@MikeB

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Ex-Microsoft Studio Boss: 'Natal Will Fail'

Sony has missed predictions why can't others. We'll see how correct his prediction in various ways. Inital sales, Christmas sales, yearly sales...Or of course lack of sales.

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So far they haven't shown good examples how Natal would work properly with games XBox fans are know to love (Halo, Fable, Gears of War, etc) unlike Sony.

I assume you mean older titles? Microsoft has said that games would need to be updated to use the NATAL or developed a new. As for newer games of the same popular series, some of the Fable III concepts were demonstrated with the Natal last E3. Search your favorite video site for Natal and Milo.

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Actually IMO they have shown nothing interesting so far.

Insert PS3+Wand and I agree.

Here's how I'm looking the question. Existing owners are likely to stay with their consoles and buy that particular unit. I don't see a lot of PS3 and 360 cross over for either of these controllers. The questions I see are -- Will the Wii owners be driven to move to another platform? And what will drive people who haven't opted into this gen of consoles yet choose? At least in the US the opinion seem to be more favorable Natal. How it all plays out well sales will tell us this Christmas. All controllers - Wiimote / Wand / Natal seem to be for the casual gamer. A large marketplace and the Wii's dominance. The hardcore isn't going to move to the Wii. The large general causal gamer is ripe pool which Sony and Microsoft hope to dip their toes into.

Related as 3D is coming to gaming. An interesting post on why 3d is bad by Film critic Ebert

Last edited by BrianK on 28-May-2010 at 09:10 PM.

@MikeB

More clarification -- http://xbox-360.nowgamer.com/news/3288/ex-microsoft-studio-boss-clarifies-natal-comments

"I was VERY impressed by the potential of Natal, but my experience at Sega taught me that splintering your target market with peripherals is an extremely risky proposition at best. Most console peripherals don't succeeed. A path to either bundling or integration for Natal technology, however, could be transformative."

@BrianK

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Search your favorite video site for Natal and Milo.

The E3 video was fake. In reality the Milo experience at E3 was very limited (and directed behind the scenes) according to various hands-on accounts.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: Search your favorite video site for Natal and Milo. The E3 video was fake. In reality the Milo experience at E3 was very limited (and directed behind the scenes) according to various hands-on accounts.

MikeB here goes the circle dance. You stated there was no example..
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So far they haven't shown good examples how Natal would work properly

This was clearly an example of how Natal will work. What is an example? Dictionary says -- an example is an instance serving for illustration. This was a clear representation and therefore is an example and a good one.

@BrianK

The Milo video is not Fable gameplay!

@MikeB

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The Milo video is not Fable gameplay!

You are right it is not.

It is a 'good example(s) how Natal would work'

@BrianK

I said: "So far they haven't shown good examples how Natal would work properly with games XBox fans are know to love (Halo, Fable, Gears of War, etc) unlike Sony."

Sony has shown existing games working well with Playstation Home. Milo is a work in progress and we don't know if existing users will like a Milo-like game experience, apart from maybe pedos.

Hopefully they have something to show at the upcoming E3 other than a faked video. Remember originally I complimented Microsoft on their achievement (looked like amazing AI), only after I got the know the truth of the demo I backtracked on that.

I think considering how limited the application really was at E3 last year, we shouldn't expect wonders within 1 year. The actual gameplay minigames so far have been laughable, even years old eyetoy had far better examples.

@BrianK

This is a good example of Playstation Move that's actually real (ordinary people used it like this at shows):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORYSSQZTzbE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9fbhGhEOqA

Last edited by MikeB on 29-May-2010 at 06:37 PM.

@BrianK

MikeB:

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So far they haven't shown good examples how Natal would work properly with games XBox fans are know to love (Halo, Fable, Gears of War, etc) unlike Sony.

I already linked to a demo of SOCOM 4 a few posts back, here for example LittleBigPlantet:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B584ytUdxrs

Now understand what I meant? Milo is very different, will existing XBox fans like it and how much freedom will you actually have, how intelligent will Milo really be? Will Milo respond properly to different languages, misfigured or handicapped people, etc. It all remains to be seen at this point (we have had absolutely 0% real footage so far), but due to the way they presented it I feel very confident Milo is going to underdeliver nomatter what.

Last edited by MikeB on 29-May-2010 at 06:36 PM.

Real Natal painting tech demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie02k3eAvxY

Horrible lag here. And it looks like you have to be a rocket scientist to achieve a kindergarten quality painting....

