@Lou

Quote:

Yet still GTA4 runs admirably well with regards to pop-up and at a higher resolution on the 360 than the PS3...

Development of the game was lead on the 360, still it has far more pop-in issues than the PS3 version. Most people on Beyond3D seem to prefer the way the PS3 version is being rendered (lighting and such and less aliasing). WIth regard to graphics assets the 360 version is not better in any way, upclose comparisons clearly show cleaner images.

Quote:

BluRay comes up short in peak access times and thus the HDD installation is required.

Depends on the game design (i.e. look at Uncharted). A harddrive is of course much faster than 360 DVDs and Blu-Ray, speed criticial data goes there. But with regard to streaming audio and graphics, constant reading speeds is a huge pro with regard to predictability and thus potential optimisation for data streaming.

Quote:

This doesn't mean I am calling you a liar, just that there are ways around things that you don't see.

I know the workarounds. For developers a default harddrive is more valuable than an optional harddrive or no harddrive. Developers have often underlined the desire for more space, such as the people at Rockstar. They state their future games won't fit on DVD, they made sacrifices to still fit on DVD with GTA IV.

@BrianK

Quote:

Blu-Rays on the PS3 do produce an annoying jet sound about 1/2 way through the movie. I can verify other PS3 users that I know have this similar problem. HD DVDs on the 360 do not produce this loud sound.

Then I am blessed with a super silent PS3. Anyway I have a 60GB PAL PS3, his questions regarded this configuration. The US unit may produce some additional heat.

Quote:

My understanding is that the 360 fan is variable where the PS3 fan is either off, quiet, or jet loud.

That's wrong, it's variable. On the 40 GB PS3 there's even a nice trick you can perform to put the vents into overdrive. This will make noise for a short while, this feature is intended to clean up the PS3's internals blowing out potential dust residing inside the console.

@MikeB

Quote:

For developers a default harddrive is more valuable than an optional harddrive or no harddrive. Developers have often underlined the desire for more space, such as the people at Rockstar. They state their future games won't fit on DVD, they made sacrifices to still fit on DVD with GTA IV

Multiple DVDs are possible and still less expensive then 1 Blu-Ray to manufacture. Microsoft has released a harddrive requirement for MMORPH, I'd expect others possible in the future.

I really can't see how this would be a huge issue. Does HDD exist if yes then cache this code. Those HDD owners would then see slightly better performance.

Quote:

Then I am blessed with a super silent PS3. Anyway I have a 60GB PAL PS3, his questions regarded this configuration. The US unit may produce some additional heat.

Perhaps there was a some sort of manufacturing glitch or fixes on the European model. As I've expressed the noisy 1/2 way through Blu-Ray issue a couple other people I know have the issue. One claimed no issue. Turned out he only gamed and never tried Blu-Ray. We had to go rent a Blu-Ray and when we did behold the 1.5 hours into the movie jet take off.

Quote:

This will make noise for a short while, this feature is intended to clean up the PS3's internals blowing out potential dust residing inside the console.

Reminder -- make sure your PS3 isn't too dirty or warranty denies may happen.

Last edited by BrianK on 18-Jun-2008 at 08:12 PM.

@Lou/BrianK

Quote:

Answer -- If you want a console either will do for gaming. If you have a HDTV and want Blu-Ray then the PS3 is the answer today. If it's online friends, ranking, rewards then the 360 is answer today.

As I think I've said, I want to avoid online gaming on the console. I've plenty of PC games for this and usualy when I'm playing online games I'm on my own in the house and so can use my games room to my hearts content. The console will be in the rarely used living room (Because its only got a TV in it. I'm a geek and therefore spend most of my time looking at monitors on my todd). Besides, there are armchairs and sofas in there and currently I'm spending all my time in an office chair.

Blu-Ray isn't currently a desire for movies as I'm not a huge fan of buying them (Once I've watched a film I seldom want to watch it again) and I'm too far away from a rental store for that to be much use (My DVD player isn't even plugged into anything), but I understand it gives more flexibility for game developers as its standard for the PS3 whereas the 360 only has them as (possible) extras.

