@jiyong

Quote:

We can also wonder what VGChartz actually includes in the "Other" region. Does it include Korea and India?

Correct VGChartz is far from perfect, I lured them on many occassions for more information. With regard to India the PS3 significantly outsells the 360, but the PS2 performs better as the PS3 is quite expensive for most people there. In almost the whole of Asia the PS3 performs better than the 360, for Korea the 360 install base is still larger AFAIK.

For various smaller European countries the PS3 has outsold the total 360 install base, though we only have reliable data for some larger countries, Portugal, Spain and Italy are backed up by GfK data, of the larger European countries next up will likely be Germany early January 2008, here PS3 games are already significantly outperforming 360 sales.

@Samwel

Quote:

The difference being that a PC will cost you way more for what it's worth as a games machine. But I'm quite sure Hammer will disagree. But I'm not interested in running games in lower resolution, lower frame rate than others having my as beaten because my machine isn't fast enough on all those FPS games

Today a $500PC will compete very well if not better then the PS3 or 360. In 1 year this will be even more the case. In the 10 year lifespan of the PS, as established by Sony, the PC will ever increasingly outstrip the console.

Quote:

What do you think? Am I way off or?

I think you're on. I repeat myself here but I do think that in 2008 Sony's PS3 might catch up with the other 2 consoles. While Jan-Feb sales are typically down from the pre-Christmas levels, perhaps MikeB is right and there's more then adequate new games to push them over the top.

@jiyong

Quote:

I have only glanced once in a while at the console threads, but for someone who claims to be quite knowledgeable in math, you are not really showing it when you discuss Sony. As Samwell points out, until the end of March 2008 is not 10 weeks.

WTF dude why do you insist on being rude? We're discussing the consoles not committing personal attacks knock that crap out.

Onto the point of your question - I took Sony's year end of March meaning March 1st. It appears the case may be that their year end is end of March not the beginning as I had assumed. See no need to be rude.

Quote:

I also see in the media that Sony is talking shipped,

If that's the case then no problem. Sony simply overfills the sales channel.

Quote:

We can also wonder what VGChartz actually includes in the "Other" region

Good question. Along the same lines my understanding is Wal-Mart might be missing in various numbers. I guess they don't play well with Neilsen and perhaps NPD.

Quote:

You also mention you see no big titles for the PS3 after X-Mas and before end of March 2008. Well, how would you qualify

Please read MikeB's response to my question on what he sees will sell console and my subsequent agreement. I believe Mike's is #14 and my agreements in #15. That should answer this for you. Thanks!

@BrianK

Quote:

WTF dude why do you insist on being rude? We're discussing the consoles not committing personal attacks knock that crap out.

One could wonder how MikeB feels about that. The amount of flak he is receiving isn't "just discussing consoles".

If you don't make "mistakes", there's no chance for me being "rude". Simple.

I have another one for you. And I would say it involves "math". I would say you have been a big advocate that we shouldn't include the PS3 for the BR consumer base. Now that the positive HD-DVD news really starts to dry up, you came with something new.

The attach rate is much better for HD-DVD. But that would only hold true of you would include the PS3 in the BR consumer base, right?

So which way do you want to go? Doesn't look very consistent to me.

Quote:

Quote: I also see in the media that Sony is talking shipped, If that's the case then no problem. Sony simply overfills the sales channel.

That's your assumption.

Quote:

Quote: You also mention you see no big titles for the PS3 after X-Mas and before end of March 2008. Well, how would you qualify Please read MikeB's response to my question on what he sees will sell console and my subsequent agreement. I believe Mike's is #14 and my agreements in #15. That should answer this for you. Thanks!

I see Mike is pointing out some titles. There's a very negative tone in your reply. You do however point out that you wouldn't be surprised 2008 will be the year that the PS3 will catch up, but based on what?

Quote:

Last year, vgchartz again, it appears 1.5M sold in this timeframe. So now can they really sell over 2x as much? Perhaps they finally got the cost down enough and have enough games coming in Jan. I think they are over estimating. As for those sequels and sales. You're right they had more user count then Halo. But to be fair they had lower console penetration, in other words more consoles in user's hands. Surely they'll drive some sales. I too think 2008 might be the year the PS3 catches up. We'll see.

Just point out what in your post is indicating 2008 might be the year the PS3 catches up. I don't see it in your post.

@MikeB
Tested out the new firmware.. not very impressive compared to the divx/xvid support released for xbox. Anything but standard definition xvid would just show up as corrupted data.
At least even you cannot disagree with xbox 360 currently being the better video jukebox/media center as it is now.

Last edited by Tomas on 18-Dec-2007 at 07:11 PM.

@jiyong

Quote:

If you don't make "mistakes", there's no chance for me being "rude". Simple

In the words of Gozer -- Are you a God? I'm all for us pointing out mistakes, asking for clarifications, or corrections as necessary. Part of a discussion is to learn things we don't know or perhaps may even be mistaken about. We're all human afterall. But if you really insist that being rude and turning them into personal attacks appears to be against the terms and conditions of the site.


