@Lou

Quote:

Well, gee, World of Warcraft came out in 2004...those characters are avatars too... The point is, Nintendo made it "built-in" to the system. Made it a feature of the platform. A console. Not a PC... Nintendo is succeeding with unique ideas. 19 months after the console's release, we now see the copy-cats... Makes you wonder what Nintendo will come up with in the next generation...

Being not a Wii owner what makes the Mii unique besides 3D look and motion?

Also, Microsoft sees Home coming. Certainly Live updated to pick up features of either competitor will come into play.

Having 3 competitors is good for the market IMO. We see Sony copying HDD feature from Microsoft. We see Nintendo and Sony picking up online games from Microsoft. We see Sony copying motion controllers via Wii. ETC.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: Well, gee, World of Warcraft came out in 2004...those characters are avatars too... The point is, Nintendo made it "built-in" to the system. Made it a feature of the platform. A console. Not a PC... Nintendo is succeeding with unique ideas. 19 months after the console's release, we now see the copy-cats... Makes you wonder what Nintendo will come up with in the next generation... Being not a Wii owner what makes the Mii unique besides 3D look and motion? Also, Microsoft sees Home coming. Certainly Live updated to pick up features of either competitor will come into play. Having 3 competitors is good for the market IMO. We see Sony copying HDD feature from Microsoft. We see Nintendo and Sony picking up online games from Microsoft. We see Sony copying motion controllers via Wii. ETC.

Eh? Nintendo did online games/downloads on the SNES + N64
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellaview
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64DD

@Lou

Quote:

Eh? Nintendo did online games/downloads on the SNES + N64 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellaview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64DD

Interesting. Both appear to failures which never made it out of Japan. They also appear to be add-ons and not part of the console from day1. I'd like to see a 64DD.

Last edited by BrianK on 16-Jun-2008 at 06:13 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: Eh? Nintendo did online games/downloads on the SNES + N64 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellaview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64DD Interesting. Both appear to failures which never made it out of Japan. They also appear to be add-ons and not part of the console from day1. I'd like to see a 64DD.

Actually, back in the day, I was hotly waiting for the release of the 64DD before buying an N64...eventually, I just bought a PS1 to play FF7...though other than that, I was at my cousin's house on his N64 playing the WWF/WWE/WCW line of wrestling games that graced the platform...and Golden Eye, ofcourse...

Supposedly, there was a very limited release of DD units released to the US...but it was at the end the N64's lifetime that it didn't even matter... I bought a Gamecube and never looked back... Day of Reckoning 2 on the Gamecube is a masterpiece if you like 4 player wrestling games...and yes, the graphics were incredible on the wrestlers...

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Being not a Wii owner what makes the Mii unique besides 3D look and motion?

Actually, only the head is truly defined... EA has used Mii's in one or two of their games and they render the body differently... Even Nintendo is not consistent with the body amongst it's channels and games... It's the concept that makes it unique...but Nintendo didn't finish the job with it and it looks like MS and Sony will somewhat pick up where Nintendo left off...

@Lou

Mii head images look funny shaped cartoonish. That's likely a symptom of not being immersed in the Wii environment, personally.

AMD’s ATI division, for example, unveiled its Firestream 9250 card, based on the upcoming RV770 GPU, which will be part of the 4800 series of graphics cards. According to AMD, the new GPU can deliver 1.2 TFlops per RV770 GPU.
4x Crossfire X configuration is good for almost 5 TFlops

So much for Cell power...

@BrianK

That's nothing to do with Cell.. How funny you may think it is..
It's just evolution. Cell is bound to be beaten some time. But the real question
is will it be beaten in performance/price? Or will those gfx cards for PC each
cost like 2 complete PS3's?

_________________
/Harry

[SOLD] µA1-C - 750GX 800MHz - 512MB - Antec Aria case

Avatar by HNL_DK!

@Lou

Quote:

Well atleast that answers that. I wonder how the two differ exactly, if it was just a case of optimization. The latter version has a larger install to the HDD...

The first version for EU was also smooth. But they did a update for the American
disc release. I think rumble support was the biggy in that update.

_________________
/Harry

[SOLD] µA1-C - 750GX 800MHz - 512MB - Antec Aria case

Avatar by HNL_DK!

@Samwel

Quote:

That's nothing to do with Cell.. How funny you may think it is..