Thats going to put off the 360 developers from having it as a baseline requirement for their games.

Quote:

Of course another option, if cost is no object, is build/buy a quiet PC and use that for gaming. It can also be used as a DVR and more general purpose computing. Amiga emulation on your TV for example.

I've got a games room full of computers which includes one such example - it hosts my entire music collection which it streams throughout the house - though its more limiting and fragile than a console for a livingroom enviroment (especialy when that livingroom is full of drunken/stoned musicians).

The point of the console is to have something with big chunky buttons and screens that you can use without the technology getting in the way. Setting up games on the PC is too clunky. Setting up controllers to work with PC games is also a bit of a pain. Changing these settings because the bloke who's visiting is used to the way he has it on his console at home after we've consumed several pints of Guiness is like some devilish task the TV show Big Brother has given you because it wants you to fail so you all get stressed out and provide more interesting footage.

All I want is something simple that you press a button and games appear. Something anyone can use without training. You know, simple like how it used to be when A500's were king.

I thought it would be easier to choose in all honesty. I think I'll go the PS3 way though. The risk of having to return the 360 because of hardware failure (even if it is supposed to be getting fixed - thats what they said the last time) is very off-putting.
M$ really shot themselves in the foot with that one. If it turns out to have been a bad choice then I could always get an Xbox later. And buying later seems to be sensible advice for buying a 360 anyhow.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 18-Jun-2008 at 09:10 PM.

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@SpaceDruid

Quote:

it hosts my entire music collection which it streams throughout the house

Another consideration then is the PS3 and 360 both can be streamed to. 360 prefers Windows solutions such as XP/Vista/MCE. But 3rd party OSes work too. Mac there's Connect 360 for the 360. Linux there's Twonky. PS3 is streamable too also.

Quote:

Changing these settings because the bloke who's visiting is used to the way he has it on his console at home after we've consumed several pints of Guiness is like some devilish task the TV show Big Brother has given you because it wants you to fail so you all get stressed out and provide more interesting footage

360 is a good option here. You setup a personal profile for your vistor(s) to use. If they're a more common visitor give them their own profile. When they login they can setup the controller anyway they want, say left hand controls, then no matter the game they play that control scheme defaults in for them. I haven't tried this with the PS3 perhaps something similar exists?

Of course what your friends play is always important. Perhaps they want to bring their games with. Or perhaps they appreciate more you have something they don't.

@BrianK

Quote:

Multiple DVDs are possible and still less expensive then 1 Blu-Ray to manufacture

At very low quantities (let's say 5K) DVD9 costs a little less than a buck to make. Blu-Ray disc at such quantities cost less than 2 bucks.

At mass production costs drops significantly, it's not a major issue. Blu-Ray movies can be bought at retail for less than 14 bucks, a game at launch usually costs about 60 bucks and is usually produced in much higher quantities currently (there are more movie titles out there, but there have been way more Blu-Ray disc games produced). Really the production buck is pulled way out of proportion.

The introduction of CDs had a huge production cost advantage over cartridges. The differences in costs between DVD9s and Blu-Ray discs is minimal.

Quote:

Does HDD exist if yes then cache this code. Those HDD owners would then see slightly better performance.

If you make your game rely on harddrive caching, the game will perform bad on units lacking a harddrive. Look developers aren't criticizing the existance of the Core for nothing. It's not as easy as you make it out to be, you can't design one 360 game which would simply stream a hundred MB less texture data on a core 360 in a jiffy than it does on a premium console. It does not work like that for developers, the core holds back not only premium and elite potential, it even effects multiplatform PS3 games development.

Quote:

Turned out he only gamed and never tried Blu-Ray.

I on the other hand do use the PS3 for Blu-Ray movies.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jun-2008 at 10:14 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jun-2008 at 10:02 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

If you make your game rely on harddrive caching, the game will perform bad on units lacking a harddrive.