Quote:

I would say you have been a big advocate that we shouldn't include the PS3 for the BR consumer base.

Early on stand alones were being counted and not consoles. The market seems unclear itself on how to handle the PS3. I think it was Samwel, sorry if I have that name wrong, that says we shouldn't count all PS3s because not all users will use them as BR players. The existence of the Blu-Ray/PS3 combo makes it interesting and strange to count players in use and calculate ownership rate. HD DVD is easier because the 360 version doesn't play games so they only would be used to play movies. I think what you see is a discussion around the issues surrounding the counts and reflection of market data in a complex market.

If you're asking my view I prefer to count all PS3s as Blu-Ray players and use their total count in the attach rate. Whether or not you or the market agrees then it is what it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by this...
Quote:

Quote: [quote] I also see in the media that Sony is talking shipped, If that's the case then no problem. Sony simply overfills the sales channel.

That's your assumption.[/quote]
Perhaps my point wasn't clear. Sony is either talking about consoles sold or consoles shipped. You mentioned the thought they meant shipped not sold. To acheive consoles sold of 3M+ in 3 months is harder then acheiving consoles shipped of 3M+ in 3 months. In the first case they have to have 3M+ people buying the consoles. In the later case they simply need to manufacture 3M+ consoles.

Quote:

You do however point out that you wouldn't be surprised 2008 will be the year that the PS3 will catch up, but based on what?

I think there's 2 items here. First is 2008 games are better then 2007 games for the PS3, again IMO, but I think MikeB would agree. The 2nd is it seems Sony appears willing to do what it takes - ie lower costs wherever possible to fix the issue that the first iteration of the console appeared to be too expensive for the market.

Quote:

Just point out what in your post is indicating 2008 might be the year the PS3 catches up. I don't see it in your post

Last line of post #15 is '. I too think 2008 might be the year the PS3 catches up. We'll see.' I've said this previously in other threads. I see the confusion you thought 'again' meant in the same point. I used 'again' indicating the repetition of the point within these threads. I hope that clears up the confusion on the use of the word, and hence you better understand what I meant.

Last edited by BrianK on 18-Dec-2007 at 06:58 PM.

@Tomas

Quote:

At least even you cannot disagree with xbox 360 currently being the better video jukebox/media center as it is now.

Sure anyone can, just read experts visual and audio websites. The latest DivX versions are supported 3.11 or older are not. The PS3 has become an official DivX compatible player and games developers can even use this technology for within games.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Dec-2007 at 08:23 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: The PS3 has become an official DivX compatible player and games developers can even use this technology for within games.

The codec is even available for the Gamecube to play Divx within games. Not a big deal.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Tomas Quote: At least even you cannot disagree with xbox 360 currently being the better video jukebox/media center as it is now. Sure anyone can, just read experts visual and audio websites. The latest DivX versions are supported 3.11 or older are not. The PS3 has become an official DivX compatible player and games developers can even use this technology for within games.

Which is still very lacking compared to the divx/xvid codec for the xbox 360. The xbox 360 even plays back divx/xvid at 1280x720 with ac3 5,1 sound. The ps3 only play back SD and i am unsure on 5.1 audio support.
There was also some SD material that it just plain refused to play, even though the xbox 360 played it back just fine. I have yet to find a single xvid that does not play on the xbox 360.

But this is indeed a step in the right direction even though it is still lacking behind xbox.

Completed stranglehold today.... It was fun while it lasted, but i found it extremely short. The game could easily be completed in less than a day, at least at the easier difficulty settings.

@Tomas

I don't know anything about the 360's video playback ability so I'll take your word
on it. But I agree that the PS3 does indeed complain about certain supposedly
supported file formats.

Don't why this is the case. But I have some MP3's that I have been told by the PS3
are broken but still plays ok on my PC. Maybe the PS3 is too sensitive? Minimal
error found and it stops/starts playing?

Fortunately most work fine.


Btw I haven't tested ac3 5.1 or HD DivX/Xvid either.. Maybe I'll try downloading
something just to test.
If not supported I'm quite sure Sony will fix these issues in future firmware upgrades.

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@Lou

Quote:

The codec is even available for the Gamecube to play Divx within games. Not a big deal.

Maybe it is for Mike? Maybe you shouldn't rain on his parade?

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@BrianK

Quote:

I think it was Samwel, sorry if I have that name wrong, that says we shouldn't count all PS3s because not all users will use them as BR players.

You got the name right.

Hmm not really my my point but close.. I meant that we can't count attach rate on
Blu-Ray reliably because of the PS3. If we remove the PS3 from the count then
Blu-Rays attach rate shoots through the roof, not correct either.