Do note the face of RAZZ.

Quote:

It's just evolution. Cell is bound to be beaten some time. But the real question is will it be beaten in performance/price? Or will those gfx cards for PC each cost like 2 complete PS3's?

Of course the Cell will be beaten. It's certainly going to be beaten in performance/price too. While today each single GFX card is likely as costly as a PS3 in a couple of years they'll likely be much cheaper.

ATI Radeon HD 4870 @ 750Mhz
1GB RAM
Includes 7.1 surround sound and Dual monitors...
...will be released on June 24th/25th. Estimated Street price is US $349 area.

Google's Cache caught an Amazon slip of the little brother 4850 -- $200. So the above estimate is likely not far off.

Last edited by BrianK on 17-Jun-2008 at 05:26 AM.

Interview with developers of The Conduit for the Wii:
http://www.nintendowiifanboy.com/2008/06/16/wii-fanboy-interviews-high-voltage-on-the-conduit/
Quote:

The Wii has a fixed function graphics processing pipeline, so it isn't really a direct comparison and the vertex / pixel processing on the system is not technically done via "shaders". What HVS has done is find super creative ways of utilizing the fixed functionality of the Wii graphics HW to produce effects that have historically required shaders to create. This includes bump and environment mapping, end to end illumination, projected lights and shadows, interactive water, HDR, bloom, emissive materials and a host of other high end effects. What's awesome to me is being able to offer these kinds of next-gen visual details on a platform that also allows us to make unique FPS gameplay due to the amazing control scheme of the Wii.

Quote:

One of our goals from the very start was to make a fast-paced accessible FPS. To that end we looked at and stole shamelessly from mega-hits like Halo and Half-Life, recent titles like Resistance: Fall of Man and Metroid Prime Corruption, as well as classics like Goldeneye for the N64.

AND
Quote:

With The Conduit we want to redefine first person shooter controls. Hard core FPS gamers that have played the game have told me that they are now convinced that Wii is the best system for the genre. When you play it you'll realize very quickly that the Wii Remote is an incredible control device for this type of game. It just feels amazing to play. Rob: I think if you are buying a Wii, you're buying it to make use of its motion sensitive controls, which are tailor made for an FPS game.

about AI
Quote:

In The Conduit, our bad guys can hear and see, understand the use of cover, have variable levels of aggression, use grenades effectively, advance and retreat, and can determine when the player is susceptible to attack (i.e. reloading, exposed and moving in their firing cone). I think focusing a higher than normal amount of the dev time on AI makes our single player experience better than most other FPS titles out there.

One thing I should note about this game over original Xbox games...with the Xbox, games that showed off amazing textures had low polygon counts. With this game and even the GC games from Factor 5, the hardware maintains a high polygon count. The hands in this game are not textured "mittens"... This game looks very promising indeed.
They are also working with Nintendo to get on-line multiplayer... It looks quite promising.

@Thread

Excuse me chaps. I see you are busy with your never ending thread, but might I interject with a question or two?

I have neither the lifetimes, nor desire to read through the million billion posts to see if this has already been answered so I'm awfully sorry it it has old bean, you see I have decided the TV in my living room is underused and the answer is to stick a console underneath it.

Having ruled out the Wii (because I don't like the game selection), I'm plumping for either an Xbox 360 or PS3 (since they essentially have the exact same games) and just want to confirm as couple of things.

(I should mention, I'm not interested in online play at all ever. Its bad enough on the PC trying to find servers without idiots, the console is much much much worse.)


1. Firstly, which is quieter? (And I suppose cooler running) A Xbox Eite or a PS3 (60Gig HD)? (PAL versions)

2. I've heard some pretty shocking stories about the unreliability of the Xbox but had been led to believe the problems were fixed. A quick read of the reviews on Amazon (of the supposedly fixed elite) shows even now, the problems continue. I haven't come across any bad hardware reliability on the PS3, is there any?

3. And thirdly, which has the edge in performance? I know the Blueray in the PS3 means potentialy bigger games, but what about graphic pop-ups? Which console suffers less from that?


Money is no object so the huge price difference doesn't play any part in my choice. I only have room for one (and since they share most games, buying another for the sake of a couple of exclusives seems pointless), so buying both is out as well.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

1. Firstly, which is quieter? (And I suppose cooler running) A Xbox Eite or a PS3 (60Gig HD)? (PAL versions)

The PS3 is more quiet, due to the 360 noisy DVD drive.

