NG and the RGL systems. It’s not the emulated system itself that is the selling point, it’s the full package, the software that presents the emulator and its software to the user, through modern interfaces and modern interaction.

Well, that's depends on the target marget.

For retro end-users, yes.

For embedded, you don't even/necessarily need a chipset...
Quote:

Even if you had real ASIC 68k, you’d still need FPGA for chipset

A small one is enough for a chipset.
Quote:

and most likely also ARM for modern I/O,

A companion 68000 should be enough for that.
Quote:

graphics, bluetooth, network etc.

That's more on the 68k ASIC side. But the (high-performance) 68k core can be duplicated for more complex systems. Even low-end ARM SoCs have four cores available...
Quote:

and that ARM is more than capable of also emulating old 68k plenty fast enough….

A 68k ASIC doesn't need to emulate anything, by definition.
Quote:

so why introduce the mighty extra cost of ASIC 68k?

Costs reduction + more markets addressable?

Why you need more than $24 millions to build... a poor & cheap ARM-based X68000?!?

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: @kolla Quote: kolla wrote: @matthey My first thoughts… https://youtu.be/tl6u2NASUzU Why you've to remind me that I'm old?

Here is the fix for that.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: Why you need more than $24 millions to build... a poor & cheap ARM-based X68000?!?

You don’t, but that’s what was raised, right? My wild guess is that most of it goes to logistics, the injection molds for the cases, for the custom legacy style keyboards. And of course to pay the people involved, including software developers who put together the interface through which the emulation is orchestrated.

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@Kronos

Quote:

Kronos wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: @kolla Why you've to remind me that I'm old? Here is the fix for that.

LOL and GREAT reply!


@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: Why you need more than $24 millions to build... a poor & cheap ARM-based X68000?!? You don’t, but that’s what was raised, right?

Yes, but the project's demand was MUCH LESS!

That's also the point that Matt wanted to highlight.
Quote:

My wild guess is that most of it goes to logistics, the injection molds for the cases, for the custom legacy style keyboards. And of course to pay the people involved, including software developers who put together the interface through which the emulation is orchestrated.

Yes, but see above: it costed 1/10.

However, they got much more, and with this new budget they can even create a complete 68k SoC (ASIC, of course) for the X68000, super doped versions of it, and much more...

@cdimauro

Quote:

For embedded, you don't even/necessarily need a chipset...

This thread is clearly not about embedded, but… yes you do need chipset also for embedded, just different kind of chipset, not necessarily graphics and audio, but still I/O.

Quote:

Quote: and most likely also ARM for modern I/O, A companion 68000 should be enough for that.

That’s how it’s done on some minimig systems… and you know what’s common for them? Nothing modern about them, analogue or extremely rudimentary digital graphics output at best, and ps/2 for mouse/kbd.

Quote:

Quote: graphics, bluetooth, network etc. That's more on the 68k ASIC side. But the (high-performance) 68k core can be duplicated for more complex systems.

How? Where’s the 68k equivalent of Mali? What “bridges� (north and south) can you connect the 68k to? How do you pay the required licensing? What software stacks do you use, and why?

Quote:

Even low-end ARM SoCs have four cores available...

Even low-end ARM have SoCs!!

There are no 68k SoC, and any SoC is so much more than just the CPU - that’s my point.

Quote:

Quote: and that ARM is more than capable of also emulating old 68k plenty fast enough…. A 68k ASIC doesn't need to emulate anything, by definition.

CPU emulation is irrelevant, a 68k ASIC has little to nothing it can interact with, not only is it “wrong endian�, it’s also obscure.

Last edited by kolla on 04-May-2025 at 07:33 AM.

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@kolla: if we've to stay in topic then not so much of what you've reported applies.

To be more clear, this X68000 revival brings NOTHING new to the original platform in terms of enhancement and modern capabilities.

So, they got more than $24 millions for a remake using a poor ARM SoC. Where's the innovation here? The new case? The usual emulator?

@cdimauro

Quote:

To be more clear, this X68000 revival brings NOTHING new to the original platform in terms of enhancement and modern capabilities.

Correct, and that’s also not the point of it.

Quote:

So, they got more than $24 millions for a remake using a poor ARM SoC. Where's the innovation here? The new case? The usual emulator?

There’s no need for innovation, this is merely the second spin of the same “mini� concept to improve a few things after feedback on the first iteration.

