@MikeB

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I think that's unlikely, but we'll see. I would applaud a Blu-Ray drive becoming standard for gaming as well as movies on a future 360 (would be great of movie studios and gaming potential). But there are some considerations, for one people may not like to upgrade their existing 360s with an external Blu-Ray drive, inhibiting the gaming potential.

The only reason to add BR to the 360 is for movies. If Microsoft sticks to DVD only for games that's entirely feasible. Most PS3 games will fit onto a DVD. I believe even the incredible 40/40 rated MGS4 does IF one takes out the 90 minutes of FMV, FMV isn't gaming. A disc swap if planned right isn't horrid. I have to pee every couple of hours so changing 1 DVD every 20 isn't the huge ordeal that the sloths want you to believe.

@Lou

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hat's just it, how do you released a 'beta' to the world? They are talking heat for the 'promise' of HOME... I also see HOME as more overhead to the system which only has 256MB of main RAM.

The RSX and Cell both have access to both types of RAM, for the Cell it just makes far more sense to stick to the much faster XDR, 256 MB is huge for a console CPU. Using the XDR as video RAM makes sense for the RSX if needed (upping memory size or for needing more bandwidth).

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Launching a disc-based game from HOME then returning to HOME, I just don't see that as seemless as they make it seem...

There will be some loading within home (which can be minimalized by smart streaming):

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ore7INF4Q

But still a great feature IMO, look here for an impression of how it should work:

http://www.ps3blog.co.za/2008/05/14/home-game-launching-video/

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HOME as THE native interface...then things become more realistic...

I think it should remain optional, but maybe that's something to look into for the PS4.

@BrianK

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. Most PS3 games will fit onto a DVD. I believe even the incredible 40/40 rated MGS4 does IF one takes out the 90 minutes of FMV, FMV isn't gaming.

The ending cutscene is very long, but according to Konami well less than 90 minutes. And the ending is probably rendered in realtime (maybe interactive like other cutscenes), not FMV AFAIK.

No many PS3 games wouldn't fit on DVD without significant sacrifices.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: . Most PS3 games will fit onto a DVD. I believe even the incredible 40/40 rated MGS4 does IF one takes out the 90 minutes of FMV, FMV isn't gaming. The ending cutscene is very long, but according to Konami well less than 90 minutes. And the ending is probably rendered in realtime (maybe interactive like other cutscenes), not FMV AFAIK. No many PS3 games wouldn't fit on DVD without significant sacrifices.

Konami has stated that there is more than one 90 minute cutscene...
There is a percentage of gamers that dislikes long cut-scenes...

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: hat's just it, how do you released a 'beta' to the world? They are talking heat for the 'promise' of HOME... I also see HOME as more overhead to the system which only has 256MB of main RAM. The RSX and Cell both have access to both types of RAM, for the Cell it just makes far more sense to stick to the much faster XDR, 256 MB is huge for a console CPU. Using the XDR as video RAM makes sense for the RSX if needed (upping memory size or for needing more bandwidth).

sending memory back to main ram from RSX is much much slower than to RSX from Cell/main ram... Regardless it seems HOME requires some decent resources...more RAM in both places would allow more seamless integration...

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Quote: HOME as THE native interface...then things become more realistic... I think it should remain optional, but maybe that's something to look into for the PS4.

That would be like buying a Corvette with a 4-cylinder leaving the V8 as the option. If HOME is to be the PS3 killer app, then it should become the main interface/OS...

@Lou

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Konami has stated that there is more than one 90 minute cutscene... There is a percentage of gamers that dislikes long cut-scenes...

Yes in total sure, there's a big story to be told. GTA IV sports a lot of realtime non-interactive cutscenes as well, provides the game with much more depth. But especially the ending sequence of MGS4 is long. If you don't want to watch it..... (I guess you will want to once you finished the game, as the story is said to be top notch just like the gameplay)

@Lou

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sending memory back to main ram from RSX is much much slower than to RSX from Cell/main ram...

It makes sense for the RSX to use the XDR if needed. GPU related data such as high quality textures normally take up the bulk of RAM, that's why first and second party devs put a lot of effort into streaming various sorts of data but especially textures, executable code is usually tiny in comparison.

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That would be like buying a Corvette with a 4-cylinder leaving the V8 as the option. If HOME is to be the PS3 killer app, then it should become the main interface/OS...

