With PS3 owners buying more software than XBox 360 owners already and the outlook that the PS3 will soon overtake the XBox 360 worldwide installbase more developers are switching to PS3 lead software development:

Richard Ham: There’s been a learning curve, but we feel it’s worth it in the end,” he said. “Multi-core development is the future. It’s not impossible to imagine PCs with 24 cores in them within the next few years, so we figure, why not get going with it now?”

This is very positive for both 360 and PS3 gamers if you take into account past comments like:

A developer which lead a project on the XBox 360:

"Secondly, the matters of multithreading policies, the whole job queue architecture, encapsulation of jobs and their corresponding data packets, etc. that work on the PS3 are indeed more than applicable of the 360/PC. And as I've mentioned before, they work better than anything and everything that Microsoft recommends (so far without exception for us)."

From this you can come to the conclusion:
- The developer thinks the development approaches Microsoft recommends, does not work [well] on the PS3.
- And the way the PS3 should be developed for makes sense in terms of performance on the PC/360 as well.

Mike Acton from a tech doc:

* It's not that complicated.
* Good data and good design works well on the SPUs (and will work well anywhere)‏
- Sometimes you can get away with bad design and bad data on other platforms
- ...for now. Bad design will not survive this generation.
*Lots of opportunities for optimization.

@MikeB

I like your view of history. If you recall the years prior to PS3 release, Sony's only profittable division was the PS2. Hence the insane investment in the PS3. The PS3 loses money hand over fist, but then the TV's started picking up steam again and now the PS3 doesn't lose so much money...finally. It's still quite the net loss. It will end a net loss when you isolate PS3 investments...a large one.

Does Sony have any successor to the PSP? The Nintendo 3DS is set to launch in Japan in October.

Sony's me-too motion controls are going to ask consumers to fork out more money. Good luck with that.

Natal's initial cost will be offset by the rumored 360 'slim'. They also lowered costs by shifting more processing to the 360's cpu.

Nintendo claims to have another trick up it's sleeve for E3.

We shall see.

@MikeB

Quote:

You don't seem to understand Sony's market

I'd argue more importantly is Ken Kutagari didn't understand Sony's market. He indicated he had new ideas for future PS consoles. Shortly after Ken was demoted from the Board of Directors. A bit later the official announcement said Ken decided to leave to pursue his dreams beyond the Playstation and network vision.

Strange the Chief Playstation architect just told us he has dreams for more Playstation architectures. Sony has subsequently announced their network vision. It all smells of a friendly parting of ways, likely pushed by Sony.

Quote:

It's interesting to note Sony is introducing more efficient PS3s sporting 40nm RSX GPUs.

Your statement here lends credit to the truth is somewhere inbetween. They were ramping up new 40nmRSX. They announced in Jan of future shortages, which happened 2 months later. Looks like manfacturing wasn't quite up to speed.

EDIT: Sony to profit on new PS3 Indication is 2009 was 1/2Billion loss for Sony gaming. They hope 2010 will be double digit million in profits.

Summer of 2008 Sony's number was about $3.3Billion in losses for the PS3. Throw in 2009 and that's $4Billion. While earning a profit, hopefully, in 2010. The PS3 still has a long road ahead to truly recoup that $4Billion and be in the black. Sony better hope the PS3 can not only recover but build the coffer for PS4 investments.

Last edited by BrianK on 13-May-2010 at 05:04 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 13-May-2010 at 05:02 PM.

@BrianK & Lou

The shortages at the PS3's launch was due to including the back then brandnew Blu-Ray format. This was critical for Sony's business and important for a long term future of the PS3

Regarding losses Sony could easily take it and took those losses for the greater good.

Toshiba was willing to loose a billion USD with HD DVD despite it was likely they wouldn't win. Winning the format war is worth investing billions with an eye on the future.

Recent quotes:

University of Massachusetts:

According to the physicists at UMass, the PS3's "incredibly low cost make[s] it very attractive as a scientific computing node, i.e., part of a compute cluster. In fact, it's highly plausible that the raw computing power-per-dollar that the PS3 offers is significantly higher than anything else on the market today."