Take Oblivion for instance if one downloads the new content it goes to the HDD and runs from the HDD. Clearly they've been able to make use of both HDD and DVD for their game. Yes in this case non-HDD people don't get that content. However, I can't see why one couldn't put the same logic in a game. Check for a content cache if it doesn't exist load it from DVD. Perhaps MIcrosoft doesn't allow this and thus artifically cripples some games. Though again this is changing as MMORPH have been allowed to require HDD.

Thinking of your 'streaming less texture' example. That wasn't what I said. But taking this point why not load better textures on HDD and give a game higher resolution? Seems very doable call the larger texture file the same name on the HDD cache. Again I can see Microsoft wanting a consistent experience and outlawing this sort of practice.

Quote:

Look developers aren't criticizing the existance of the Core for nothing

Yup a limited handful are. GTA IV said they had to work around the limitation as Microsoft wants games to run off the DVD. But, again there is add-on content coming which is HDD only.

@BrianK

Quote:

Clearly they've been able to make use of both HDD and DVD for their game.

Look it's not about being able to do something. Yes, you can make a A500 game which can take some advantage of 1 MB RAM and still run on a 0.5 MB RAM unit. But designing a game for 1 MB to begin with, not being able to run on a 0.5 MB RAM A500 at all is something different.

A more extreme example, you can make a game which runs on both 68000 and 68060, taking some additional advantage if the Amiga is equipped with a 060. But surely you agree to make a game which requires a 060 and does not need to run on a 68000 as well holds much more potential.

Just a simple example. To be able to rely on the availability of harddrive cache is big.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Jun-2008 at 10:22 PM.

@SpaceDruid

I don't think you should be afraid of the 360 breaking down. The currently
manufactured model seems to be quite safe.
I think most problems since past 6-7 months is fanboys trying to put the 360 down.

I'd say choose 360 if:

* You haven't got the cash for a PS3
* You REALLY like FPS games
* Online gaming is the one and only thing

Otherwise get a PS3!

They are currently getting most of the same games. But the future looks a bit
brighter for the PS3 IMO. But it's not like the 360 is dead or anything. They're getting
some good games aswell and most will be multiple platform anyway.

The noice level is quite a bit lower on 40GB PS3's compared to 360. The 60GB is
however delivers much more dB and could very well be noicier than the newer
batches of 360's. How the newer 80GB performs I have no clue.

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New firmware for PS3 out! 2.36, fixes stability for certain games.
2.40 officially announced, in-game XMB and trophies among other things.
Info can be found at Playstation blog.

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@MikeB

Uh Mike... Just remembered you're wrong about not using the HDD for games. Developers do use the HDD for cache and can do so optionally when the HDD is available.

The less clear one is the x,y,y,x clear the harddrive cache code. This is done from the storage blade. It clears up some issues such as hanging in Bioshock. Removing old cached data allows fresh data to be written and stored. In the case of BioShock it stops hanging. Certainly Bioshock is using the HDD to cache some sort of content and loads and in turn this betters the experience for HDD loaders.

One clearer one Oblivion hangs. Holding A while booting actually clears out the 3GB specifically used by Oblivion for caching on HDD systems. Users of core report slower and more frequent loads for Oblivion then HDD users.

A third indication of a HDD cache for games. Mass Effect had some problems on some systems. People reportedly tried to clear the cache. The response from the manufacture is that they choose to not use the 360 caching ability so clearing the cache will have no effect. What?? Clearly they know what they are talking about. Wouldn't they said the 360 has no caching if one didn't exist not 'we choose not to use'? Signs say yes.

I think my idea for the 360 -- check for HDD existence and if so then cache -- seems to be a highly likely option.

It's too bad Microsoft won't release #s. The #s I've seen is 90%+ of 360s have a HDD. Even cores as it's an add-on option later which is a fairly popular seller.

@Samwel

Quote:

I don't think you should be afraid of the 360 breaking down. The currently manufactured model seems to be quite safe.

Well thats what I thought and why I decided to try looking at consoles again, but a quick review of the amazon.com reviews of the new model still shows lots of returns of faulty equipment. If you look at the dates of the reviews, you can see its a steady stream of faults and shows no sign of getting better as time passes.

