@BrianK

Quote:

RPG over a FPS? Sure if that's the type of game play one preferes.

Not per se, but for me owning one or two good FPS/3rd person shooters is enough, unless the single player story is very strong or adds other rather unique things like Warhawk does. For multiplayer fun, Warhawk is more than sufficient for now (ground + dogfight shooter!), I am mostly looking forward Killzone 2 (goes far beyond anything I have seen so far for this gerne, very realistic approach!) and Resistance 2 (want to know how the story envolves, high anticipation from a technical perspective seeing how far the engine advanced already), Halo 3 doesn't interest me much.

@jiyong
Quote:

Yes, you were correct Tretton said sold through to the consumer, but claiming I didn't do research? A lot of articles I saw were talking about shipped and the ones that use the word "sold" usually are not clear if it's sold to retail or sold to consumer.

I provided you my evidence, which you appear to have lacked in your research. If you claim to did your research then so be it. I apologize for the accusation. I've provided you the evidence that you falsly accused me. I'm open to your forthcoming apology concerning your false accusation.

Quote:

I also have the suspicion you didn't do much research before I posted. At one point you even don't seem to care whether it is shipped or sold

I didn't care cuz the thread had moved on at that time and I didn't want to relive it. You were insistent so I decided to provide you the evidence. Your suspicions by now should be dead.

Quote:

The part in bold only refers to Tretton, not Hirai! I have said this before Brian, learn to read...

You included a link from the first article. But, here's the link from the 2nd article
'Worldwide sales of Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3 are expected to reach 11 million by the end of this fiscal year, a senior executive said in an interview published Saturday.

Sony Computer Entertainment's chief executive Kazuo Hirai told the Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper he was confident of fulfilling that goal' So indeed the news reported Hirari agreeing to the goal as sold. Again with the insults? Rudenss seems to run in your veins.

BTW I can't waste your time. I have no control of your time only you do. If this is wasting your time to a point you have to blame others for your behavior may I suggest that you take responsibility to find an outlet for yourself that doesn't waste your time.

Quote:

I saw on the internet, it wasn't clear if it was shipped or sold.

Okay. But, remember you were very very certain that I was oooh so wrong a hypocrite and unresearched right? But, your point said sold=shipped and that was that. You instead decided to be rude calling names and making accusations. Your approach is to assault others to 'win' some arguement by ensuring discussion never takes place. Had you been open inquiring how I could be so confident instead of insulting these posts would have had a completely different tone. I'm doing what I can to not step down into the insult gutter, I apologize for any comment that may have been insulting to you. I'm open to your apologizes for your insulting behavior.

Quote:

Hmmm, this doesn't match your statement that Sony hasn't shown the potential of the PS3. Not really consistent Brian

Of course it does. As MikeB has posed neither Lair nor Uncharted use 100% of the console. Thus, in turn there's lots of potential out there we just haven't seen. The only way this statement of yours would be correct is IF Lair was as good as it gets. I think the PS3 games can use more of the console and be better and therefore the PS3 hasn't shown us yet it's full potential.

Quote:

the 360 has the better hardware and dev support but the PS3 seems to be on par with more and more 3rd party titles. So judging from those statements, Sony is already over delivering.

The 360 did have better hardware and developer support from Microsoft then PS3 had from Sony. If I recall correctly we even saw a couple of games slipped from launch with the developers claiming Sony didn't have the right tools ready for them in time. We have seen Sony step up to the plate and help port UT3 and improve their tools. Times do change! The PS3 will have the tools it was lacking out of the chute, these have improved and will further improve. Porting UT3 was good as their middle-ware has been bought by many other developers. In turn this will make those other developer games more likely and easier to port to the PS3.

@BrianK

What do you think about these?

LG GGW-H20L, Review

LG GGC-H20L

Last edited by Samwel on 25-Dec-2007 at 05:43 AM.

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@MikeB

Refer to http://research.scea.com/ps3_deferred_shading.pdf
Sony used 5 SPUs for pixel shading i.e. effectively 20 pixel shader operation Geforce 7800GTX. Remember, the programmer has 6 SPUs to play with.

This could fix G70's lack of concurrent texture and shader math operations ability as highlighted by nVidia. This will reduce the available SPU resource.
Other G70 issues to be fix are in Early-Z, vertex and geometry shading.

