@BigD

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BigD wrote: @BrianK Good points I just really don't understand why Sony has made such a fuss of 'Home'. They've obviously spent years developing it but as a media hub it is just a gimmicky interface/Sims rip off where the socially inept can mess around, insult each other, or annoy people by breaking the rules in chess/pool, etc. Nintendo are now pretty much a focused hardware company. The only software they're pushing is Wii Sports (still)!!! They just releasedMario Power Tennis and yet their still plugging Wii Sports! Consoles and computers should be valued for their range of games, but I fear the Wii is a one trick pony which will burn the software industry now pinning their hopes on it!

LOL!
FPS games like COD:WaW are better (aka more fun) on the Wii than the PS3 according to sales figures. One trick pony indeed. Also, Guitar Hero World Tour sold best on Wii than 360 or PS3. Even Madden is more fun on the Wii than 360/PS3 but the graphics whore will buy the HD version... Too each their own.

It seems user interfaces rule...this includes controls. Wii has best controllers followed by 360 then the (no-different-than-PS1) PS3. Gameplay>graphics. Gameplay translates to the controller. If I want pretty graphics, I turn on my PC. No need over overpriced hardware that is not upgradable and will be obselete in a couple of years...or is subject to fail.

Heck is I want prettier graphics on Wii games, I just run the Wii emulator I linked above... Now what?

http://www.edge-online.com/news/102/microsoft-linked-sale-motion-tech-firm

This will be great technology for one-player...however, the WiiMotionPlus will add extra precision to the Wii controllers and still support multiple controllers in 1 room. This technology seems like it's built for one controller, but we'll have to see...
...and we probably won't see it until "next-gen"...

@MikeB

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I don't care too much for the naming issues.

Mixing FP and INT is not just a naming issue.

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Fact remains Uncharted has amongst the best HDR seen in a console game so far. (IMO best looking lighting so far goes to Killzone 2). I am sick and tired with people trying to deny the obvious

That would be subjective. You shouldn’t mix technical and artistic. If you noticed in Uncharted's paper, the SPEs covers RSX/G7X's design issues i.e. mostly in the earlier stages in the graphics pipeline.

G7X’s designed issues was also addressed in NVIDIA's G8X.

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And NAO32 as good as equals FP16 in terms of HDR, it's just a different method.

Technically, you can't do HDR FP + MSAA on the PS3.

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Games you won't ever see on a PC,

The PC has its own exclusives. One of them is closer to real life. Gimped textures are the hallmark of console-to-PC ported games.

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games well beyond the capabilities of rival consoles.

Define this "beyond the capabilities of rival consoles".

Last edited by Hammer on 30-Mar-2009 at 01:08 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 30-Mar-2009 at 01:05 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 30-Mar-2009 at 01:05 PM.

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@BrianK

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I'd disagree on that. There might be 1 or 2 games that are slightly beyond but not 'well' beyond. There's the theoretical potential there, 2x the processing power claimed Sony, but nothing that's gone in any significant way over the 360.

Well, a texture fetch would stall RSX's pixel shader operations. One has to be careful with texture usage with RSX or NVIDIA G7X for that matter.

I do find KZ2's textures to be flat.

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http://kotaku.com/5187665/watch-someone-playing-excitebots-trick-racing

Here you can see a video of the sequel to the Ninteno Wii launch title that was more fun than Motorstorm. Yes, it's the sequel to ExciteTruck called Excitebots.

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Excitebots seems to look and play just like Excite Truck, only with some new obstacles and gimmicks thrown in to cater to the new animal robot racers. Consider this..Excite Truck was one of the better launch titles for the Nintendo Wii, and everything is better with giant animal robots. So, a great game plus a giant robot frog equals game of the year.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @wegster Some of those points are plain inaccurate technically and all the others are disputable. - Home blows Maybe in your opinion. - loss of exclusives Not really, exclusives need to be earned. For example GTA started on the Amiga and was ported to the PC, due to dominance the game just performed best on the Playstation. We aren't yet at the point of dominance in this generation of consoles. - 6 axis is nearly worthless Nope not for me, I love it. Not that I want all the games to use it, just the games which feels so much better this way like Flower. - costs too much, and STILL is not showing any 'technical superiority' over the competition. Not for the over 22 million people owning a PS3 already. If you could afford an Amiga 500 15 to 20 years ago, you probably can easily afford a PS3 today. - BD loads slower than 360. It's faster but different as we know for years now. Uncharted and Killzone 2 show how streaming from Blu-Ray disc is properly done.

as usual, Mike. I see no technical inaccuracies there. It's opinion, and it's one shared by the gaming world at large, which THE LACK OF SALES back up, as well as the number of times the above opinions are shared. Because you are a self-styled Sony defender doesn't change the lack of sales, and opinions shared by many.