The Air Force Research Laboratory regarding the PS3:

"The gaming and graphics market continues to push the state of the art and lowers the cost of High Performance Computing, FLOPS/WATTS per dollar," the Air Force Research Laboratory told Ars. "This is important for embedded HPC, our area of expertise.

Watts are coming down again this year and maybe also the pricing.

Really such statements are testiment to the great deal the PS3 is to consumers and thus kudos to Ken.

(consider those statements and remember the included Blu-Ray, Wi-Fi, Dual Shock 3 controller, etc included in the price of purchase isn't even interesting to them, they just care about the amazing performance, efficiency and flexibility of the Cell processor!)

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK & Lou The shortages at the PS3's launch was due to including the back then brandnew Blu-Ray format. This was critical for Sony's business and important for a long term future of the PS3 Regarding losses Sony could easily take it and took those losses for the greater good. Toshiba was willing to loose a billion USD with HD DVD despite it was likely they wouldn't win. Winning the format war is worth investing billions with an eye on the future. Recent quotes: University of Massachusetts: According to the physicists at UMass, the PS3's "incredibly low cost make[s] it very attractive as a scientific computing node, i.e., part of a compute cluster. In fact, it's highly plausible that the raw computing power-per-dollar that the PS3 offers is significantly higher than anything else on the market today." The Air Force Research Laboratory regarding the PS3: "The gaming and graphics market continues to push the state of the art and lowers the cost of High Performance Computing, FLOPS/WATTS per dollar," the Air Force Research Laboratory told Ars. "This is important for embedded HPC, our area of expertise. Watts are coming down again this year and maybe also the pricing. Really such statements are testiment to the great deal the PS3 is to consumers and thus kudos to Ken. (consider those statements and remember the included Blu-Ray, Wi-Fi, Dual Shock 3 controller, etc included in the price of purchase isn't even interesting to them, they just care about the amazing performance, efficiency and flexibility of the Cell processor!)

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/sony-games-division-records-USD889m-loss
And they still lose money hand over fist...with rising PS3 sales and lower PS2 sales.

No one disputes the RAW computing power of CELL. What is disputable is the ability of that RAW power to be put towards real-world gaming vs. linear scientific uses.

Having the SPU's assist with graphics processing would have been great if they then didn't have to push that over the the video RAM from main RAM and that introduces an inherent latency that the 360 doesn't have with its unified memory.

Why must we repeat the same gurgle over and over?
PS3 has BLUUUUUUUUUUU RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY
Sony loses money.
Cross-platform games look better on the 360.
Wii continues to outsell both.

@MikeB

Quote:

Regarding losses Sony could easily take it and took those losses for the greater good.

There's little 'greater good' here. Sony took the losses in hopes for big profits. If you recall HD DVD not only had better interactivity it had better quality video at launch. If it wasn't for the competition BluRay wouldn't have driven to the next level.

You act like the PS3 is the only console doing this. Not true. The Airforce bought more then 1,500 PS3s. It's not as if the US Military wasn't interested in the 360. Microsoft turns down US Army contract for 360 Similar to the Cell the 360's GPU has been used for medical research. 360 emulates human heart Also,do note those organizations run Linux on the PS3 to accomplish their goals. Imagine the losses and damage if someone hooks them to the internet and their Linux ability is wiped out. YIKES!

The 360 CPU was not meant for general purpose uses, the Cell was. IBM and Toshiba? The Cell's all but dead with them. If the Cell is survive at this point it looks to be a special purpose CPU for the PS4 if Sony determines that's the right direction.

The Cell was a great idea. It's now clear the Cell is not the next wave of processing. That goes to the multiple core builds more similar to the 360's CPU.

Quote:

Really such statements are testiment to the great deal the PS3 is to consumers and thus kudos to Ken.

A $4Billion loss to Sony and the Cell not being the next gen architecture are Ken's legacy at this point.

