@Hammer

Quote:

Motorola would still pull the rug under CBM. CBM was looking at alternative CPU ISAs.

Yeah the Dec Alpha Amiga would have rocked! Having the 20/20 vision of hindsight though seeing this option likely would have still spelled doom for the great Amiga platform. Maybe they should port the Amiga to the Itanium.

@ErikBauer

Quote:

Of course GFX chips have evolved (even if the Copper is still Unique in it's aspect), in fact GFX chip evolution today is seen as a given, not a revolution anymore.

Larrabee might be an example of new revolution in GPU. Though I think in many ways it can be argued this is an evolution of CPUs. How about the Ageia PPU? Though this is now likely to be integrated in future GPUs.

Hasn't rasterization run it's course and the next revolution will be raytracing?

Last edited by BrianK on 04-Apr-2009 at 03:40 PM.

@BrianK

Realtime Raytracing? Heck, yes!
That would be another revolution, even if I'd prefer viable 3D Glasses + proper motion control input.

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@ErikBauer

Quote:

Realtime Raytracing? Heck, yes! That would be another revolution, even if I'd prefer viable 3D Glasses + proper motion control input.

IMO in the next 5 years we are going to see real time desktop ray tracing. Will this hit the 8th gen consoles? I think unlikely but perhaps. Since the PS3 will have a 10 year lifespan maybe it can sustain Sony to the point that the PS4 could a late comer to the market with the bonus of being first real time ray tracing console. In effect Sony would skip 8th gen (assuming Nin and MS release non-real time raytracing consoles) and effectively this could be considered a 9th gen. (All guesses of course if I really knew what 2012+ would bring I'd soon be a billionaire.)

Quote:

if I'd prefer viable 3D Glasses + proper motion control input

Proper motion contol I'd think could come next gen. This shouldn't be too difficult. Apple for example has gyroscopes in it's handhelds. Certainly a more intelligent controller than the Wii will exist.

3D Glasses -- well are as sucky as they were on the Amiga nearly 20 years ago. I think the improvement here might have to wait until screens come built into contact lenses, so what another 10 years off. (Everything unknown is but 10 years away.)

The Wii is an interesting animal. I've played it a few times. Wii bowling seems to detect speed of the ball. But underhand doesn't arc the ball up? Definitely a lack of detection, at least in that game.

@BrianK

You see... i think Wii is misunderstood by some people for 2 main reasons:

1)Some gamers tend to expect way too much from both Wii games and Wii controllers. I mean, think about Red Steel. Looking at the promo people started to imagine a perfect immersion in the game and a 1:1 control method for the swordplay. In fact Wiimote could not provide such an immersion but it was a huge step forward from Keyboard + Mouse, just people expected something different.

2)Other gamers tend to think the Wii is just a jimnik and can't be used to play true and immersive games just because of tons of party games being programmed for it.
I mean: there also are great regular games! Think about Metroid, Mario Galaxy, Zelda, Force Unleashed, Mad World, RE4... and I could go on.

I think a third category is formed by game programmers that tend to underuse it's GPU and put some jimnik controls in a compilation of minigames or in a bad port just because they are umprepared to use Wii controls in a proper way. And I can understand why: Wii controls are so different that require a good open mind to be exploited in a good gaming mechanism, and I think the first games with that level of Wiimote integration are just coming out now (Force Unleashed, Mad World, Indiana Jones and the Staff of Kings... in a lesser way a good attempt at wii controls have been made with Alone in the Dark 5 too bad the game itself was pretty ugly).

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

Good reading material from GDC 2009:

* A Killzone 2 Case Study:

http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vault/gdc09/slides/GDC2009-vdLeeuw-KZ2SPUsCaseStudy.pdf

Insomniac:

* Physics: http://www.gdconf.com/conference/Tutorial%20Handouts/200_insomniac/gdc09_insomniac_physics.pdf
* Prelighting: http://www.gdconf.com/conference/Tutorial%20Handouts/200_insomniac/gdc09_insomniac_prelighting.pdf
* Software for Cell: http://www.gdconf.com/conference/Tutorial%20Handouts/200_insomniac/gdc09_insomniac_software_for_the_cell.pdf
* Gameplay: http://www.gdconf.com/conference/Tutorial%20Handouts/200_insomniac/gdc09_insomniac_spu_gameplay.pdf
* SPU Wrangling: http://www.gdconf.com/conference/Tutorial%20Handouts/200_insomniac/gdc09_insomniac_spu_wrangling.pdf

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @ErikBauer Quote: Of course GFX chips have evolved (even if the Copper is still Unique in it's aspect), in fact GFX chip evolution today is seen as a given, not a revolution anymore. Larrabee might be an example of new revolution in GPU. Though I think in many ways it can be argued this is an evolution of CPUs. How about the Ageia PPU? Though this is now likely to be integrated in future GPUs.