It shows, yet again, that emulation is plenty good enough and even a great benefit as it comes with a lot of useful stuff "for free� which then doesn’t have to be "re-invented" for obscure non-existing asic 68k.

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cdimauro Quote:

It is ridiculously expensive for such poor hardware. Anyway, the main problem for the Amiga is getting some professional to design a 68k ASIC. But I think that with a budget of more than $24 millions it shouldn't be that difficult.

Jeri Ellsworth made a C64 SoC ASIC and almost a 68k SoC ASIC by herself on a shoestring budget and with minimal licensing and developer resources (Amiga chipset schematics were provided after development was started). Retro Games Limited is capable to make the facade including functional keyboard, tank mouse, CD32 controller and Amiga 1200 case (THEA1200) and the micro business is not worth $24 million USD and their budget would be a tiny fraction of this. The original 68k CPU cores are likely licensable, SiFive SoCs are licensable and integrated GPUs are licensable which simplifies the work when there is plenty of money. SiFive could likely be contracted to develop a whole 68k SoC for far less than $24 million. I would like to think 1/3 of this would be more than adequate to develop and produce a semi-modern 68k SoC ASIC. So many fans want original retro chip replacements with enhancements or FPGA replacements but this is the way to remove bottlenecks and limitations while still using much of the original logic. The hardware inside is what made the 68k and Amiga special and a 68k SoC ASIC is the ultimate enhancement and an ASIC can make it cheap enough for the masses. The X68000 crowd funding only providing a facade for emulation on crap ARM hardware with a high price and poor compatibility is incompetence. The X68000 has 68060 accelerators so there is room for considerable enhancement like the 68k Amiga while retaining compatibility even if the chipset was just modernized to support more memory, HDMI, USB, NVMe drives, etc.

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote: @cdimauro Quote: To be more clear, this X68000 revival brings NOTHING new to the original platform in terms of enhancement and modern capabilities. Correct, and that’s also not the point of it.

It seems not correct: see below.
Quote:

Quote: So, they got more than $24 millions for a remake using a poor ARM SoC. Where's the innovation here? The new case? The usual emulator? There’s no need for innovation, this is merely the second spin of the same “mini� concept to improve a few things after feedback on the first iteration. It shows, yet again, that emulation is plenty good enough and even a great benefit as it comes with a lot of useful stuff "for free� which then doesn’t have to be "re-invented" for obscure non-existing asic 68k.

The ASIC can be created with such funding.

And I don't see why this "lot of useful stuff" (which also means that, despite your previous statement, there's innovation) can't be done as well. Even on em68 most of the things are developed on the 68k side and not on ARM side: there should be a reason for that, right?

@matthey

Quote:

matthey wrote: cdimauro Quote: It is ridiculously expensive for such poor hardware. Anyway, the main problem for the Amiga is getting some professional to design a 68k ASIC. But I think that with a budget of more than $24 millions it shouldn't be that difficult. Jeri Ellsworth made a C64 SoC ASIC and almost a 68k SoC ASIC by herself

Do you know where she got the 68k RTL, and which kind of architecture (68000, or 68020, or...)?
Quote:

on a shoestring budget and with minimal licensing and developer resources (Amiga chipset schematics were provided after development was started). Retro Games Limited is capable to make the facade including functional keyboard, tank mouse, CD32 controller and Amiga 1200 case (THEA1200) and the micro business is not worth $24 million USD and their budget would be a tiny fraction of this. The original 68k CPU cores are likely licensable,

I think so, but the important thing is if they are available in RTL form (VHDL, Verilog), otherwise it'll be difficult to create a (modern) ASIC out of them.
Quote:

SiFive SoCs are licensable

But they aren't specialized on CISC microarchitectures.

The PULP team in Zurich is more interesting, because their RISC-V extensions have more in common with 68k (post increment modes, load/store multiple registers... and even hardware loops).
Quote:

and integrated GPUs are licensable which simplifies the work when there is plenty of money. SiFive could likely be contracted to develop a whole 68k SoC for far less than $24 million. I would like to think 1/3 of this would be more than adequate to develop and produce a semi-modern 68k SoC ASIC.