Refer to http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_37100.html Page 39

Text Diagram
G7x
(shader)(a)_____(shader)(a)_____(shader)(a)_____(shader)(a)
_______(texture)_______(texture)_______(texture)_______(texture)

This design issue will reduce the practical shader operations for G7x.
Complex pixel shader operations would take a major performance hit on G7x e.g. UT3, Fold@Home.

If Sony wants an off-the-self part with fewer design issues, they should have selected ATI's RV570/R580 GPU.

G8x
(shader)(a)(shader)(a)(shader)(a)(shader)(a)(shader)
_______(texture)__(texture)__(texture)_(texture)

Btw, Unreal Engine 3 uses deferred shading. Epic would be happy with the optimisation results.

ATI GPUs seems to like deferred shading....
Complex pixel shading performance is not a strong point for G70. UT3’s deferred shading shows G70’s weakness.

You may already know that "Mass Effect" game also uses Unreal Engine 3.

In reference to http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3128&p=4
Xenos's GearsOfWar 1280x720p and FPS results didn't quite match up with Radeon X1950 Pro's UT3 results.... Just something to think about....

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@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: MikeB wrote: Quote: According to VGChartz Italy has joined the list of countries where the PS3 has already overtaken total XBox 360 sales (the PS2 still outsold the PS3 though), not bad considering the 1 year and 5 months headstart for the 360! Quote: For various smaller European countries the PS3 has outsold the total 360 install base, though we only have reliable data for some larger countries, Portugal, Spain and Italy are backed up by GfK data, of the larger European countries next up will likely be Germany early January 2008, here PS3 games are already significantly outperforming 360 sales. Correction, according to VGChartz total PS3 sales in Germany has overtaken the 360 install base already! Next up may be France, VGChartz has undertracked PS3 sales for the country (but unknown by how much), stay tuned....

Both PS3 and X360's worldwide estimated growth rate are about the same.

http://vgchartz.com/hwcomps.php?cons1=Wii®1=All&cons2=PS3®2=All&cons3=X360®3=All&start=39075&end=39439&weekly=1

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Dec-2007 at 07:14 AM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

IMO for this generation it's especially important the PS3 sells well, this to make sure 3rd party developers truly start to tap into the PS3's unique and powerful feature set (Blu-Ray space, 7.1 audio, SPE perfomance, Sixaxis usage were it can enhance the gameplay, etc). The early Atari ST to Amiga ports offered little to write home about, sometimes the ports were worse depite the better gaming potential.

For PS3, they are more likely to use the SPUs to fix G70's issues i.e. hierarchical Z logic, Early Z/stencil rejection, hardware tessellator (DX10.1), vertex, geometry and pixel shaders.

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@Samwel

Dual format players are very cool. Though some early models appear unable to do HDi functionality, not sure about BDj. Sorry I skipped to the conclusion, with Christmas and all. They gave the knod to the LG over the Sony for Blu-Ray. Even if not by much it's indeed impressive to see a dual format player perform comparably.

As for industry impact? I think the dual format players are neutral and don't favor any camp. There's definitely good, and bad, movies on both formats right now I wouldn't want to be without either.

@BrianK

Quote:

Sony's recent prediction is a near 3M additional console sales in 10 weeks. What do you see in Jan and Feb that may push these levels?

Based on VGChartz' data it seems the PS3 userbase will be about 9 million at the end of this year, worldwide hardware sales seems to have been higher for the PS3 than for the 360 (week which ended the 22nd of December). Worldwide PS2 hardware sales were also higher than for the 360 for this week according to VGChartz!

Assuming 9 million in sales, this leaves 2 million console sales for more than 12 weeks worth of sales. We will have to wait and see, like I pointed out there surely are some good PS3 games to keep an eye out for during this period.

Merry christmas!

Last edited by MikeB on 28-Dec-2007 at 11:56 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Based on VGChartz' data it seems the PS3 userbase will be about 9 million at the end of this year,

Yes it does if all good things happen. This week there's ~2 days before Christmas. After Christmas sales likely slip the #s from the week before. I don't think we'll see the PS3 hitting 650K this week as it did last. Therefore, I think we'll see the PS3 end up just short of 9M at the end of 2007.

Quote:

Assuming 9 million in sales, this leaves 2 million console sales for more than 12 weeks worth of sales

Should be do able Sony hit just under 1.5M in the same timeframe without the cutback $400 model.

Did you see the Wii? It appears by year end it'll beat our PS3s by nearly 10M consoles.