Quote:

I haven't come across any bad hardware reliability on the PS3, is there any?

Within industry standards, lately mostly drive related incidents but less prevelant than drive related issues on the 360. In addition 360s suffer other issues mostly RRoD.

Quote:

. And thirdly, which has the edge in performance?

Both platforms are architecturely very different, the PS3 has a significant CPU performance advantage, more system bandwidth and a default harddrive for developers to tap into.

Some 360 to PS3 ports are subpar though, this due to artchitecture differences and the 360's 1 year headstart which resulted in porjects to be lead on the 360. The more impressive high budget multi-platform games are about on par though (like best sellers COD4 and Assassin's Creed).

The big PS3 exclusives are overall more impressive from a technical standpoint.

Quote:

I know the Blueray in the PS3 means potentialy bigger games, but what about graphic pop-ups? Which console suffers less from that?

The PS3 due to using the harddrive for caching or sometimes game installs.

Uncharted: Drakes Fortune and Ratchet & Clank TOD are using the caching method a lot and look awesome with less pop-ins than 360 exclusives.

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: 1. Firstly, which is quieter? (And I suppose cooler running) A Xbox Eite or a PS3 (60Gig HD)? (PAL versions)

The 360's are overall quieter now. The PS3 is particularly noisy when acting as a movie player...

Quote:

2. I've heard some pretty shocking stories about the unreliability of the Xbox but had been led to believe the problems were fixed. A quick read of the reviews on Amazon (of the supposedly fixed elite) shows even now, the problems continue. I haven't come across any bad hardware reliability on the PS3, is there any?

I would wait until the holidays to buy a 360 as their is a newer hardware revision in the works which should run even cooler than the current Elite hardware. Now that the PS3 has been in the field 1.5 years, consumers are starting to report more laser diode failures...these are typical of all Sony optical drives...

Quote:

3. And thirdly, which has the edge in performance? I know the Blueray in the PS3 means potentialy bigger games, but what about graphic pop-ups? Which console suffers less from that?

The PS3 has the overall stronger cpu, weaker gpu. If you read a couple of pages back, you'll see how easy it is to fill the harddrive with required installs by many games in order to help reduce "pop in/up" because the BR drive cannot read data as fast as the 12xDVD reader in the 360...for the most part... With the 360's unified memory artitecture, either the cpu or gpu can access the data quickly and there is no need to move it back and forth over a bus (going from gpu to cpu being particularly slower) like what happens with the PS3. The PS3 over promised and under-delivered, much like the PS2.

Quote:

Money is no object so the huge price difference doesn't play any part in my choice. I only have room for one (and since they share most games, buying another for the sake of a couple of exclusives seems pointless), so buying both is out as well.

Again, I say wait until the holidays to make a decision. Prices will be lower and I believe new 360 hardware will be announced that negates the storage media advantage of the PS3...a BluRay equipped 360.
Infact, since most games are pre-ordered anyway, I believe publishers will be allowed to sell games mastered on BluRay pending consumer demand when they pre-order... I just hope the the BR player is 2x so as not to break compatibility with DVD-based titles that require faster access than BluRay can provide. Perhaps by then, maybe PS3 software may prove to be true what Mike thinks is the reason behind poorer 3rd party ports when the same software is compared head-to-head.

So again I recomend you wait until the holidays. I still don't belive the PS3 will ever out-do the 360 graphically on cross-platform titles...but only time will tell.

In the meantime, let me recommend World of Warcraft to you.

@MikeB/Lou

Well then, thats clear as mud. Now I know why the thread is so long.

Two to the point answers, each recomending alternative consoles. If I wanted to wade through the technical mire, I'd stick to PC's as games machines. Whatever happened to the old days when you just bought a Playstation and had several years of trouble free motoring?

I'll tell you what, Microsoft. Not content with buggering up computers, now they are at it with consoles. Oh I know they didn't touch the PS, but its their bloody awful karma that they bring with them everywhere thats done it.

Overall though, the PS3 looks the better deal if I was forced to choose based soley on reliability. The 360 looks the better deal on cost (I'll never use most of the frills the PS3 comes with), but the game exclusives aren't so great when you have a PC as most of what was claimed to be exclusive, I can play on my PC (Just orderd Mass Effect this morning).