In another demo they showed Burnout paradise, where you would lift your hands up and pretend you are holding a steering wheel. Not only did he suck, I can promise you you won't be able to game like that for long without risking to have to visit a physical therapist afterwards

Honestly nothing really good has been shown so far. Laughably pathetic actually... Sony would have been slaughtered online if they ever did such tech demos for an eyetoy 2.0 and rightly so! Sadly Microsoft gets the 'gloves on' treatment from most of the US press.

@MikeB

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Now understand what I meant?

Thanks. You didn't quite say what you meant. There's a difference between an actual game and an example of how it would work. The later could be a demo, mock up video, or even a description. As for Milo and Kate there were people who went through a minor demo. Milo repeated their name and identified the colors of their clothes correctly. So, not quite 0%. While I linked to an example of gameplay people did get to experience interactivity with the Natal. Rumors are E3 will announce this will be called the Wave. Oh and as for the 'gloves' on Microsoft, don't worry Sony's been getting the same treatment. Both have had overly positive news in mainstream media in the US.

Last edited by BrianK on 30-May-2010 at 01:23 AM.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK This is a good example of Playstation Move that's actually real (ordinary people used it like this at shows):

So in fact Sony's Move + EyeToy combo brings to PS3 both Wiimote and Natal potentials... very very interesting!

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Last edited by ErikBauer on 30-May-2010 at 02:00 PM.
Last edited by ErikBauer on 30-May-2010 at 02:00 PM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK I said: "So far they haven't shown good examples how Natal would work properly with games XBox fans are know to love (Halo, Fable, Gears of War, etc) unlike Sony." Sony has shown existing games working well with Playstation Home. Milo is a work in progress and we don't know if existing users will like a Milo-like game experience, apart from maybe pedos. Hopefully they have something to show at the upcoming E3 other than a faked video. Remember originally I complimented Microsoft on their achievement (looked like amazing AI), only after I got the know the truth of the demo I backtracked on that. I think considering how limited the application really was at E3 last year, we shouldn't expect wonders within 1 year. The actual gameplay minigames so far have been laughable, even years old eyetoy had far better examples.

Actually, last E3, they stated NATAL would not be practical for FPS/high action games so I don't know why you are going on about this. NATAL is targetted at the casual (Wii) gamer. In fact they said it wouldn't make sense to patch older games but to make new experiences.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: Real Natal painting tech demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie02k3eAvxY Horrible lag here. And it looks like you have to be a rocket scientist to achieve a kindergarten quality painting.... In another demo they showed Burnout paradise, where you would lift your hands up and pretend you are holding a steering wheel. Not only did he suck, I can promise you you won't be able to game like that for long without risking to have to visit a physical therapist afterwards Honestly nothing really good has been shown so far. Laughably pathetic actually... Sony would have been slaughtered online if they ever did such tech demos for an eyetoy 2.0 and rightly so! Sadly Microsoft gets the 'gloves on' treatment from most of the US press.

Nothing is stopping NATAL from working like MOVE.
MS could hand you a colored steering wheel to hold and by analyzing it's orientation in 3D space it could figure out if it was turned to turn the car and tilting forward and back could affect braking/acceleration. NATAL would not be limited to a 'sphere' like MOVE is.
Those plastics addons to the WiiRemote made some of those games more immersive. MOVE seems to lack this ability.

Nobody cares about seeing themselves holding a steering where (ala augmented reality), they want to feel like they are holding a wheel and they want to control the car. This is why I said, where is the game in 2 men facing the screen looking at themselves waving swords around.

@Lou

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they stated NATAL would not be practical for FPS/high action games

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they said it wouldn't make sense to patch older games but to make new experiences

That actually backs up the points (some potentially critical concerns) I made above.

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Nothing is stopping NATAL from working like MOVE.

Playstation move does make sense for FPS games as has been demonstrated.

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MS could hand you a colored steering wheel to hold

Why would anyone prefer that over a normal force feedback steering wheel?

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NATAL would not be limited to a 'sphere' like MOVE is.

What do you mean both project Natal and the Playstation eye are camera based solutions tracking body movement. The Playstation eye can also do facial recognition and analysis just like Natal. In Gran Turismo 5 it will be used for headtracking for example.

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Nobody cares about seeing themselves holding a steering where

What do you mean by that? That doesn't need to be so, I don't think they will be doing that in Gran Turismo 5, but it could IMO be cool to see yourself looking into the car mirrors or so.

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MOVE seems to lack this ability.

Techically it could be done, but covering up the lights would of course disable one big benefit over a Wii-mote, like on the Wii the PS3 would not know where the mutliple controllers actually are and hence could only detect movements.

