@Lou

Quote:

A better comparison would be comparing the SNES to the Amiga.

Even a low-end Amiga allowed me to play 90s quality games in the 80s, the Amiga had a far more diverse games library than for example the Snes (the Snes was released here in Europe in 1992, the NES in 1987 just like the Amiga 500).

Despite half a decade in between the Amiga 500 and Snes, the Amiga could keep up pretty well

Desert Strike (Amiga 500 version, better than Snes and MegaDrive versions)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7POlttlLfT4

Desert Strike (Snes version)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_seq2VLWEvg

Lemmings (Snes version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbX389CS0M8

Shadow of the Beast (Snes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xv3t2nCaIs

Shadow of the Beast (Amiga 500)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnHY7qUPPro

Last edited by MikeB on 31-Mar-2009 at 05:32 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 31-Mar-2009 at 03:20 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: A better comparison would be comparing the SNES to the Amiga. Even a low-end Amiga allowed me to play 90s quality games in the 80s, the Amiga had a far more diverse games library than for example the Snes (the Snes was released here in Europe in 1992, the NES in 1987 just like the Amiga 500). Despite half a decade in between the Amiga 500 and Snes, the Amiga could keep up pretty well Desert Strike (Amiga 500 version, better than Snes and MegaDrive versions) http://youtube.com/watch?v=7POlttlLfT4 Desert Strike (Snes version) http://youtube.com/watch?v=_seq2VLWEvg Lemmings (Snes version) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbX389CS0M8 Shadow of the Beast (Snes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xv3t2nCaIs Shadow of the Beast (Amiga 500) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnHY7qUPPro

What about all the games the Amiga couldn't do that involved Mode 7?
Then there's the Amiga's joystick compared to the SNES pad...
As I recall, there were 50M SNES' sold world wide and as for Amiga...

Also, as I recall, the Amiga and Genesis/MegaDrive pushed slightly more pixels, but the SNES displayed more colors...that is what leads to graphical differences... The SNES beat the Genesis/Megadrive too.... Oh you remember what the CD-addon for the SNES became, don't you MikeB? :cough:PS1 :cough:

Good try though!

Last edited by Lou on 31-Mar-2009 at 08:43 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 31-Mar-2009 at 08:01 PM.

@all

Quote:

The successive generations of consoles are becoming way too pricey for consumers — evidenced, he says, by the $400 PlayStation 3’s struggle to gain widespread traction.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29961804

Quote:

Price cuts are always welcome, but it's not quite what hardcore gamers were hoping to hear. Consumers and industry analysts have been calling for a price cut on Sony's flagship Playstation 3 system for months now: the PS3 is the most expensive games machine on the market by a hefty margin. But Sony put a stop to that speculation in a statement today, saying "We do not have plans for a PS3 price drop, and any rumors to that effect are false and are the result of speculation."

http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/ps2-to-drop-under-100-on-april-1/1300867

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 31-Mar-2009 at 08:02 PM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@ErikBauer

Quote:

ErikBauer wrote: @Lou

Let's not forget that the UK continues to grab it's ankles for Sony...
NO PS2 PRICE CUT FOR THE U.K! For the rest of Europe, it goes down to 99Euro...


MikeB, how do your knees smell any different this time vs. the last?

Last edited by Lou on 31-Mar-2009 at 08:04 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: A better comparison would be comparing the SNES to the Amiga. Even a low-end Amiga allowed me to play 90s quality games in the 80s, the Amiga had a far more diverse games library than for example the Snes (the Snes was released here in Europe in 1992, the NES in 1987 just like the Amiga 500). Despite half a decade in between the Amiga 500 and Snes, the Amiga could keep up pretty well Desert Strike (Amiga 500 version, better than Snes and MegaDrive versions) http://youtube.com/watch?v=7POlttlLfT4 Desert Strike (Snes version) http://youtube.com/watch?v=_seq2VLWEvg Lemmings (Snes version) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbX389CS0M8 Shadow of the Beast (Snes) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xv3t2nCaIs Shadow of the Beast (Amiga 500) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnHY7qUPPro

In fact looking at SNES version of Shadow of the Beast made me laugh a little, and listening to it made me cry tears of desperation...

As I do see it, I prefer to compare Wii Vs X360+PS3 to Amiga Vs AtariST.
While once the technical superiority of the Amiga + its operating system were more than enoug to revolution the gaming/computing industry, right now having more horsepower is no more a Revolution, as it is the aim of each system and you can be sure that your system, no matter how powerful, will be surpassed in 2/3 years.
The big revolution, the equivalent of the '85 Amiga, today is the Wii...