Waiting seems the best option then. So much for impulse buying. Heck, I bought a Reliant Scimitar (An 1974 SE5A) on impulse last Tuesday that was less hastle researching than this and that's a classic sports car!

Quote:

In the meantime, let me recommend World of Warcraft to you.

Oh no you don't. I've never shredded a game CD before, that is until I played WoW. I tried it a while ago then gave up, then again recently (having forgotton why I stopped playing the first time). This time I've destroyed the game utterly to prevent me from making that mistake again. Depending on what time you play, the game ranged from cybersex to everything I hated about the school playtime. Urgh I can't stress how much I hate that game.

Based soley on that recommendation, I'm going to buy a PS3 because if your judgement can be so wrong about a game, then you must also be utterly wrong about consoles!

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 18-Jun-2008 at 03:57 PM.

_________________
"Anyone with a modicum of reasonableness may realize that it is like comparing the ride in the world to descend the stairs to catch the milk in the house."

Google Translate

@ Lou

Quote:

he 360's are overall quieter now. The PS3 is particularly noisy when acting as a movie player..

I own a 60GB PAL PS3, I don't hear it at all. I have to open the glass doors of the cabinet and sit next to it to hear the fans if the PS3 has been on for a while.

I hear nothing, not while playing movies or games. You can clearly hear any 360's DVD drive spinning. The external HD DVD may be less noisy, but HD DVD has been discontinued.

Quote:

Now that the PS3 has been in the field 1.5 years, consumers are starting to report more laser diode failures...these are typical of all Sony optical drives...

Are you sure I only heard about some very rare broken drive motor issues. The PS3 operates fine but fails to recognize discs. Very rare compared to reports of 360 drive and RRoD reports on the major game forums.

Quote:

The PS3 has the overall stronger cpu, weaker gpu.

The raw specs of the RSX are higher. The Xenos has some interesting features for achieving cheap AA with less fillrate penalty. On the other hand the RSX was designed to tap into the Cell pontential by performing some fillrate related tasks. The Cell is very suited to do RSX related pre-processing and pos-processing, developers are starting to take more advantage of such distinguishing specs.

Quote:

order to help reduce "pop in/up" because the BR drive cannot read data as fast as the 12xDVD reader in the 360...for the most part...

For the most part the Blu-Ray drive reads quicker (considering current 360 games are stored on 6.8 GB Dual Layer DVDs). I posted a very detailed posting with reliable source referencing earlier within this thread.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jun-2008 at 04:42 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jun-2008 at 04:41 PM.

To summ up with regard to reading speed, the 12 speed 360 drive like any other 12 speed drive reads DL disc at 8 speed max and slows down to 3.3x speed for the inner tracks. The Blu-Ray speed remain constant throughout the disc and on average reads more than 1 MB per second faster.

For multi-platform games for the small part the 360 drive loads faster the easy route is to install these parts on the harddrive for the PS3. Developers are starting to optimise more and more for Blu-Ray disc, which is far newer technology. Uncharted hailed as the best looking console game (at least before MGS4) uses no harddrive install and has no in-game loading.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jun-2008 at 04:53 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @ Lou Quote: he 360's are overall quieter now. The PS3 is particularly noisy when acting as a movie player.. I own a 60GB PAL PS3, I don't hear it at all. I have to open the glass doors of the cabinet and sit next to it to hear the fans if the PS3 has been on for a while. I hear nothing, not while playing movies or games. You can clearly hear any 360's DVD drive spinning. The external HD DVD may be less noisy, but HD DVD has been discontinued.

The key word was "now". In otherwords, if he buys a 360 today, it's much quieter than your near-launch unit. As for the PS3's noise, the fans come on full steam about 1/2 way through movies as has been attested to many times over. It's fairly noisy then. It's about getting rid of the heat build-up...

Quote:

Quote: Now that the PS3 has been in the field 1.5 years, consumers are starting to report more laser diode failures...these are typical of all Sony optical drives... Are you sure I only heard about some very rare broken drive motor issues. The PS3 operates fine but fails to recognize discs. Very rare compared to reports of 360 drive and RRoD reports on the major game forums.

Just because you didn't hear a tree falling in the forest, doesn't mean it didn't fall. If a PS3 fails to recognize discs, how is the PS3 operating fine? It is the sum of it's parts. If one part is broken, the unit as a whole is broken.