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NATAL is targetted at the casual (Wii) gamer

You are probably the number 1 Nintendo fan on this forum, what actual demo you have seen so far makes you want to invest in a XBox 360 with Natal? According to you it's not for satisfying gaming experiences current XBox gamers love, but it's geared towards people like you.

Last edited by MikeB on 31-May-2010 at 07:38 PM.

Some examples of how body tracking is done on the Playstation Eye:

Head tracking (as will be done for Gran Turismo 5, only using Playstation Eye software)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFN8cW1mSVY

How it could look:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SDGG9HhbgQ

Facial recognition with the Playstation Eye:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOtPVof2K94

There are various different potentials here. The PS3 camera is fast and the Cell extremely fast to process such data, it will be interesting to see how Microsoft will position project Natal as something that will truly distinguish itself from what is already possible today on existing hardware. Natal also takes quite a bit of the XBox 360's already limited processing power, I can imagine PS3 software which could actually render Natal's uses nothing really special due to the PS3's much more powerful and more efficient processing power and through smart software. Same goes for voice recognition.

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jun-2010 at 01:11 AM.

@MikeB

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Natal also takes quite a bit of the XBox 360's already limited processing power

But, let's be fair you have no clue what 'quite a bit' means.

Could the Cell do it better? Bring it! Let's see the sales figures. We'll talk again about Move and Wave next summer.

@BrianK

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Bring it! Let's see the sales figures. We'll talk again about Move and Wave next summer.

Fighting talk

_________________
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@BrianK

Well I know the Xenon's real world performance is quite a bit lower than its theoretical peak performance (unlike the Cell, which can perform near full efficiency) and project Natal is said to use "10 to 15% of the Xbox 360's computing resources for Natal-related processing".

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: they stated NATAL would not be practical for FPS/high action games Quote: they said it wouldn't make sense to patch older games but to make new experiences That actually backs up the points (some potentially critical concerns) I made above. Quote: Nothing is stopping NATAL from working like MOVE. Playstation move does make sense for FPS games as has been demonstrated.

My point is, we know MOVE can work close to how Wii works for FPS and we know NATAL is supposed to be controller-less. Why the constant regurgitation?

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Quote: MS could hand you a colored steering wheel to hold Why would anyone prefer that over a normal force feedback steering wheel? Quote: NATAL would not be limited to a 'sphere' like MOVE is. What do you mean both project Natal and the Playstation eye are camera based solutions tracking body movement. The Playstation eye can also do facial recognition and analysis just like Natal. In Gran Turismo 5 it will be used for headtracking for example.

NATAL has 2 camera so it can identify objects in 3d space more easily without the big glowy ball requirement. A force-feedback steering wheels is not for casuals. A Wii-like steering wheel would fit the bill and be less expensive than asking Casuals to spend an extra$75 for 1 driving game.

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Quote: Nobody cares about seeing themselves holding a steering where What do you mean by that? That doesn't need to be so, I don't think they will be doing that in Gran Turismo 5, but it could IMO be cool to see yourself looking into the car mirrors or so.

Oh come on. Useless. If you are looking at yourself, you are not racing.
http://kotaku.com/5543434/you-wont-believe-how-much-detail-gt5-has
GT5 takes polished shortcuts. Shortcuts none the less... In fact Dirt 2 does reflections better as one poster pointed out.

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Quote: MOVE seems to lack this ability. Techically it could be done, but covering up the lights would of course disable one big benefit over a Wii-mote, like on the Wii the PS3 would not know where the mutliple controllers actually are and hence could only detect movements.

Which is all you need for racing games....jeez....
My point is those plastic addons make it more immersive...something MOVE's controllers won't be able to replicate in function because addons were something Nintendo planned in advance and something Sony's half-arsed copy-cat attempt left out (along with direct screen pointing).

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Quote: NATAL is targetted at the casual (Wii) gamer You are probably the number 1 Nintendo fan on this forum, what actual demo you have seen so far makes you want to invest in a XBox 360 with Natal? According to you it's not for satisfying gaming experiences current XBox gamers love, but it's geared towards people like you.

Once again you are wrong.
I like the Wii, but I'm a hard core gamer.
NATAL is not for me. I just like pointing out how bad your Sony fanboyism is.
MOVE and PS3 offer nothing over my Wii + PC combination.

Last edited by Lou on 01-Jun-2010 at 12:54 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 01-Jun-2010 at 12:45 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 01-Jun-2010 at 12:40 PM.