@MikeB

Quote:

the PS3 has already demonstrated the console go well beyond what the 360 can do technically

I'd disagree on that. There might be 1 or 2 games that are slightly beyond but not 'well' beyond. There's the theoretical potential there, 2x the processing power claimed Sony, but nothing that's gone in any significant way over the 360.

Quote:

It's just that there's still a lot of headroom to go even further.

Sony's had 3 years and there's no games to proved this to us. When do you think we'll see something in this range? Will it be before Nintendo and Microsoft move on to the next gen?


@Hammer
Quote:

If CELL was the superior GPU why include the RSX?

I'd have to dig out the quote book but several of us recall Sony declaring the Cell will be so powerful no GPU would be needed. I guess that was one of the first missed potentials of the PS3..

Too bad had the CELL reached it's claimed potential the RSX could have been eliminated and the PS3 might be making a profit instead of canibalizing PS2 profits.

@BrianK

Quote:

Sony's had 3 years and there's no games to proved this to us. When do you think we'll see something in this range? Will it be before Nintendo and Microsoft move on to the next gen?

Well, I think plenty of proof is already out there. So IMO the PS3 has proven its additional worth much quicker than was the case with regard to the Amiga vs Atari ST regarding gaming potential.

IMO the gap is just bigger than was the case between Amiga and Atari ST technically.

Uncharted 2 gameplay leak from GDC was removed from youtube, hete an alternative link instead:

http://www.multiplayer.it/notizia.php?id=61849

@ErikBauer

Use http://www.teknoconsolas.es/blog/waninkoko/firmware-updater-40 to update the channels and firmware without any of the blocks. :)

@Lou

Thanx for the link... but I'm always doubious about hacking the IOS... are these things sure?
I just don't want brick my Wii

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@BrianK

Quote:

I'd have to dig out the quote book but several of us recall Sony declaring the Cell will be so powerful no GPU would be needed. I guess that was one of the first missed potentials of the PS3..

Atm, CELL duplicated 3DLab’s WildCat VPU's mistakes.

CELL GPU might work during the times of PS2, but you have specialized ("one trick pony") corporations designing and building specialized array co-processors. Since Nov 2006, there are more than 100 million CUDA processors delivered.

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@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Hammer Although it's youtube CAM footage, Uncharted 2 like Uncharted 1 will have FP16 HDR and AA (no high definition 360 game has that), here some cool leaked Uncharted 2 footage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPRN8_bRCXA Sweet gameplay footage! Imagining this with the same quality of the screenshots we have seen makes me drool!

Where did you get "FP16 HDR and AA" Uncharted 2 PS3?

Refer to http://blogs.xnainfo.com/post/XNA-On-The-3602c-Part-2-HDR.aspx
"NAO32 is a format that gained some fame in the dev community when ex-Ninja Theory programmer Marco Salvi shared some details on the technique over on the beyond3D forums. Used in the game Heavenly Sword, it allowed for multi-sampling to be used in conjuction with HDR on a platform (PS3) whose GPU didn't support multi-sampling of floating-point surfaces (The RSX is heavily based on Nvidia G70). In this technique, color is stored in the LogLuv format usinga standard R8G8B8A8 surface. Two components are used to store X and Y at 8-bit precision, and the other two are used to store the log of luminance at 16-bit precision. Having 16 bits for luminance allows for a wide dynamic range to be stored in this format, and storing the log of the luminance allows for linear filtering in multi-sampling or texture sampling. Since he first explained it other games have also used it, such as Naughty Dog's Uncharted."

On multi-platforms, NAO32 can be use on XBox 360, PS3 and PC (Games for Windows).

HAWK PC has HDR + AA via DX9 path. I have to verify this on NVIDIA Geforce 7 card.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Mar-2009 at 09:42 PM.
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Last edited by Hammer on 28-Mar-2009 at 09:23 PM.

_________________
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10 reasons to hate each videogame system

@Hammer

The full tech sheets with regard to Uncharted 2 will probably be released after this game's release, like was the case for the original Uncharted: Drake's Fortune.

The original Uncharted used some similar approaches as compared to Heavenly Sword:

At least they used LogLuv for FP16 HDR:
http://www.naughtydog.com/corporate/press/GDC%202008/UnchartedTechGDC2008.pdf

Various PS3 games use Quincunx-AA for Anti-aliasing, I don't know if that's the case here. Quincunx-AA allows for Anti-aliasing similar to 4x AA at the cost of only 2x AA. Heavenly Sword was 4x AA plus 8x AF and has FP16 HDR, which was quite a feat for such an early title. But Uncharted looks much better and runs better as well, it is such a wonderful looking game and Naughty Dog believe:

"At Naughty Dog, we're pretty sure we should be able to see leaps between games on the PS3 that are even bigger than they were on the PS2."