Here an interesting video scratching the surface of what said in the past with regard to vitual reality enhanced games potential for consoles:

Wii-related headtracking demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Attention all, I am about to say something postive about the PS3

@MikeB
Quote:

MikeB wrote: Here an interesting video scratching the surface of what said in the past with regard to vitual reality enhanced games potential for consoles: Wii-related headtracking demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

Actually Mike, I see more potential for something like this in the PS3. The Wii doesn't have the horsepower to make an immersive game that has good graphics, good controls, online play and real-time head-tracking all in one game.

Since the PS3 also has blue-tooth, it's simple to release another peripheral, possibly something to compliment the EyeToy and achieve this result in a game.

Short of that, only the PC market could make use of it, but the peripheral cost is a bit high for PC users who are happy with keyboard and mouse controls. Console users don't seem to mind peripherals.

Last edited by Lou on 27-Dec-2007 at 12:42 PM.

From Kotaku:
Quote:

1) Mario Party DS (DS)- 330,000 / 1,156,000 2) Final Fantasy IV (DS) - 288,000 / NEW 3) Wii Fit (Wii) - 214,000 / 749,000 4) Super Mario Galaxy (Wii) - 114,000 / 664,000 5) Naruto: Shippuuden N-Ultimate Accelerator 2 (PS2) - 109,000 / NEW 6) Mario and Sonic at the Olympic Games (Wii) - 105,000 / 317,000 7) Dragon Quest IV (DS) - 94,000 / 963,000 8) Doraemon Baseball: Dramatic Stadium (DS) - 85,000 / NEW 9) Wii Sports (Wii) - 84,000 / 2,425,000 10) Prof. Layton and Pandora's Box (DS) - 83,000 / 527,000 11) Wii Play (Wii) 12) Mario Party 8 (Wii) 13) Taiko Drum Master (DS) 14) Pokémon Mysterious Dungeon: Time Expedition Party (DS) 15) Fast Card Battle: Card Hero (DS) 16) Mario Kart DS (DS) 17) Pokémon Mysterious Dungeon: Shadow Expedition Party (DS) 18) Powerful Pro-kun Pocket 10 (DS) 19) Jikkyou Powerful Pro Baseball 14 (PS2) 20) Tamagotchi no Puchi-Puchi Omisecchi: Thanks Everybody! (DS) 21) New Super Mario Bros. (DS) 22) Kirarin Revolution: Make and Show at the Kime-Kira Stage (DS) 23) World Soccer Winning Eleven 2008 (PS2) 24) Higurashi Matsuri (PS2) 25) Animal Crossing Wild World (DS) 26) Dinosaur King: The Seven Fragments (DS) 27) Wario Ware Smooth Moves (Wii) 28) Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (PS3) 29) Mega Man Star Force 2: Berserk × Dinosaur (DS) 30) Mega Man Star Force 2: Berserk × Shinobi (DS) The 30 top holiday games and there's only one for the PS3, and none for the 360. Not hard to tell which way Japan's bread is buttered.

WiiFit and Super Mario Galaxy continue to close in on 1 million in sales... DS software dominates all, followed by Wii software.

Oh, I finally heard...from an adult...why Mario Party games sell well. My own cousin, a non-Wii owner but owns a 360, told me that they use Mario Party for drinking games... Who knew?

Hardware:
DS: 319,000
Wii: 264,000
PSP: 162,000
PS3: 51,000
PS2: 24,000
Xbox 360: 8,100

Last edited by Lou on 27-Dec-2007 at 03:46 PM.

US DVD EMPIRE Tracking HD vs Blu sales.

HD = Blu sales for Harry Potter.

@Lou

"Actually Mike, I see more potential for something like this in the PS3. The Wii doesn't have the horsepower to make an immersive game that has good graphics, good controls, online play and real-time head-tracking all in one game."

Who knows.. you don't. :P

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: Attention all, I am about to say something postive about the PS3 @MikeB Quote: MikeB wrote: Here an interesting video scratching the surface of what said in the past with regard to vitual reality enhanced games potential for consoles: Wii-related headtracking demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw Actually Mike, I see more potential for something like this in the PS3. The Wii doesn't have the horsepower to make an immersive game that has good graphics, good controls, online play and real-time head-tracking all in one game.

Well this is my first post from my Wii!!