The truth being not anyone knows how many of the PS3 owners buy Blu-Ray movies.
On the swedish PS3 forum it seemed like anything from 40-60% had bought one
Blu-Ray atleast. But as the large majority doesn't post on forums we'll never know
the real figure. I would guess that about half of the PS3 owners in general do own
atleast one Blu-Ray (some bundles). This doesn't however mean these are used as
movie players nor that these users will ever buy another movie.

But sure if you want use attach rate, use it. It's the only positive thing about the
HD-DVD market today. Regarding market share and sales of movies. Not the format
itself which there's nothing wrong with.

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@BrianK

Quote:

Today a $500PC will compete very well if not better then the PS3 or 360. In 1 year this will be even more the case. In the 10 year lifespan of the PS, as established by Sony, the PC will ever increasingly outstrip the console.

Btw as PC's generally doesn't connect to TV's and cost way more than any console
I don't think PC hardware will impact the console sales. It never has before.

The PS3 will never go beyond 1920x1080 60Hz. So there's no need for having gfx
hardware that makes it possible to calculate 200 FPS. Yes quality may get better.
But (most of) these things can be fixed by the Cell. The Cell is afterall not used more
than 50% by any game yet, maybe even less. In a year or two the PS3 games will get
better and we'll see no frame drops anymore. I think not even from third party
companies.

The main problem I see today for 360 and PS3 is the relatively low amount of memory
these consoles have. Many companies doesn't seem to know how to stream gfx
data without dropping frame rate. This includes some 360 games.

Of course the last couple of years until PS4 arrives there will be a huge difference
between PC and PS3. As it was with PS2 and PC's.

Quote:

I think you're on. I repeat myself here but I do think that in 2008 Sony's PS3 might catch up with the other 2 consoles. While Jan-Feb sales are typically down from the pre-Christmas levels, perhaps MikeB is right and there's more then adequate new games to push them over the top.

Thanks, we're agreeing. Wow!

I don't know if all the games will have the major impact he thinks. I think there's a
huge mass of PS2 owners that has been waiting a long time to upgrade. Some do
upgrade when they buy a new (HD ready) TV and TV sales are increasing all the time.
In Sweden anyway. PS3 still has alot of hype, especially in Europe.
Some actually still believe you HAVE TO own a HD ready TV to use PS3.

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@Samwel
Quote:

Maybe the PS3 is too sensitive? Minimal error found and it stops/starts playing?

I think it just does not support anything but SD. I have tried many different kinds of 720p and all show up as corrupted even before trying to play them back.

Anyone know if Sony released any info regarding exact bitrates, resolution and such for xvid?

@Tomas

Ok. But I didn't mean HD DivX/Xvid with those comments.
I meant those files it's supposed to play but says are broken.

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@Tomas

Quote:

Anyone know if Sony released any info regarding exact bitrates, resolution and such for xvid?

To get official DivX certification I suppose a player has to perform to a degree.
Maybe you could check divx.com or something for information?

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@Samwel

With all this Blu/HD/Xvid has anyone tried putting 2 hours of HD video on a DVD?

Here's one article and how to record so one's HD DVD can play it.

Nice - get High Def quality on a DVD without having to pay the expensive blank Blu-Ray or HD DVD prices. Much less expensive then today's blank Blu-Ray prices. I guess they won't play on DVD players but most HD DVD or Blu-Ray players will play the '3xDVD'.

@BrianK

I have seen pirated copies of Prison Break whole seasons in HD + 5.1 sound being
only 7.5GB in size.
I have not downloaded any such stuff so I cannot comment on quality.

If don't know if any nonpirated HD DivX/Xvid's are available. But it's certainly
interesting. I would imagine atleast DVD quality for the picture when used with HD
resolution.

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@Samwel

Quote:

The difference being that a PC will cost you way more for what it's worth as a games machine. But I'm quite sure Hammer will disagree. But I'm not interested in running games in lower resolution, lower frame rate than others having my as beaten because my machine isn't fast enough on all those FPS games.

Depends on the games machine being targeted e.g. PS3.

Let’s make an apple vs apple comparisons in terms screen resolution e.g. UT3 PS3 runs on entry level HD 1280x720p resolution. A PC equiped with Geforce 8600GT or Radeon HD 2600XT can easily play UT3 PC @1280x720p resolution and +30FPS (PS3's target FPS). Similar pattern for Gears of War PC edition.

Refer to http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3128&p=3
Anandtech benchmarks UT3 @1280x1024 and shows +30FPS

For GPU prices refer to http://www.pricewatch.com/video_cards/
For newer PC games, avoid Geforce 7 series.

Geforce 8600GT or Radeon HD 2600XT can easily run Oblivion, TwoWorlds, Bioshock, HellGate (DX9c), Lost Planet (DX9c), Quake Wars Enemy Territory, Orange Box (DX9c) , Fear (DX9c), Quake4 @720p resolution. "Crysis" performance ATI and NV drivers are recommended.

Beyond 1280x720p or 1280x800p and DX10, a cheap ATI Radeon 3850 is recommended.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Dec-2007 at 11:09 AM.

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