I think it should be there for people who prefer this approach (makes things a lot more personal and provides a much more open world experience). But for some users within the household the XMB may well be sufficient, game launching, communication, media files handling, etc can all be done well with just the XMB (which is also cool and customizable, with custom sounds, backdrops and icons)

So, open world with virtual PSP with XMB and just XMB both optional. Of course Playstation Home could provide many unique features unavailable (impossible) from just within a XMB environment.

Last edited by MikeB on 06-Jun-2008 at 08:29 PM.

@MikeB

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Of course Playstation Home could provide many unique features unavailable (impossible) from just within a XMB environment.

These so called impossible features are ?? Protein folding entertainment and ???

@BrianK

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These so called impossible features are ?? Protein folding entertainment and ???

Home is a full 3D realtime interactive virtual environment with endless oppertunities, just watch the many videos to get an idea. Think about what would be possible to achieve in a modern 3D GTA game vs what would be possible to achieve in a 2D game engine like GTA 1.

@MikeB

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Home is a full 3D realtime interactive virtual environment with endless oppertunities, just watch the many videos to get an idea. Think about what would be possible to achieve in a modern 3D GTA game vs what would be possible to achieve in a 2D game engine like GTA 1

Okay and why do you not believe the 360 which can do GTA couldn't do a 3D realtime interactive virtual environment?

@BrianK

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Okay and why do you not believe the 360 which can do GTA couldn't do a 3D realtime interactive virtual environment?

I didn't say that, I compared with the XMB.

Some 360 obstacles would be no default harddrive and paid subsciption based online multiplayer. If this be dealt with I don't doubt the 360 could provide a similar experience technically.

But Playstation Home has been under development for many years by Sony, there are no indications Microsoft is planning on providing a similar experience on the 360.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jun-2008 at 12:16 AM.

Just tested the Grid demo on my xbox 360 after trying the ps3 version earlier.. It looks and runs so much better on the xbox! The ps3 version had some vsync issues and did not have the same level of anti alias, while the xbox 360 version ran 99% smooth and i only saw vsync drop just once or twice during a race.

Mike: The ps3 has been out for quite some time now, so why is the xbox 360 still leading when it comes to performance and graphics in games? I was also suprised by how much better Grid ran compared to Dirt, considering it is based on the same engine..

@Tomas

Pretty much summs it up nicely:

http://www.developmag.com/interviews/174/QA-Insomniacs-Mike-Acton
http://www.developmag.com/interviews/175/QA-Insomniacs-Mike-Acton-Part-2

Development cycles have increased, still quite a few yet unreleased games like Tomb Raider Underworld are lead on the 360 due to that platform's one year headstart. Assets and game engine wise such games are much better optimised for the 360 hardware specifications and the PS3 although a lot more powerful is also a lot different.

In the future it's likely game engine development for most multi-platform games will be lead on the PS3 and then ported to the 360, as some required techniques are also beneficial for that platform to a lesser extend.

IMO judge the exclusives, not suboptimal 360 to PS3 ports. The technically most impressive games are already on the PS3, with technology advancements great technical leaps will be made in the near future, certainly with regard to exclusives.

I don't know if GRID differs so much on both platforms, I only played the demo for about a minute, didn't interest me at all and deleted the demo.

@MikeB
Both versions looks good, but the xbox 360 version is definitely a little better. But what i recall is that codemasters claimed that the engine was going to be optimized for the ps3, so why does it still run better on the xbox 360?

@Tomas

Codemasters are using the SPUs (through some middleware I believe).

With regard to the PS3 demo they state:

"there are some extra performance improvements between the demo and release on free PS3 as we were tuning right to the last minute. This should be apparent in our forthcoming reviews."

Regarding Anti-Aliasing, on the PS3 and 360 this is handled differently. Without going into details, at lower resolutions the 360 has a potential framerate advantage if AA is applied using a legacy style game engine.

At higher resolutions the advantage of its approach turns into a potential distadvantage. Two ways to better handle AA on the PS3 than on the 360 are to take fillrate related workload off the RSX by using the SPUs or implement different approaches for applying AA using the SPUs instead of the RSX. Both approaches require redesign.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jun-2008 at 04:54 PM.