Now having seen this early gameplay footage (wow @ that bus!) and those many highly detailed screenshots it seems they are going to realize these assumptions. Just plain awesome!

Last edited by MikeB on 28-Mar-2009 at 10:17 PM.

@MikeB

Notice in Page 50/58's "Logluv Buffer" box = 2x1280x720: RGBA8

On hardware that supports FP and MSAA that HDR box would either be FP10 or FP16 or FP32(DX10) not RGBA8.

Typical frame buffer formats
RGBA8 = 8 bits for Red, 8 bits for Green, 8 bits for Blue, 8 bits for alpha = 32 bits per pixel
FP10 = 10 bits for RGB components, and 2 bits for alpha = 32 bits per pixel
FP16 = 16 bits for each component = 64 bits per pixel (no support for hardware alpha blending on Xenos)
NAO32 = LogLUV conversion, 32 bits per pixel (no hardware alpha blending)

Guess which one was use for Uncharted's frame buffer format for HDR.

HAWK PC can enable HDR + AA on Mobility Radeon X700 (5 pipelined vertex shaders, 8 pipelined pixel shader 2.0b). Console’s optimisations can also benefit the PC.

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Last edited by Hammer on 28-Mar-2009 at 11:17 PM.
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@Hammer

"In this technique, color is stored in the LogLuv format usinga standard R8G8B8A8 surface. Two components are used to store X and Y at 8-bit precision, and the other two are used to store the log of luminance at 16-bit precision. Having 16 bits for luminance allows for a wide dynamic range to be stored in this format"

"we devised a scheme to use RSX pixel shading units to convert an RGB color in a CIE Luv color that only requires a common RGBA8 frame buffer (4 bytes per pixel, half the space of a FP16 pixel) to be fully stored"

@MikeB

R8G8B8A8 is an integer based buffer. RGBA8 = 8 bits for Red, 8 bits for Green, 8 bits for Blue, 8 bits for alpha = R8G8B8A8. Information is stored in 32 bits.

FP16 comment is only made for storage comparison. HDR buffer is not FP. HDR FP16 = 16 bits for each component = 64 bits per pixel.

R8G8B8A8/RGBA8 is half the space of a HDR FP16 i.e. 32bits vs 64bits respectively.

The programmers are aware of RSX’s limitations and program accordingly i.e. you don’t program against known weakness.

http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=15
Converting RGB to LogLuv in a fragment shader.

"Running this code through NVShaderPerf gives (from memory) 5 cycles for 9 instructions. When inserted at the end of a longer shader where there is plenty of room for instruction pairing, the total overhead for the LogLuv conversion will be less than this, perhaps around 3 cycles".

It's not 1 cycle but 3 cycles are good enough. Notice PS3's optimisations are filtering to Microsoft XNA dev network.

CELL SPE's Log2 functions vs the rest.

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Mar-2009 at 03:40 AM.
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Last edited by Hammer on 29-Mar-2009 at 02:36 AM.

_________________
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@Hammer

Why is this of interest? This is just geek porn surely?!

Why don't people just choose a console that has the games they want to play, features they need (HD graphics/SD graphics, DVD/Blu-Ray) and budget to fit? All this tech bumf doesn't make any difference! Killzone will never be on the XBox and downloadable content for Grand Theft Auto IV will never be available for the PS3. The Wii is for the fad chasers and casual/party gamers, but some people want a fun casual experience for the family/party situation!! I'd prefer to play on the Sony Eyetoy really unless a good Light Saber game is ever made (not holding my breath as Lucasarts are now workshy morons)!

The GPU issues on the PS3 don't change it's elegance or professional sheen, it's lack of back compatibility does!

The lack of Blu-Ray/Cell Processor does not relegate the XBox 360 to a lesser console, it's criminal failure rate does!

Get things in perspective. The figures are not as important as you think!!!! The Wii is woefully underpowered and last gen technology, but gimmicks sell- GO FIGURE!!!

Last edited by BigD on 29-Mar-2009 at 04:58 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 29-Mar-2009 at 04:57 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

The GPU issues on the PS3 don't change it's elegance or professional sheen, it's lack of back compatibility does!

Though it is nice to see someone here righting understanding, aka hammer, of someone's incorrect belief, aka MikeB, on that aspect of the console and games.

Quote:

The lack of Blu-Ray/Cell Processor does not relegate the XBox 360 to a lesser console, it's criminal failure rate does!

Hopefully the reduction of failures as the issue has been fixed in successive generations and extensions of warranties to best ensure the consumer will see the 'criminal failure' is actively being addressed.