Perhaps they (M$) might get it right this summer with their next try, but right now I'd rather rely on my new (to me) 1974 sports car to take me to London without breaking down, than an Xbox 360 to let me drive across Liberty City in a taxi.

Quote:

I think most problems since past 6-7 months is fanboys trying to put the 360 down.

Some of the amazon reviews which talk about unreliability are four and five star reviews, so even the 360 fanboys are having problems.


Quote:

I'd say choose 360 if: * You haven't got the cash for a PS3 * You REALLY like FPS games * Online gaming is the one and only thing

So PS3 it is then. Now if I can just find somebody who is actually selling them! Is there a worldwide shortage on PS3 parts? Lots of second hand PS3 on amazon.co.uk but no new ones. Damn it to hell, doesn't Microsoft or Sony want people to buy their consoles or something? This console club is more exclusive than mensa!

Does anyone know a decent UK online retailer that sells PS3s? I'm a little remote so its not like I can just nip out to a shop and get one.

Quote:

The noice level is quite a bit lower on 40GB PS3's compared to 360. The 60GB is however delivers much more dB and could very well be noicier than the newer batches of 360's. How the newer 80GB performs I have no clue.

I think I might get a 40GB. I don't need backward compatability since I never had a PS2 and its easy to stick in another HDD, and the noise level is unexpected since I was under the impression the 60GB version had more efficient smaller die chips than the older 40's.

Any other major differences between the 40GB and the 60GB?

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@BrianK

Quote:

Uh Mike... Just remembered you're wrong about not using the HDD for games. Developers do use the HDD for cache and can do so optionally when the HDD is available.

Either you didn't carefully read what I have written or you don't understand what I have written. As that's not what I have been saying.

Quote:

It's too bad Microsoft won't release #s. The #s I've seen is 90%+ of 360s have a HDD. Even cores as it's an add-on option later which is a fairly popular seller.

Yes, that's what I pointed out to you in earlier discussions. Making it IMO even more sad the Core 360 exists. It would have been much better to just have a harddrive in every HD console out there.

Last edited by MikeB on 19-Jun-2008 at 08:23 AM.

@Thread

Damn it to hell and back. Screw modern consoles, I've just bought a PS2 with a shedload of games for less than the cheapest of 360's and I know its going to be reliable as well as having an excellent back catalogue.

I'll just wait till GTA4 comes out on the PC (or buy a PS3 when the PS4 comes out). A good game is a good game regardless of what year it came out.

All hail the luddite!

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@SpaceDruid

The PS2 game God of War 2 is one of the best games I have for my PS3.

The PS2 probably has the biggest games library of any games console out there and is still well supported.

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

SpaceDruid wrote: @Thread I've just bought a PS2 with a shedload of games for less than the cheapest of 360's and I know its going to be reliable

...do more research...

@Lou

The slimline PS2 is a very reliable console. The PS2 never suffered from reliability issues to the extend the 360 is providing consumers with. If it would Sony would never have been able to reach up to a 140 million console sales like the console will.

@Lou

Quote:

...do more research...

Hey if it does break, I'll just buy another, It only cost 25 quid.

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Here on Amigaworld is has been often stated that the MGS4 cutscenes are pre-rendered.

Here some interesting footage of a briefing cutscene:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0RFMEyegr5U

You can see you can use the robot to move around in the cutscene, looking at the briefing from different angles. That's of course not possible in a pre-rendered FMV.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: AMD’s ATI division, for example, unveiled its Firestream 9250 card, based on the upcoming RV770 GPU, which will be part of the 4800 series of graphics cards. According to AMD, the new GPU can deliver 1.2 TFlops per RV770 GPU. 4x Crossfire X configuration is good for almost 5 TFlops So much for Cell power...

NVidia Geforce 8x and 9x's Fold@Home GPU2(beta) PPD numbers
http://foldingforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3193&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

Killed both Radeon HD and CELL in PPD..

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jun-2008 at 02:24 PM.

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