HOLD ON BEFORE SHOOTING ME AND LISTEN:

Never tought about that next game console will most probably have a control system at least vaguely similar to the Wii? Even now similar ones are coming out for X360 and PC... and mods for PC games let them support a Wiimote.
Nintendo just broke with a brave decision what was the settled standard for gameplay: The most powerful HW you could put your hands on and a Mouse+Keyborard or a Joypad.
Well, right now I can swing a Lightsabre, use my Force Powers, Boxe and Swordplay in a manner that before the coming of the three letters Revolution was not possible.
While writing this mail I just finished a gaming session of Gears of War on my PC, marvelling, yes of course, about the graphix but also wondering how would it be more funy to play with a Wiimote + Nunchuck combo!

You see... Wii's version of Force Unleashed is for sure not the best looking game ever, but the satisfaction you get by playing it with motion controls... totally unpayable and if you think about it, 4 years ago would have been every gamer's dream!

Let's face the truth: the big N, even with lots of flaws, delivered us the true gaming revolution since accelerated 3D GFX boards, comparable to the birth of Amiga, and we are here, discussing about sterile sales numbers of 2 consoles that as their strong point have horsepower! Horsepower that sarcastically is no more than the one of a High End PC and that will be definitively surpassed in one year or so...

Last edited by ErikBauer on 31-Mar-2009 at 09:57 PM.

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@ErikBauer

Slowly, they will begin to understand...

Nintendo is releasing an HD console in late 2011. They also had a 5 year head start on controls of the future.

HDD's are not the future for storage, SSD's are but they are not affordable yet.
They will build a small console that is at home in the Japanese home.
They will build a console that can be enjoyed by many people in 1 room.
It will be affordable like all prior console. It will consume little power and have fast loading times. This is what they do.

Expect a big E3 for Nintendo in June.

Last edited by Lou on 01-Apr-2009 at 12:16 AM.

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: Sony's "big" announcement today was to cut the price of the PS2 by $30... http://www.edge-online.com/news/104/ps2-price-cut-99 Me thinks they cut the price of the wrong console...

Sony is hemmoraging cash. The PS3 loss for every sale only makes this situation worse. Cutting the price of the PS3 only increases the losses. IMO some accountants are leading up the decisions. So perhaps a PS2 cut would be the easiest way to increase profits this year. Did the accountants give up the PS3 race this year?

But, let's be positive about this. Perhaps Sony realizes Christmas is when sales are made or broken. So they'll wait for Oct and not let Microsoft beat them another Christmas.

@Lou

Quote:

(SNIP for space) What about all the games the Amiga couldn't do that involved Mode 7?

Refer to Amiga's "Brian the Lion" for Mode 7 style effects i.e. use Amiga’s GPU.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-Apr-2009 at 04:36 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Apr-2009 at 04:13 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

Stupid example. Basically you require developers to make stupid decisions,

It’s an easy decision to support HDR FP + MSAA on hardware that supports it.

Quote:

when something can be done with better quality and efficiency with a little more effort, you think that's a bad idea?

Encoding/decoding HDR via Logluv would be useful for hardware that doesn’t support HDR FP+MSAA i.e. the purpose of having shader/stream co-processors.

Xenos has it’s own issues with HDR FP16, hence you have XNA developers playing with RSX’s HDR optimisations i.e. Xenos is not a R600. Also, RSX’s HDR optimisations works on DX9 PCs e.g. HDR + AA. It would be a waste to throw a Geforce 7800/7900 (or an entire laptop with "fat" DX9 GPU) in the bin.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-Apr-2009 at 04:49 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Apr-2009 at 04:47 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 01-Apr-2009 at 04:46 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Lou
Yes, they will...
I just hope other manufacturers will mimic Nintendo's controls, doing otherwise would mean being utterly dumb and mindclosed.


@Briank
SNES had two main advantages over Amiga:
- Capcom directly porting it's games to it
- Memory cartdriges could contain more data than Floppy and DiskSwapping + Loading Times were not even remotely known by SNES players.


Technically they were the two most advanced gaming machines of their times here in Europe (Japan had SharpX68000 that blewed both away) yet differently in some aspects:
- Amiga had a more versatile GPU (Blitter + Copper) and a more powerful CPU (circa double speed)
- SNES had more nominal colours on screen and that RotateZoom chip that allowed for nice sprite effects.

Actually both machines had games that could not be properly done on the other:
Amiga500: Shadow of the Beast, Epic, Eye of the Beholder
SNES: Suoper Mario Kart, Other 3DLike games like Doom etc...

Actually bad arcade conversions on Amiga500 were mostly due to bad programming (I'm referring to Ghouls'n'Ghosts, Strider, StreetFighters... all proudly presented by USGold.
Each time other SoftwareHouses demonstrated Amiga could do a proper conversion by creating masterpieces like Assassin, Shadow Fighters)
Moreover Amiga500 had some games clearly recalling the effects of SNES special chip, like Awesome and Brian the Lion (Ah, the times when Psygnosis was a great software house!)

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou Quote: (SNIP for space) What about all the games the Amiga couldn't do that involved Mode 7? Refer to Amiga's "Brian the Lion" for Mode 7 style effects i.e. use Amiga’s GPU.

One game does not a platform make...