Uncharted didn't have any wondrous load times over DVD, and duplicating data on BD, reducing it's capacity, or forced HD installs, doesn't exactly 'impress' anyone except for you.

You should be careful about speaking for 'all PS3 owners,' when they clearly don't all agree with you. I own two PS3s (and have bought 3 in total, one was stolen), yet share the opinions above.

And, uhh 'earn exclusives'? Oh, you mean by SALES? Sony/PS3 = FAIL, then. And they should have known better than to let their former exclusives go cross platform. Sony continues to overwhelm me in their arrogance, but they are now paying for it, literally.

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@Hammer

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Hammer wrote: @BigD Quote: BigD wrote: @Hammer Why is this of interest? This is just geek porn surely?! Why don't people just choose a console that has the games they want to play, features they need (HD graphics/SD graphics, DVD/Blu-Ray) and budget to fit? All this tech bumf doesn't make any difference! Killzone will never be on the XBox and downloadable content for Grand Theft Auto IV will never be available for the PS3. The Wii is for the fad chasers and casual/party gamers, but some people want a fun casual experience for the family/party situation!! I'd prefer to play on the Sony Eyetoy really unless a good Light Saber game is ever made (not holding my breath as Lucasarts are now workshy morons)! The GPU issues on the PS3 don't change it's elegance or professional sheen, it's lack of back compatibility does! The lack of Blu-Ray/Cell Processor does not relegate the XBox 360 to a lesser console, it's criminal failure rate does! Get things in perspective. The figures are not as important as you think!!!! The Wii is woefully underpowered and last gen technology, but gimmicks sell- GO FIGURE!!! The trigger for my comments was MikeB's "Well the PS3 has already demonstrated the console go well beyond what the 360 can do technically." If MikeB wants to talk technical then he should be open for the responses.

You don't realize by now, MIkeB seems to only pick and choose what to respond to, and when he has no response, he simply ignores it?

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

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Uncharted didn't have any wondrous load times over DVD

It's not many times faster, but it helps with regard to streaming a higher varierty of higher quality assets. Uncharted: Drake's Fortune has as good as no in-game loading.

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and duplicating data on BD, reducing it's capacity, or forced HD installs, doesn't exactly 'impress' anyone except for you.

Funny how you repeat propaganda yet claim to have the upper hand in being objective. Uncharted doesn't use much if any data duplication. This FUD was spread when a dev made an Oblivion comment, but they explained they used data duplication with the 360 version as well and that fanboys dragged the comment way out of context.

Uncharted doesn't have a mandatory harddrive install neither.

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'all PS3 owners,' when they clearly don't all agree with you. I own two PS3s (and have bought 3 in total, one was stolen), yet share the opinions above.

Yep, a great example of how the PS3 is far too expensive for you.

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And they should have known better than to let their former exclusives go cross platform.

All Sony exclusives are still exclusive to Playstation consoles, multi-plaform (like Rockstar and Capcom) devs will remain multi-platform like they have always been, unless there are great benefits for not doing so. Not much has really changed in this regard.

The biggest difference over the years IMO is really that the PC has lost a lot of momentum over the years as a gaming platform. Many games which in the past would release first for the PC, now hit the consoles first and many aren't even ported to the PC at all. IMO this is mostly due to Microsoft shifting gaming priorities from Windows towards the XBox.

@Hammer

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Technically, you can't do HDR FP + MSAA on the PS3.

Why care about its naming? The end result is what matters or not?

"As already stated many time on these boards HDR rendering can be done in many different ways.

Most games use FP16 render targets: this is the most straightforward and simple way to do it, quality is also very good, though unfortunately FP16 render targets require a lot of memory and bandwidth: every pixel needs 8 bytes in video ram to store its color data.
On the other hand colors can be represented (different color spaces) and encoded (different layout in memory) in many different ways.

We use a 4 bytes per pixel format that has the same luminance range of a default FP16 format, though it's completely scalable changing some costants in a fragment shader.
The quality is outstanding, I was never been able to reproduce a single case where FP16 had a better quality than our funky color space.

I silently ran the game over a week using FP16 on the upper half of the screen and funky colors on the lower half..and I was randomly asking question about the image quality to people in the office that were occassionaly standing close to my desk: no one has ever noticed any difference.