Quote:

Quote: The PS3 has the overall stronger cpu, weaker gpu. The raw specs of the RSX are higher. The Xenos has some interesting features for achieving cheap AA with less fillrate penalty. On the other hand the RSX was designed to tap into the Cell pontential by performing some fillrate related tasks. The Cell is very suited to do RSX related pre-processing and pos-processing, developers are starting to take more advantage of such distinguishing specs.

Theoretically numbers real world performance. Not having to manual scale resolutions to desired output levels = huge saving in performance that can be applied to higher resolutions and framerates...

Quote:

Quote: order to help reduce "pop in/up" because the BR drive cannot read data as fast as the 12xDVD reader in the 360...for the most part... For the most part the Blu-Ray drive reads quicker (considering current 360 games are stored on 6.8 GB Dual Layer DVDs). I posted a very detailed posting with reliable source referencing earlier within this thread.

Yet still GTA4 runs admirably well with regards to pop-up and at a higher resolution on the 360 than the PS3...
That's just it, you move your critical data to the parts of the disc that offer fast access. Console manufactures and even floppy-based systems have been doing this for years. BluRay comes up short in peak access times and thus the HDD installation is required. This doesn't mean I am calling you a liar, just that there are ways around things that you don't see.

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: Based soley on that recommendation, I'm going to buy a PS3 because if your judgement can be so wrong about a game, then you must also be utterly wrong about consoles!

My recommendation is buy a new PC and conect it to your bigscreen HDTV and it will play most of the good games you'll find on the 360 or PS3 and better as well...

As for World of Warcraft, you could have just found a server/realm with more mature users... There is also an "Ignore User" feature.
I don't see how going with a PS3 or 360 with improve your experience playing online in that regard...immature gamers are everywhere...

Last edited by Lou on 18-Jun-2008 at 06:09 PM.

@Lou and @Space Druid.

Quote:

The key word was "now". In otherwords, if he buys a 360 today, it's much quieter than your near-launch unit. As for the PS3's noise, the fans come on full steam about 1/2 way through movies as has been attested to many times over. It's fairly noisy then. It's about getting rid of the heat build-up

I second this. I had a launch 360 it was far noiser then either the PS3 or my current generation 360 Elite. Comparing my current gen Elite to my current gen PS3 they are roughly equivalent in noise. (Yes this includes DVD sound.) Blu-Rays on the PS3 do produce an annoying jet sound about 1/2 way through the movie. I can verify other PS3 users that I know have this similar problem. HD DVDs on the 360 do not produce this loud sound.

My understanding is that the 360 fan is variable where the PS3 fan is either off, quiet, or jet loud.


As for reliability -- it appears the PS3 is closer to industry average. 360 is higher but mostly this was the launch units. It's hard to tell how the current gen will do. Comparing the two in the USA the PS3 has a 1 year warranty and 360 a 1 year also, with the exception of a total unit failure which is 3 years. One other difference is the PS3 warranty is (reportedly) the remainder of the 1 year where the 360 warranty resets with the replaced unit to be 1 and 3 years from replacement.


For current games -- I'd recommend one look at the titles both in store and available online and decide which games are out now that you'd play and which games are coming that you'd want to play. 360 has more top rated games and more games. I'm sure someone will argue more lower rated games to as that's simply a function of having more games. Graphics and game play is pretty equivalent on the consoles.


Power usage of the console is close too a couple $ per year won't break the bank on anyone.


Future gaming power -- the PS3 has a higher theoretical top end. MikeB will claim some games have already needed enough power on the PS3 and outstrip what the 360 is capable of. Others, such as myself, will claim that the 360 can do the same games, perhaps 720p instead of 1080p, but none the less no real changes needed. --- Neither of these claims have proof definite. I take my experience from owning and playing both systems. MikeB from owning the PS3.

Comfort -- 360 controller is better then the PS3 controller, IMO. Try them out at a local store and see which you like to hold better.


Answer -- If you want a console either will do for gaming. If you have a HDTV and want Blu-Ray then the PS3 is the answer today. If it's online friends, ranking, rewards then the 360 is answer today.

Of course another option, if cost is no object, is build/buy a quiet PC and use that for gaming. It can also be used as a DVR and more general purpose computing. Amiga emulation on your TV for example.

Last edited by BrianK on 18-Jun-2008 at 06:42 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 18-Jun-2008 at 06:37 PM.