This has turned into a PS3 advertising thread.

The discussion is long over, sorry, but if you want to advertise like this, please do contact DaveyD for information about a Banner ad.

From the Terms of Service:
AmigaWorld.net provides a classified advertising module which is the only place other than paid for advertising banners that adverts are permitted in. This includes promoting goods and services, links to online auctions or advertising in signatures or through avatars.



----------
Thread open again.
Do discuss, but don't bad-mouth the competitor to your favorite console. /tomazkid

Last edited by tomazkid on 13-May-2010 at 10:21 PM.
Last edited by tomazkid on 13-May-2010 at 10:20 PM.

_________________
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(No, I didn't type that with a straight face.)

Quote:

This has turned into a PS3 advertising thread.

Quote:

Do discuss, but don't bad-mouth the competitor to your favorite console.

Two interesting perspectives. Before my re-entry into this thread I thought, "Wowsers, that thread has tunred into a pure one-sided PS3/Sony bashing contest!", let's put things back into perspective.

Micheal Pachter made some interesting comments in this interview:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/being-michael-pachter-interview?page=3

"When Microsoft paid Take-Two to make GTA IV non-exclusive... In other words, GTA IV was going to be a PS3 exclusive, but Microsoft paid Rockstar and Take-Two to make it a non-exclusive, and they paid them a lot. The number I've heard, and I'm sure this is right, is $75m, and that probably includes the funding for the first DLC packs too."

Rockstar in the past admitted that they've made sacrifices to GTA IV due to technical limitations on the XBox 360.

"I really truly believe that Sony Move is the Wii HD. I really believe it. That's been my quote: I told everyone a Wii HD was coming this year, it just happens to say PS3 on the box. It is the Wii HD."

That's an interesting perspective and was my idea as well when I said I would love to see a Wii-mote like device for the PS3 at the beginning of this generation.

The PS3 with Playstation Move IMO is more than what Nintendo could have hoped for in a WiiHD at this point. I don't think they would have been able to be competitive with regard to processing power and Move does everything the Wii-mote does only far more accurate together with additional features and in high definition.

Sony of course took inspiration of the Wii as it makes sense, now developers can easily port over their Wii games as PS Move can do everything the Wii does, only better.

But it's not like they just copied Nintendo, just look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpNdkm9s8AY&feature=fvw

Sony was working on that 10 years ago!

Some fans like to claim Nintendo does everything first, at least we Amigans should know better. For pioneering using the Amiga for virtual reality gaming (including head/hand motion tracking, stereoscopic 3D and first person gaming including capture the flag / deathmatch) read futher here:

http://www.hitl.washington.edu/scivw/scivw-ftp/commercial/WIndustries/W.descrip

A small quote from the article:

"Looking at the joy-stick through the visor it appears as a gun. Extending one's arm shows a virtual arm rendered in bright pink polygons."

Wii-Fit is also similar to the Amiga Joyboard in basic principle.

Some more info on LittleBigPlanet 2:

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/abstract-features-littlebigplanet-2/100073

I'm a little dissapointed nobody has something to say about this game, it's revolutionary!

@MikeB

The most of the users here who bash Sony, as you put it, are PS3 owners.
Sony is losing its fold.
Nintendo hasn't done enough for the hardcore gamer.
MS is trying to be more casual to continue to expand it's user base.

Oh and I bought Moster Hunter 3:Tri and I love it. A hardcore game on the Wii for sure.

@Lou

Quote:

Sony is losing its fold. Nintendo hasn't done enough for the hardcore gamer. MS is trying to be more casual to continue to expand it's user base.

Sony is trying to expand its userbase with Playstation Move (amongst others) as well. Make it a good platform to port over HD versions of Wii titles but with the option of allowing more accuracy. They are trying to win over both casual and hardcore gamers.

Ape Escape 4 will be released for Playstation move this year and is said to be very good. Potentially a very nice game for the whole family just like games such as LittleBigPlanet 2 and Modnation racers.