It's also very easy to bring FP16 on its knee on night light scenes, very low luminance (close to zero!) produced noticeable banding (but this effect can also be a function of a particular tone mapping operator), the 4 bytes per pixel version was much better, banding was still present though.

Also we don't use YUV or HSV color spaces, we went for a custom CIE Luv space."

"in fact we support a VERY broad (and accurate!) range , thousand times broader than FP10 on Xenos."

MikeB:

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Funny how you repeat propaganda yet claim to have the upper hand in being objective. Uncharted doesn't use much if any data duplication. This FUD was spread when a dev made an Oblivion comment, but they explained they used data duplication with the 360 version as well and that fanboys dragged the comment way out of context. Uncharted doesn't have a mandatory harddrive install neither.

But let me expand with I don't think data duplication is by definition a bad approach at all. For example you have a 20 GB game on a 25 GB capacity disc, why let that extra 5 GB go to waste if you could reduce seektimes further by data duplication?

If it benefits the game, nomatter how small the benefit may be. Then why not?

@MikeB

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Funny how you repeat propaganda yet claim to have the upper hand in being objective. Uncharted doesn't use much if any data duplication. This FUD was spread when a dev made an Oblivion comment, but they explained they used data duplication with the 360 version as well and that fanboys dragged the comment way out of context. Uncharted doesn't have a mandatory harddrive install neither.

Re-read the first sentence above. Put it on your mirror. Oh wait, I suspect it's already there, no?

As I stated, I don't recall Uncharted being 'acceptable wait times.' If I have time this weekend, perhaps I'll pop in in again.

If it wasn't duplicating data, then what was used that no one else magically has stumbled on (unlikely)? Data duplication and location on this disk has certainly been discussed with respect to PS3 BD and load times.

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Yep, a great example of how the PS3 is far too expensive for you.

Nor for 20 million or so? Too bad it remains so for the much larger base of Wii and 360 owners, eh?

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All Sony exclusives are still exclusive to Playstation consoles, multi-plaform (like Rockstar and Capcom) devs will remain multi-platform like they have always been, unless there are great benefits for not doing so. Not much has really changed in this regard.

Funny, not how many others see it. GTA? Fail, Sony. Others? Apparently, you only like to google for your propaganda, so here you go:
http://blog.wired.com/games/2007/07/sonys-lost-excl.html
And discussion of same, on slashdot:
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/03/2032234
(who, you'd *think* is part of Sony's target audience, no? Yet wow, many feel the same way already expressed by nearly everyone, except for you..)

http://games.kikizo.com/news/200611/076.asp

A quote just for you:
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In the previous generation the PlayStation 2 steamrolled the competition thanks in large part to exclusives such as the Grand Theft Auto games. It might have worked out similarly for Sony's new console, but according to Newsweek, Kutaragi's sluggishness pushed third parties out of exclusive deals and into Microsoft's welcoming arms. Grand Theft Auto developer Rockstar and parent company Take Two were keen to work with Sony again, says Newsweek, but Kutaragi did not put due emphasis on the discussions. Ubisoft, also, is fingered. Apparently the company was interested in working with Sony to make Assassin's Creed a PlayStation 3 exclusive, but when Kutaragi shut himself off while executives were trying to negotiate, the deal fell through. Cue Microsoft.

http://playstation.joystiq.com/2007/03/19/devil-may-cry-4-no-longer-a-ps3-exclusive/

Mike - you don't have to *agree* with the general view on the PS3, but at some point, it might be mature to *accept* it. Maybe things will change, or they won't, either way, you're not changing the worlds opinion on PS3 with constant spin.

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@BigD
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I just really don't understand why Sony has made such a fuss of 'Home'.

Because it has lots of potential. I'm beginning to feel that 'potential' is code for 'Beta'.

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I fear the Wii is a one trick pony

I think I understand. Nintendo needs to expand their marketing outside the casual gaming market. The Wii is a capable console. And if you want Blu-Ray buying a BR Player + Wii is cheaper than a PS3.

@Wegster
You are welcome. Top 10 complaints for each console was a good read. For the $100 WiFi adapter for the 360 that is if one buys the Microsoft brand. Other ethernet to wifi adapters are half the price and do work. I do agree that Microsoft should cut the WiFi adapter price in half, if not include it in the Elite.

I think Final Fantasy moving to cross platform highlights some of the losses the PS3 has experienced in exclusivity. Even with the PS3 beating the 360 in Japan Square Enix said last Nov they expect the 360 to continue to gain market share in Japan.