Likely, but see above: maybe some help is needed for 68k pipeline to be implemented. However, PULP could be free (RLT sources available) and SiFive can use them as a reference for implementing the CISC design.
Quote:

So many fans want original retro chip replacements with enhancements or FPGA replacements but this is the way to remove bottlenecks and limitations while still using much of the original logic. The hardware inside is what made the 68k and Amiga special and a 68k SoC ASIC is the ultimate enhancement and an ASIC can make it cheap enough for the masses.

The Amiga market isn't enough IMO, especially after the the Mini A500.

It's better to think more widely, because there were several other 68k platforms.
That's why I've recommended to integrate a plain 68000 core with one or more enhanced 68k core, and a small FPGA to emulate the chipset of the given system.
This should cover many of such platforms.
Quote:

The X68000 crowd funding only providing a facade for emulation on crap ARM hardware with a high price and poor compatibility is incompetence. The X68000 has 68060 accelerators so there is room for considerable enhancement like the 68k Amiga while retaining compatibility even if the chipset was just modernized to support more memory, HDMI, USB, NVMe drives, etc.

I don't know the X68000 in terms of OS and games/applications, but it should have had the same problems of the Amiga when using more modern 68k. So, compatibility is a bit tricky to get.

Anyway, it's something which should be easily addressable with such a budget.

@cdimauro

Quote:

The Amiga market isn't enough IMO, especially after the the Mini A500.

At some point in time, that might be said regarding the Mini A500, and yet, here we are...

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cdimauro Quote:

Do you know where she got the 68k RTL, and which kind of architecture (68000, or 68020, or...)?

I believe Jeri reverse engineered the Amiga custom chips. Maybe reading the documentation about the behavior, measuring outputs and replacing functionality piece by piece. The following link is the video about it again.

The Amiga on a Chip Project - Too bad it was canceled
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uaDzF99a80

She says the Amiga custom chip design was more straight forward than the C64 design making it easier and then when she received the schematics it likely helped with final debugging. She had everything working from FPGA but the 68000 and Paula floppy controller. There have been several other Amiga chipset reverse engineered cores as well including at least 3 with AGA support and likely no schematics. I believe Jeri's Amiga on a chip was OCS/ECS only. How many times does the wheel need to be reinvented instead of improved?

cdimauro Quote:

But they aren't specialized on CISC microarchitectures.

It is mostly the CPU cores that are CISC specific while the majority of a SiFive SoC could likely be reused for a 68k SoC. The major gain is all the tested semi-modern I/O functionality most likely with open source Linux drivers. I expect the bigger question is not the integration of 68k CPU cores but the integration of the Amiga chipset I/O and DMA, which is like a SoC, with the SiFive SoC. The SiFive SoC is modular so the modules could be integrated into the Amiga chipset or the SiFive SoC could be left mostly as is with the Amiga chipset integrated. There are advantages and disadvantages to both and the decision would be influenced by hardware engineers.

cdimauro Quote:

The PULP team in Zurich is more interesting, because their RISC-V extensions have more in common with 68k (post increment modes, load/store multiple registers... and even hardware loops).

There are potentially multiple teams that could perform the work. I believe the SiFive architects are good enough but the best ones may remain on their core development. I believe the SiFive 7 series CPU cores use a good CISC like design that could be turned into a 68k design. Licensing original Motorola cores would save time, be better for compatibility and be better for marketing. The SiFive 7 series cores could be used to improve the Motorola cores if they were included with the SoC. SiFive could likely take the original Motorola 68k cores and insert them into a SiFive SoC. I prefer creating a small team and fabless semi business which I believe has significant potential to increase in value with successful and popular designs. I would seek input and help from former Motorola 68k employees which could not only be valuable for their input but also give legitimacy to a successor. The same could be done with Amiga Corp and Commodore employees/engineers involved in continued development of the Amiga chipset. Involvement from developers like Jeri would apply too.

cdimauro Quote:

The Amiga market isn't enough IMO, especially after the the Mini A500. It's better to think more widely, because there were several other 68k platforms. That's why I've recommended to integrate a plain 68000 core with one or more enhanced 68k core, and a small FPGA to emulate the chipset of the given system. This should cover many of such platforms.