BTW -- Yes the SD Wii is rocking the HD consoles worlds. I suspect it will remain this way as economies are down and likely into the time when the 8th generation are released. It's always good to see a competitive market. Clearly Nintendo moved from near last on last gen to first on this gen. Clearly Microsoft moved from near last if not last on last gen to a stronger position this gen. Clearly Sony has moved from 1st on last gen to last on this gen. I think it's all good for consumers.

@BrianK

Good points

I just really don't understand why Sony has made such a fuss of 'Home'. They've obviously spent years developing it but as a media hub it is just a gimmicky interface/Sims rip off where the socially inept can mess around, insult each other, or annoy people by breaking the rules in chess/pool, etc.

Nintendo are now pretty much a focused hardware company. The only software they're pushing is Wii Sports (still)!!! They just releasedMario Power Tennis and yet their still plugging Wii Sports! Consoles and computers should be valued for their range of games, but I fear the Wii is a one trick pony which will burn the software industry now pinning their hopes on it!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@ErikBauer

The trick is to make sure you have atleast 250 free blocks. There is another homebrew app that lets you backup your flashram to SD or USB flashram.

This custom updater downloads the new channels but doesn't erase IOS16 which contains the bug the pirates use. If you have the hombrew channel installed already, it still works but don't move it to SD card as it won't launch from the SD card channel.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: 10 reasons to hate each videogame system

Some good reading, thanks. And here's the direct link to the PS3 'hates':
http://www.gamesradar.com/f/10-reasons-to-hate-every-console/a-2009032717493323082/p-2

Just re-iterates what all of us, except a select few, know already:
- Home blows
- loss of exclusives
- 6 axis is nearly worthless
- costs too much, and STILL is not showing any 'technical superiority' over the competition.
- BD loads slower than 360.

On the plus side, it does include wifi, something that seems to run ~$100(!!!) on the 360.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@BrianK

Quote:

Though it is nice to see someone here righting understanding, aka hammer, of someone's incorrect belief, aka MikeB,

I don't care too much for the naming issues. Fact remains Uncharted has amongst the best HDR seen in a console game so far. (IMO best looking lighting so far goes to Killzone 2). I am sick and tired with people trying to deny the obvious.

And NAO32 as good as equals FP16 in terms of HDR, it's just a different method.

People should get over how things are done, it's all about the end results. The PS3 has the most impressive games on the market by far. Games you won't ever see on a PC, games well beyond the capabilities of rival consoles.

Just play the console and you will see.

@wegster

Some of those points are plain inaccurate technically and all the others are disputable.

- Home blows

Maybe in your opinion.

- loss of exclusives

Not really, exclusives need to be earned. For example GTA started on the Amiga and was ported to the PC, due to dominance the game just performed best on the Playstation. We aren't yet at the point of dominance in this generation of consoles.

- 6 axis is nearly worthless

Nope not for me, I love it. Not that I want all the games to use it, just the games which feels so much better this way like Flower.

- costs too much, and STILL is not showing any 'technical superiority' over the competition.

Not for the over 22 million people owning a PS3 already. If you could afford an Amiga 500 15 to 20 years ago, you probably can easily afford a PS3 today.

- BD loads slower than 360.

It's faster but different as we know for years now. Uncharted and Killzone 2 show how streaming from Blu-Ray disc is properly done.

The latest version of the GC/Wii emulator (Dolphin) lets you boost the visuals to 720p.

Watch the 2 videos in the link.
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/03/29/wii-emulator-boosts-visuals-to-720p-hd/

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Hammer Why is this of interest? This is just geek porn surely?! Why don't people just choose a console that has the games they want to play, features they need (HD graphics/SD graphics, DVD/Blu-Ray) and budget to fit? All this tech bumf doesn't make any difference! Killzone will never be on the XBox and downloadable content for Grand Theft Auto IV will never be available for the PS3. The Wii is for the fad chasers and casual/party gamers, but some people want a fun casual experience for the family/party situation!! I'd prefer to play on the Sony Eyetoy really unless a good Light Saber game is ever made (not holding my breath as Lucasarts are now workshy morons)! The GPU issues on the PS3 don't change it's elegance or professional sheen, it's lack of back compatibility does! The lack of Blu-Ray/Cell Processor does not relegate the XBox 360 to a lesser console, it's criminal failure rate does! Get things in perspective. The figures are not as important as you think!!!! The Wii is woefully underpowered and last gen technology, but gimmicks sell- GO FIGURE!!!

The trigger for my comments was MikeB's "Well the PS3 has already demonstrated the console go well beyond what the 360 can do technically."

If MikeB wants to talk technical then he should be open for the responses.

Last edited by Hammer on 30-Mar-2009 at 12:01 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)