Analysts predict troubled times ahead for the XBox 360 sales wise:
http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=147092

Personally I think 2008 will still be a fine year for the 360 due to millions of XBox owners who still haven't upgraded towards the 360 in both Europe and North America and some high profile games like Fable 2, Gears of War 2 and Star Wars coming up this year. 2009 is when I think the trouble will truly start to manifest this due to increased competition with the PS3, no more popular XBox games left to see 360 sequels and market saturation with regard to XBox fans upgrading towards the 360.

Some recent analyst projections:

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jun-2008 at 02:11 PM.

@MikeB
Those stats are purely speculation.. I personally find it very hard to believe that the Wii will sell that well in the future. I do however think that the ps3 will be the winner in the end, even though i think that the xbox 360 is superior when it comes to games.
I think the PS3 will do well simply because of the success of the PS1 and PS2. The Xbox is entirely new on the market compared to nintendo and the sony playstation.
I dont think the sales difference will be as dramatic as these bars show though..

Last edited by Tomas on 08-Jun-2008 at 02:38 PM.

@Tomas

I think the Wii will stay a family console with continued preference amongst young kids (or their parents with regard to the type of game/console they wish to see their kids playing) and females. HDTV penetration, desire for multimedia features and more impressive games I think will slow Wii sales over time, but it's current performance remains mindboggling.

I think the PS3 will also be a family console from a broader perspective (entertainment in general), but will be mainly preferred by teenage and adult males worldwide.

I think the 360 will mainly see continued succes amongst English languaged teenagers. Considering this appeal is far more limited, I think the console will end up being a distant third. Not reaching a 40 million install base.

The PS3 and Wii due to lack in overlap can IMO happily co-exist. Microsoft is trying to mimic its competitors, but I think the competitors both have a stronger product as well as a better more suitable reputation (Nintendo => cartoon-like cute and casual games, Sony Music, Video and hardiore epic gaming and casual gaming reputation)

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jun-2008 at 02:58 PM.

@MikeB

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Some 360 obstacles would be no default harddrive and paid subsciption based online multiplayer

3D Interface for XMB on the 360 would likely require a harddrive, which is optional on this console, so not all could enjoy. (Market analysis on harddrive ownership is 80-90% of all 360s sold) However, it is the online interface and a harddrive is pretty much a requirement online if one wants any significant download (games, movies, TV) experience. So the users who'd need it would in all likelihood have it. As for paid multiplayer -- this doesn't effect the 3D interface, whatever 3D tools to go into the multiplayer gaming would still be there. It does effect a $ and user need but not the 3D interface itself.


Troubled times ahead for the 360? There are 2 problems I see with the 360. (1) Blu-Ray -- easily fixed by inclusion within the unit. (2) Market name influence -- Sony, even with their own market overtake attempts, is loved in Europe. Microsoft, not so much. I think if Microsoft shipped the PS3 and Sony the 360 we'd probably see Sony pulling ahead still. This is a longer term problem which this gen there is unlikely a fix for. Next gen, I expect Microsoft to make even better in roads in Europe.

Microsoft, IMO, should talk to Nintendo. Support the DS on the 360 with interactivity of games. I'd think this would be good for Nintendo as they'd want to sell more DS games. I believe the DS has now outsold the PS2 for most unit sales of a game machine. Including company's ability to bring a DS game to the 360 would further help Nintendo's DS profits along with add another aspect of gaming to the 360.

Last edited by BrianK on 08-Jun-2008 at 03:09 PM.

@BrianK

360 games developers are required to make games which can still be run on the 360 without the need of a harddrive, I think this and the requirement to pay to use this service would go against market potential and there wouldn't be much interest amongst developers to support this.

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Market name influence -- Sony, even with their own market overtake attempts, is loved in Europe. Microsoft, not so much. I think if Microsoft shipped the PS3 and Sony the 360 we'd probably see Sony pulling ahead still.

Yes, but the Sony brand earned its reputation for its good diverse Sony produced Playstation games library and consumer electronics and entertainment expertise in general. Microsoft earned its bad reputation from things such as Windows issues, market manipulation through monopolies, support issues and product quality issues.

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Microsoft, IMO, should talk to Nintendo. Support the DS on the 360 with interactivity of games.

I think Nintendo should talk to Sony, would be cool if a Wii follow-up would be based on slimline PS3 technology. Nintendo games compatible with Playstation, Playstation titles compatible with Nintendo.

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I believe the DS has now outsold the PS2 for most unit sales of a game machine.

No the PS2 stands above 130 million, the DS stands at about 75 million. But lifecycle sales will probably be close between the two platforms.