I have been talking about universal 68k support and a 68000 core for compatibility for awhile too. Kind of like the MiSTer/Multisystem but with real 68k cores and a smaller cheaper FPGA for chipsets and 8-bit CPU cores. I have also talked about embedded markets which is not possible with the MiSTer/Multisystem but is possible with a 68k SoC ASIC. A small FPGA is useful for embedded use or it can be left off the SBC. I also like the idea of turning caches into addressable SRAM so the SoC could be used as a MCU. Versatility and reaching multiple markets are good as it increases sales volumes where chips are all about economies of scale.

cdimauro Quote:

I don't know the X68000 in terms of OS and games/applications, but it should have had the same problems of the Amiga when using more modern 68k. So, compatibility is a bit tricky to get. Anyway, it's something which should be easily addressable with such a budget.

Sure. A 68000 core should get the most stubborn software working and much more is possible for software that already supports a 68060. More hardware tools and resources are possible to improve compatibility today without handicapping performance for 68k CPU cores, chipsets and the connections between them that were not possible before.

@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: It is ridiculously expensive for such poor hardware.

They are case lovers:


- in elegant titanium-black
- ... sleek, angular silhouette

They are on the same level like Amiga fans who will pay a fortune* on a cheap ARM system in a clumsy A500 styled keyboard case.

* fortune (definition): at least 4 times as much as similar systems would cost on an open market.

@cdimauro

Quote:

That's why I've recommended to integrate a plain 68000 core with one or more enhanced 68k core, and a small FPGA to emulate the chipset of the given system. This should cover many of such platforms.

So you want the MiSTer: select 68000 as CPU in the Minimig core and you get ljor’s cycle-exact Fx68k CPU core, and you select 68020 you get the less cycle-exact TG68/020. Why a dedicated small FPGA for chipset? Why use two FPGAs when there’s enough space in one? As for AmiCube, from what I recall, it has this “swirch board� that lets you chose between real two DIP64 sockets, one for 68000 and one for either PiStorm or other accelerator.

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@matthey

From https://kibidango.com/2716
X68000Z2 project raised ¥344,748,398, which translates into US$2,401,666.36.

X68000 Z Super = SoC: Quad-Core ARM Cortex-A7 up to 1.2GHz, Mali-400MP2.

X68000 Z XVI = SoC: Octa-Core ARM Cortex-A55 up to 2.0GHz, RISC-V up to 200MHz, Mali-G57.
Cortex-A55 replaced Cortex-A53

Nano ITX Intel n305, Alder-N Lake SoC i.e. Alder-Lake's eCores up to 3.8 GHz.

Nano ITX Intel Core i5, Alder Lake i5-1245H SoC, Alder-Lake P-Cores up to 4.4 Ghz.

These are not real 68000, and the project's modern CPU selection can fall back to general-purpose Linux ARM or Windows/Linux X64 desktop use cases. This retro theme solution has reduced risk for the end user due to mainstream Linux ARM or Windows fallback use case software environment (this POV is in https://kibidango.com/2716 link).

PiStorm's RPi SBC can be reused for a mainstream desktop Linux ARM RPi use case fallback, which is not limited by obsolete Linux 68K.

A600GS can fall back to mainstream desktop Linux Orange Pi ARM.

Last edited by Hammer on 08-May-2025 at 03:21 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-May-2025 at 03:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-May-2025 at 02:55 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 08-May-2025 at 02:54 AM.

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@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote: It is ridiculously expensive for such poor hardware. Anyway, the main problem for the Amiga is getting some professional to design a 68k ASIC. But I think that with a budget of more than $24 millions it shouldn't be that difficult.

If you read from https://kibidango.com/2716

The Windows X64 fallback use case is a risk reduction tactic for the end user.

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@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote: @cdimauro Quote: The Amiga market isn't enough IMO, especially after the the Mini A500. At some point in time, that might be said regarding the Mini A500, and yet, here we are...

I hope that I can still be alive & kicking in 40 years.


@OneTimer1

Quote:

OneTimer1 wrote: @cdimauro Quote: cdimauro wrote: It is ridiculously expensive for such poor hardware. They are case lovers: - in elegant titanium-black - ... sleek, angular silhouette They are on the same level like Amiga fans who will pay a fortune* on a cheap ARM system in a clumsy A500 styled keyboard case. * fortune (definition): at least 4 times as much as similar systems would cost on an open market.

With the difference that the cheap A500 ARM systems costs 1/4 of the original machine (when it was launched), whereas this X68000 ARM system proportionally costs much more (compared to the original one).