@MikeB
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I don't care too much for the naming issues

They are kinda important if you correctly want to reflect the technology in use. Someone claiming they have a 'Vette when it's a cheVETTE and not a CorVETTE obviously gets laughed at...

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Not really, exclusives need to be earned.

One accomplishes that through market penetration. Being #1 is very helpful. Being the lower cost and higher profit for developers is also very helpful. The PS3 is neither of these things. So what we are seeing is HD games on dual concoles and even a few PS3 games, Monster Hunter 3 for example, only coming on the Wii. Even the Sony owned licensing for Ghost Busters was smart enough to let it go multi-platform.


@Hammer
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Well, a texture fetch would stall RSX's pixel shader operations.

A few pages back if not a thread back I posted some recent comparisions of cross platform titles. While the PS3 is improving into 360 terrority it appears textures are still superior on the 360. Not to discount the PS3 it does have some lighting superiorities. But, of course the PS3 has other superiorites, just not all of them as some would expect.

Last edited by BrianK on 31-Mar-2009 at 02:01 AM.

Supposedly 3/31 will be a PS announcement from Sony. People have posed the $129 to $99 cut for the PS2. No PS3 items have been posted yet.

Did Sony manage to get a price cut on PS3 and keep it secret? (Doubt it). Other ideas are a new PS3 (slimline?) at the same price but reintroducing B/C. (Good idea IMO.) Another is a major firmware release. (Possible.)

I believe Sony has lost more money on the PS3 than Microsoft lost on the original Xbox. Not a great financial win. Perhaps it's a PS4 w/ improved Cell and improved GPU to lead the next gen and hope to return to #1....

@MikeB

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Why care about its naming?

For technical reasons.

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The end result is what matters or not?

As they say, “there’s many ways to skin a cat”.

It’s a trade-off between pixel shader, ROP units, bandwidth and storage resources.
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Most games use FP16 render targets: this is the most straightforward and simple way to do it, quality is also very good, though unfortunately FP16 render targets require a lot of memory and bandwidth: every pixel needs 8 bytes in video ram to store its color data. (SNIP)

The integer method requires additional pixel shader cycles and ALUs.

Last edited by Hammer on 31-Mar-2009 at 07:58 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 31-Mar-2009 at 03:53 AM.

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@wegster

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As I stated, I don't recall Uncharted being 'acceptable wait times.'

No in-game load times, it's a pretty seamless experience... The game has gotten a lot of credit for this.

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If it wasn't duplicating data, then what was used that no one else magically has stumbled on (unlikely)?

Blu-Ray optimisation, Blu-Ray is different compared to DVD (far more modern) and requires different loading approaches. Naughty Dog was ahead in terms of PS3 optimisations (SPU usages, harddrive caching, Blu-Ray streaming, etc)

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Nor for 20 million or so? Too bad it remains so for the much larger base of Wii and 360 owners, eh?

The 360 userbase isn't that much larger. Many 3rd parties even earn more money with they PS3 than they do on the 360.

The NES (or gaming PCs) outsold the Amiga 500 considerably. But would I have wanted the Amiga 500 to be NES specced? NO!

Lemmings Amiga version (February 1991, unlike other version supported two players using two mice):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7SgDS-16UFA

Lemmings PC version (July 1991):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PV1ivJcmtrw

Lemmings NES version (1992):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=g7ccvmKKldo

@ BrianK

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'Vette when it's a cheVETTE and not a CorVETTE obviously gets laughed at...

Stupid example. Basically you require developers to make stupid decisions, when something can be done with better quality and efficiency with a little more effort, you think that's a bad idea?

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @wegster [quote] The NES (or gaming PCs) outsold the Amiga 500 considerably. But would I have wanted the Amiga 500 to be NES specced? NO!

The NES was a C64 with a better gpu...it was 6502-based.
A better comparison would be comparing the SNES to the Amiga.
Again, the SNES had better custom chips despite an inferior cpu (7.14 Mhz 68000 vs. 3.42 Mhz 65816). Kinda like the 360 had better custom chips despite the superior cpu of the PS3...

@MikeB

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Stupid example. Basically you require developers to make stupid decisions, when something can be done with better quality and efficiency with a little more effort, you think that's a bad idea?

Funny example...

But the statement was how you didn't care about naming. Certainly correct naming of the technology in use accurately describes what the developers are doing.

Would it be accurate if we called you MicheleB? Of course not.

Sony's "big" announcement today was to cut the price of the PS2 by $30...
http://www.edge-online.com/news/104/ps2-price-cut-99

Me thinks they cut the price of the wrong console...

@Lou

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