Ageia PhysX software is running on NVIDIA CUDA.

Quote:

Hasn't rasterization run it's course and the next revolution will be raytracing?

Hybrid of both rasterization and raytracing.

As for Intel Larrabee , refer to http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38145/135/
"Watch out, Larrabee: Radeon 4800 supports a 100% ray-traced pipeline."

_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Lou

Quote:

Ok, now show me one game that does both. This is my point. Even the PS3 can high-light particular technical superiorities over the 360, but show me games that actually use it all. This is where the 360 shines over the PS3, this is where the SNES shines over the Amiga.

One problem, the SPE is between the CPU and GPU (cited Radeon X1900) in programmability and instruction set math specialization.

Quote:

On paper, the orignal Xbox was superior to the Gamecube in every way, in actuallity, the Gamecube pushed more in-game real-world polygons.

The system has to be balance i.e. Xbox1 was capable of Doom3, FarCry Instinct.

DeadSpace demo on the original Xbox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOBsih6Os0

DeadSpace on Wii
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNYwpbrtdlE&feature=related

Quote:

Yes, we should look at the system as a whole, I agree. I'm amazed that you semi-defended the PS3 there. But infact, that is my point and that is why the PS3 is not superior to the 360 when looked at as a whole system.

Like the lead designer of IBM’s PPE CPU, I take the view that both Xbox 360 and PS3 are about even.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: @ErikBauer Quote: ErikBauer wrote: @Lou Of course GFX chips have evolved (even if the Copper is still Unique in it's aspect), in fact GFX chip evolution today is seen as a given, not a revolution anymore. In fact on screen differences between same game's version on Amiga, Atari, SNES and Genesis were much more evident than today's comparisons from PS3-X360 versions of the same game. Interestly, looking at the GC/Wii gpu core, it has fixed-function "shading" (aka the TEV unit), but essentially it's the evolution of copper lists down to the texture level. However, the fad is "programmable shader units"...

The primary existence of ATI and NVIDIA are to offer GPUs. There’s very little chance that CBM could have matched ATI’s and NVIDIA’s corporate focus. Why have specialized chips when you specialized corporations i.e. allocating its entire corporate resource on designing GPUs?

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Hammer Quote: Motorola would still pull the rug under CBM. CBM was looking at alternative CPU ISAs. Yeah the Dec Alpha Amiga would have rocked! Having the 20/20 vision of hindsight though seeing this option likely would have still spelled doom for the great Amiga platform. Maybe they should port the Amiga to the Itanium.

LOL at game box based on Itanium.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer
Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou Quote: Ok, now show me one game that does both. This is my point. Even the PS3 can high-light particular technical superiorities over the 360, but show me games that actually use it all. This is where the 360 shines over the PS3, this is where the SNES shines over the Amiga. One problem, the SPE is between the CPU and GPU (cited Radeon X1900) in programmability and instruction set math specialization. Quote: On paper, the orignal Xbox was superior to the Gamecube in every way, in actuallity, the Gamecube pushed more in-game real-world polygons. The system has to be balance i.e. Xbox1 was capable of Doom3, FarCry Instinct. DeadSpace demo on the original Xbox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuOBsih6Os0 DeadSpace on Wii http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNYwpbrtdlE&feature=related Quote: Yes, we should look at the system as a whole, I agree. I'm amazed that you semi-defended the PS3 there. But infact, that is my point and that is why the PS3 is not superior to the 360 when looked at as a whole system. Like the lead designer of IBM’s PPE CPU, I take the view that both Xbox 360 and PS3 are about even.

I still see the 360 as the superior system for gaming because the overall system design seems better designed where as the PS3 seems like you always need to work around bottlenecks... The PS3 is for people who don't want to buy a gaming console AND a blu ray player...

Nice footage though, Dead Space Extraction looks interesting...

Last edited by Lou on 06-Apr-2009 at 03:39 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

I still see the 360 as the superior system for gaming because the overall system design seems better designed

What? Like the GPU overheating and causing RRoD ever since it's launch?!! The 360 was rushed to market and might be a more a more predictably designed machine following standard multicore CPU design etc, but I certainly wouldn't say it's a BETTER designed machine!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

As with other NVIDIA mobile G8X GPUs, my Geforce 8600M GT (ASUS G1S laptop) suffered a "black screen of death". On the upside, it was swap for a Geforce 9500M GS i.e. changed to ASUS G1Sn mainboard.

Last edited by Hammer on 07-Apr-2009 at 01:13 PM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Lou Quote: I still see the 360 as the superior system for gaming because the overall system design seems better designed What? Like the GPU overheating and causing RRoD ever since it's launch?!! The 360 was rushed to market and might be a more a more predictably designed machine following standard multicore CPU design etc, but I certainly wouldn't say it's a BETTER designed machine!