Donkey Kong Country would not be possible on the A500 in all its beauty. So there is my counter point the pretty graphics argument.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Nintendo_Entertainment_System
It was just superior in many was unquestionably despite the weaker cpu much like what we have with the 360 & PS3 debates...

@Lou

Quote:

Donkey Kong Country would not be possible on the A500 in all its beauty.

The game's graphics looked unique for a 16 bit platform, but only due to Rare buying for at the time high spec rendering computers. It was pre-rendered graphics, not rendered by the the Snes. In a similar way Stardust looked remarkable by using pre-rendered raytraced graphics, of course the Amiga 500 could not perform realtime raytracing.

Both platforms had its strenghts and weaknesses, the Amiga 500 technical advantages vs the Snes were mostly more available memory and faster processor, optional harddrive, more input options and such.

I like the Snes much more than the NES for a console, but of course by the time the Snes came out I already had an Amiga 4000. But still Super Mario World was one of my all-time favourite games (but IMO the platform did not really evolve much at all since this launch title, likewise with regard to Mario64 on the N64).

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Donkey Kong Country would not be possible on the A500 in all its beauty. The game's graphics looked unique for a 16 bit platform, but only due to Rare buying for at the time high spec rendering computers. It was pre-rendered graphics, not rendered by the the Snes. In a similar way Stardust looked remarkable by using pre-rendered raytraced graphics, of course the Amiga 500 could not perform realtime raytracing. Both platforms had its strenghts and weaknesses, the Amiga 500 technical advantages vs the Snes were mostly more available memory and faster processor, optional harddrive, more input options and such. I like the Snes much more than the NES for a console, but of course by the time the Snes came out I already had an Amiga 4000. But still Super Mario World was one of my all-time favourite games (but IMO the platform did not really evolve much at all since this launch title, likewise with regard to Mario64 on the N64).

If you followed the link, you'd see the gpu on the SNES was quite capable and well above Amiga even in the sprite department. Even extra half-brite mode only gave you 64 colors or roughly Megadrive-quality graphics.

That game might be possible on an AGA 256 color screen but not on an A500. The SNES launched in 1989 I believe, a full 2 years prior to AGA, iirc...

The pre-rendering means nothing if the system can't animate with that many colors on the screen at once. How do you think God of War was accomplished on the PS2? Does that lessen it's overall achievement?

@Lou

Quote:

If you followed the link, you'd see the gpu on the SNES was quite capable and well above Amiga even in the sprite department. Even extra half-brite mode only gave you 64 colors or roughly Megadrive-quality graphics.

Snes games usually had 16 color sprites with 2 parallax scroling layers, while most games had less than 100 colors on screen. Some Amiga games had hundreds of colors on screen, most games had 32 color sprites.

It's hard to compare, but the Snes was overall more colorful than the Amiga (1984/85 custom chips) or MegaDrive (1989), but the Amiga and MegaDrive were more powerful technically (with moving things around, parallax scrolling, AI and such).

Of course many Snes games had game specifc helping co-processors various cartridges took advantage of, often giving the impression the Snes was more powerful than it really was (especially regarding some key high profile games). But not everyone could afford to have as much memory and such co-processors on their cartridges.

Quote:

That game might be possible on an AGA 256 color screen but not on an A500. The SNES launched in 1989 I believe, a full 2 years prior to AGA, iirc...

The Super Famicon launched at the end of 1990 in Japan, the redesigned Snes launched in 1991 for the United States and in 1992 for Europe.

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Apr-2009 at 04:56 PM.

@ErikBauer

Quote:

@Briank SNES had two main advantages over Amiga

I think you have my name switched for someone elses? AFAIK I've stayed out of the SNES vs Amiga twist.

@BrianK

SO sorry! It was someone else, of course!
Beg your pardon

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

Firmware 2.7 is now available for the PS3.

It includes support for cross-game chatrooms, the most hyped feature by XBox 360 fans for why the XBox Live offering would be worth paying for subscriptions vs the PS3 much more extensive (Playstation Home, user created content, better PSN content, etc), powerful (such as lag free dedicated servers for many 1st/2nd party games) and free PS3 online offering.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/sceablog/videos/303/0

@ErikBauer

Quote:

SO sorry! It was someone else, of course! Beg your pardon

Erik Thanks. Not a problem here. I was more worried someone in the thread would look for me to respond on something I wasn't involved in.

@MikeB

Quote:

Of course many Snes games had game specifc helping co-processors various cartridges took advantage of, often giving the impression the Snes was more powerful than it really was (especially regarding some key high profile games). But not everyone could afford to have as much memory and such co-processors on their cartridges.

Nothing wrong with that as the main cost was actually RAM not fpu's or whatever was needed to accomplish the task for the game. It allowed Nintendo to sell the SNES much cheaper than an A500. These are techniques that MS and Sony need to learn. The initial point of entry is low and that's what matters to the consumer.

Top selling games of 2008 in Australia:



...I'm actually suprised at how low WoW:WotLK was...