Anyway, from what I read on Slashdot when the Wii head tracking video came out it really wouldn't need extra horsepower as far as the tracking is concerned. But if you you mean underpowered overall then, yeah, compared with Ps3 & 360 sure.
As someone who waited 3 days & 2 freezing nights in front of a Bestbuy for a Ps3 though ( I have the youtube videos to prove it ) The Wii kicks butt so far.

Last edited by AmigaHeretic on 28-Dec-2007 at 07:43 AM.

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I have bought Snakeball from the PSN store, we think the game is a lots of fun, takes the snake concept to new levels, great disco tunes and disco lights, good multiplayer fun.

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote: @Lou Quote: Lou wrote: Attention all, I am about to say something postive about the PS3 @MikeB Actually Mike, I see more potential for something like this in the PS3. The Wii doesn't have the horsepower to make an immersive game that has good graphics, good controls, online play and real-time head-tracking all in one game. Well this is my first post from my Wii!! Anyway, from what I read on Slashdot when the Wii head tracking video came out it really wouldn't need extra horsepower as far as the tracking is concerned. But if you you mean underpowered overall then, yeah, compared with Ps3 & 360 sure. As someone who waited 3 days & 2 freezing nights in front of a Bestbuy for a Ps3 though ( I have the youtube videos to prove it ) The Wii kicks butt so far.

I've camped out 3 times for Wii's and got them each time, plus I had one pre-ordered at launch and paid some friends 50, 50 and 75 dollars to camp and get Wii's for me...so you don't have to tell me about camping... ;) (eBay FTW)
There is a Nintendo patent on similar functionality to this head tracking but it related directly to the position of the Wii remote from the screen to change the perspective. The video Mike linked is backwards in a sense from how it can work even now. Just invert the math and make the sensor bar the stationary point and the Wii remote the "head".

I could see this used in FPS games to lean around a corner...
Most Wii games don't use the 3D positional data of the remote...they use it's pointing on the screen and generic (shake or stab) motion or just tilt.

Developers have been fairly lazy on the Wii, though Medal of Honor:Heroes 2 is quite good...and I don't really care for FPS games too too much.

Last edited by Lou on 28-Dec-2007 at 03:11 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 28-Dec-2007 at 03:10 PM.

@MikeB

Great Disco tunes again? If I remember this was one of the things you really liked about Rachet and Clank.

The 360 lets you stream media from itself, or an iPod, or a PC during any game. You'd love all the 360 games because you could play disco continually on every game. Break out that ABBA and A-Teens.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: I've provided you the evidence that you falsly accused me. I'm open to your forthcoming apology concerning your false accusation.

Sorry Brian, I'm not convinced. I don't say sorry when I don't mean it.

Quote:

Quote: I also have the suspicion you didn't do much research before I posted. At one point you even don't seem to care whether it is shipped or sold I didn't care cuz the thread had moved on at that time and I didn't want to relive it. You were insistent so I decided to provide you the evidence. Your suspicions by now should be dead.

I was insistent about the shipped vs. sold? That's another false accusation Brian!

This is what I said:
Quote:

I also see in the media that Sony is talking shipped, not sold. I haven't seen the interview, but usually Sony talks shipped. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You reply but only quote "I also see in the media that Sony is talking shipped,"
You:
Quote:

If that's the case then no problem. Sony simply overfills the sales channel.

I would say at this point you could have replied with a link to the interview. This is the reason I'm not saying sorry. You didn't convince me here.

I moved on to your negative comment concerning the "overfilled" pipeline and added this:
Quote:

That's your assumption.

I would say it's clear what that referred to. Not your first line, but your second line. You however reply:
Quote:

Perhaps my point wasn't clear. Sony is either talking about consoles sold or consoles shipped. You mentioned the thought they meant shipped not sold. To acheive consoles sold of 3M+ in 3 months is harder then acheiving consoles shipped of 3M+ in 3 months. In the first case they have to have 3M+ people buying the consoles. In the later case they simply need to manufacture 3M+ consoles.

So who was the one insistent on the shipped vs. sold?

Quote:

Quote: The part in bold only refers to Tretton, not Hirai! I have said this before Brian, learn to read... You included a link from the first article. But, here's the link from the 2nd article 'Worldwide sales of Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3 are expected to reach 11 million by the end of this fiscal year, a senior executive said in an interview published Saturday. Sony Computer Entertainment's chief executive Kazuo Hirai told the Yomiuri Shimbun newspaper he was confident of fulfilling that goal' So indeed the news reported Hirari agreeing to the goal as sold. Again with the insults? Rudenss seems to run in your veins.