The 360 was designed well but manufactured poorly. Some of the manufacturing contractors used cheaper solder, we know this. As for the disc-scratching, I haven't seen one vertically mounted harddrive that didn't... A console's optical drive gets used alot more than a pc's...so the problem becomes more prevelant...and only some PC's have vertical mounted optical drives...

PS, there have been plenty of drive failures with the PS3 as well.

WiiMotion Plus will give you that 1:1 response most felt should have been included from the get go.

http://videogames.yahoo.com/feature/new-wii-controller-proving-quot-too-responsive-quot-/1302240

Perhaps now that Wii production costs have dropped 45% since launch, they could include it in a future Wii bundle.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/04/07/analyst-says-wii-manufacturing-costs-down-45-since-launch/

@Lou

Quote:

The PS3 is for people who don't want to buy a gaming console AND a blu ray player...

I think you meant to say, the PS3 is only interesting to people who want both want to watch Blu-Ray movies and play games.

However there are plenty of gamers who appreciate the extra content or quality can provide due to available space. Developers do as well.

Also people appreciate the drive being silent and disc being scratch resistant. Although every consumer electronics device can fail, the 360 has been extremely failure prone, court documents show Microsoft knew about RROD and disc scratching issues before the platform launched, I think that's pretty damning.

@ thread

An interesting SPU article with regard to God of War 3:

http://www.tilander.org/aurora/comp/gdc2009_Tilander_Filippov_SPU.pdf

@ErikBauer

Quote:

i think Wii is misunderstood by some people for 2 main reasons: 1)Some gamers tend to expect way too much from both Wii games and Wii controllers. I mean, think about Red Steel. Looking at the promo people started to imagine a perfect immersion in the game and a 1:1 control method for the swordplay

I think the Wii controller was decent for a console. Certainly a 1:1 control for a sword game would not be fun for the majority of people. Why? I have to assume the majority of people are not sword experts. Games have to be built to appease an appropriate number of people. Take Ninja Gaiden on the Xbox. It kicked butt. Even God had problems. If that had true sword play 0 people would ever complete it.

Saying that a certain level in some games is also expected. Bowling ball goes up if you lob it. Not on the Wii. Awful, IMO. So one does need a certain amount of realism too. It's the developer's job to find that balance for their game.

Personally, I have nothing for or against the Wii. I just don't have enough experience to be comfortable in an ending opinion. I seem to have less time for the 360 let alone the PS3. Adding a Wii would waste even more money... Perhaps next gen I'll do Nintendo again.



@HAMMER
Quote:

Ageia PhysX software is running on NVIDIA CUDA.

I believe NVIDIA bought Ageia? Do you know if the PhysX is running at or above the Ageia accellerator card?

Quote:

Hybrid of both rasterization and raytracing.

Yup can't wait!

Quote:

I take the view that both Xbox 360 and PS3 are about even

Owning and gaming on both I agree. The PS3 has 1 perhaps 2 games that I bet may be difficult for the 360. So I don't see where people see the PS3 as way beyond the 360. Perhaps they need to actually game on the 360.


@Lou..
You're right to BigD. The 360 is well designed for gaming. Even if it was not well manufactured or quality tested. Newer Falcons take care of the overheating problems.



@MikeB
Thanks for the link on using the SPU for the PS3. I see many if not most the statements here apply equally well to a multi-core CPU (Xenon for example).

@BrianK

Yeah, Bowling is maybe the worst between the WiiSports games.
But then you've to think it is the first game to be out for Wii, a non perfect implementation of motion cotrols has to be taken in account.

And I do think the same of you about 1:1 swordplay, unless you practice Budo, Kendo or Kali you won't stand a chance in such a game.

_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

@BrianK

Quote:

You're right to BigD. The 360 is well designed for gaming. Even if it was not well manufactured or quality tested. Newer Falcons take care of the overheating problems.

Where's the proof about the Falcons solving this problem? Can you now make sure you are buying the Falcon model in the shops? It's a farce Microsoft should have let customers know that the new model is available and made them a different colour or something! There's no way I'd buy faulty hardware like the old XBox 360s whatever the warantee!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @BrianK Quote: You're right to BigD. The 360 is well designed for gaming. Even if it was not well manufactured or quality tested. Newer Falcons take care of the overheating problems. Where's the proof about the Falcons solving this problem? Can you now make sure you are buying the Falcon model in the shops? It's a farce Microsoft should have let customers know that the new model is available and made them a different colour or something! There's no way I'd buy faulty hardware like the old XBox 360s whatever the warantee!!

You can tell by a serial # on the unit.
There is proof as a new defect has taken the lead and MikeB even posted about it...