@Lou

To be perfectly honest... I have a Wii and I would take either the XBox360 or the PS3 over it, the vast majority of games are gimmicky crap (with some shining exceptions). I do not see Sony's and MS' move towards that arena as positive in any way, shape or form, they will probably expand their markets but gaming will be diluted with lots of shovelware that is currently at least restricted to mostly one platform.

Last edited by Zardoz on 14-May-2010 at 02:24 PM.

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@Zardoz

Quote:

Zardoz wrote: @Lou To be perfectly honest... I have a Wii and I would take either the XBox360 or the PS3 over it, the vast majority of games are gimmicky crap (with some shining exceptions). I do not see Sony's and MS' move towards that arena as positive in any way, shape or form, they will probably expand their markets but gaming will be diluted with lots of shovelware that is currently at least restricted to mostly one platform.

I'm finding Monster Hunter 3:Tri to be to World of Warcraft of consoles. The game is straight crack!

@Lou

Monter Hunter is a very popular series, sadly it greatly underperformed compared to expectations just like almost all hardcore targeted 3rd party efforts on the Wii. It was already in the bargain bins during the month of release in Japan.

In the past Streetfighter 2 was probably the biggest 3rd party release on the Snes. The series isn't anymore, (Super) Streetfighter IV can only be bought for the 360/PS3 and the PS3 version is recommended mainly due to the far inferior D-Pad on the 360, also the analog stick on the PS3 is more precise (10-bit precision for the DS3 and 8-bit for the 360 controller).

@MikeB

What exactly is "hardcore"? I get the impression its something to be ashamed of if you like Wii Fit, Wii Tennis or the Harry Potter series or something that is just, erm, a normal game that people who aren't that bothered about blood and gore and beating the living cr*p out of computer images to get their jollies play.

Am I right?

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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Thats why I keep logs.

@DaveP

No, more traditional franchices. Party games are considered more casual.

Hardcore games are usually considered games such as Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear Solid, Streetfighter, FPS games, RPGs, etc.

Popular 3rd party casual games on the Wii are Carnaval games, Cooking Mama, Just Dance, Deca Sports, Game Party, etc for example and such games perform very well on the Wii.

Wii Sports and Wii Fit are first party efforts, but also aren't considered hardcore games.

The Wii is a market place where "My Fitness Coach" greatly outsells "Call of Duty: World at War". The top 10 Wii games is almost entirely dominated by first party games, the first 9 spots go to Nintendo only at number 10 is "Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games". The platform is dominated by kids and relatively popular with women of all ages too, nothing to be ashamed of but not the best market to see games releases which are more targeted at adult males such as me.

If you consider the Wii has the lowest attach ratio per console and the bulk of these games are Nintendo's first party games and the remaining percentage is dominated by 3rd party kids and casual games, that leaves very little remaining sales for developers who publish more hardcore targeted games.

Hardcore gaming isn't a term I invented, it's a term used very commonly on the internet to quickly and easily determine a certain style of gameplay/games (no deep stories, not too demanding gameplay, nothing really state-of-art from development perspective, etc).

Last edited by MikeB on 15-May-2010 at 11:22 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 15-May-2010 at 11:20 AM.

@DaveP

And for the record I like party games when the time is right for it. Not very often for me, but when travelling in the train I love to play some party games on my Nintendo DS.

LittleBigPlanet appeals both to hardcore and casual gamers I think. It's fun to play the game if some friends come over, just like playing Singstar for example.

Microsoft announced their 3rd quarter, ending March 2010. Xbox division revenue was $1.67Billion up roughly 2%. Slighly more then 40Million Xbox 360s sold (edit this was of course since launch).

Last edited by BrianK on 15-May-2010 at 03:46 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

Having the SPU's assist with graphics processing would have been great if they then didn't have to push that over the the video RAM from main RAM and that introduces an inherent latency that the 360 doesn't have with its unified memory.

Would also help if it had a better GPU in first place. The PS3 GPU is a joke compared to even the older GPU of the XBOX 360.