Yep, and my "rudeness" really starts flowing when hypocrite people are around.
Again Brian, you either didn't read my post properly, or you didn't read the article correctly that you provided to back up your claim that Hirai said "sold" (not shipped).

I thought we "agreed" that when an article talks "sold" and doesn't specify it any further, it can still mean "shipped", right? I quoted from the article that you provided when you were telling me Hirai said "sold" (as in sold to consumer).

Quote:

BTW I can't waste your time. I have no control of your time only you do. If this is wasting your time to a point you have to blame others for your behavior may I suggest that you take responsibility to find an outlet for yourself that doesn't waste your time.

Sure, in the end I decide if I respond or not. But when you give me a link to provide proof, I expect to find that proof. When it doesn't, you didn't do your homework and I would say you have waisted my time.

I don't blame others for my behaviour, other than pointing out mistakes of others.

Quote:

Quote: I saw on the internet, it wasn't clear if it was shipped or sold. Okay. But, remember you were very very certain that I was oooh so wrong a hypocrite and unresearched right? But, your point said sold=shipped and that was that.

Just look at the history I provided earlier in this post. Sure "we" have a history, but it looks like you take all my statements as a direct attack on you and it looks like you no longer properly read my posts. Sure I accused you of a couple of things, but not to the extent as you are portraying here.

Quote:

You instead decided to be rude calling names and making accusations. Your approach is to assault others to 'win' some arguement by ensuring discussion never takes place. Had you been open inquiring how I could be so confident instead of insulting these posts would have had a completely different tone. I'm doing what I can to not step down into the insult gutter, I apologize for any comment that may have been insulting to you. I'm open to your apologizes for your insulting behavior.

I don't think I need to apologize here. I inquired, but you failed to read it. Sure I'm lacing my posts by pointing out your hypocrisy, but I would say I'm not assaulting you to win some argument. And I would say I am the one that sticks to the discussion.

If you still think I'm assaulting you, I think you can be accused of the same regarding Mike. And to be really honest, that was one of my main objectives. So when you apologize to Mike, I'll apologize to you.

Quote:

Quote: Hmmm, this doesn't match your statement that Sony hasn't shown the potential of the PS3. Not really consistent Brian Of course it does. As MikeB has posed neither Lair nor Uncharted use 100% of the console. Thus, in turn there's lots of potential out there we just haven't seen. The only way this statement of yours would be correct is IF Lair was as good as it gets. I think the PS3 games can use more of the console and be better and therefore the PS3 hasn't shown us yet it's full potential.

Come on Brian, still trying to disagree with me at all cost? When we talk showing potential, that doesn't mean you have seen something that pushes the PS3 to 100%. Because in that case it's no longer potential, but actual max performance.

Quote:

The 360 did have better hardware and developer support from Microsoft then PS3 had from Sony. If I recall correctly we even saw a couple of games slipped from launch with the developers claiming Sony didn't have the right tools ready for them in time. We have seen Sony step up to the plate and help port UT3 and improve their tools. Times do change! The PS3 will have the tools it was lacking out of the chute, these have improved and will further improve. Porting UT3 was good as their middle-ware has been bought by many other developers. In turn this will make those other developer games more likely and easier to port to the PS3.

Hmmm Brian, you are making it more and more complicated for yourself here. Assuming adding a bigger HD, HDMI, die-size, etc. doesn't count in this discussion as better hardware, we can say the hardware hasn't changed. So we can leave that out of the discussion.

Now that the PS3 has been able to match the 360 with some 3rd party titles, it looks like M$ has been sleeping. How else is this situation possible when you say the 360 has the better hardware? It doesn't add up Brian. Or are you trying to tell me those 3rd parties stopped tweaking their 360 engines?

If I remember correctly you were trying to tell me 3rd parties were probably not willing to invest much time/money into getting their PS3 engines as fast as they can, as the potential sales for the 360 are higher. From that point of view Sony must have done tremendous dev support. Thumbs up for Sony.

@BrianK

Quote:

Great Disco tunes again? If I remember this was one of the things you really liked about Rachet and Clank.

Yes, one of many aspects from the game. I think often custom music isn't as good as in-game music (more suiting, Snakeball looks very disco, I wouldn't like disco in a creepy game). You should play games like Uncharted, the music changes based on events and in Uncharted this certainly adds to the great atmosphere!