@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @wegster Quote: Bioshock - great game, once again, another game better than R2 in my opinion. Microsoft paid for this to be timed exclusive. Complain to Microsoft all you want, I doubt they will listen...

I see. So, you're saying Sony blew it, again? Got it. You could have just agreed. Part of the lack of compelling reason to buy a PS3 is exactly that - lack of exclusives, as well as not getting other titles in a reasonable time. The consumer doesn't care why, they care- 'why can't I get this game on the PS3, or when it comes out a year+ later, why is it double the cost or more vs the PC or 360?'

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Bioshock is a great and well polished game, great alternative horror atmosphere with many well pre-scripted events and story telling! But in terms of shooting fun and of course online, for me Resistance 2 is well above that game. For example the helicopter crash site part of Resistance 2, so much is going on on screen at once. It feels like a full blown war, Bioshock provides a very different game experience with its much smaller but well polished environments. Or for example the Marauder or Mother Spider make Big Daddy look like a Dwarf Daddy in comparison. It's hard to directly compare these two games. First IGN recommended Resistance 2 above Gears 2 and now rather unexpectedly for me Gametrailers (usually heavily 360 biased) awards Resistance 2 as best FPS of 2008. The graphics assets may not be as polished as Metal Gear Solid 4, Uncharted: Drake's Fortune and even Gears of War 2. But the game's graphics makes up for this in terms of scale and on screen activity, from most perspectives it's well a better game than Resistance 1 was. Online is far more extensive and better. IMO best FPS on the PS3, until the arrival of Killzone 2.

Re-stating again and again your unbridled love for R2 doesn't counter the fact Sony has lost so many exclusives, and doesn't get nearly as many games as the PC or 360.

Bioshock still > R2. I'll wait for whenever Killzone launches, and playing it, before claiming it's the best thing since sliced bread.

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@Hammer

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Erm, 30 FPS in UT3.

Epic's engine (powers Bioshock and 360 exclusive Gears of War series) state of development has been on an acceptable level of development for the PS3 since UT3. 30 FPS is IMO acceptable, if output is solid. You read about a lot of people who fix their PC games to 30 FPS to suffer less from framerate fluctuations.

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Did you forget Xenos's secondary GPU?

You mean the Xenos daughter chip, the EDRAM approach is mainly there to cut costs, so they could implement the cheaper shared memory on one bus for GPU and CPU.

It's one of the main bottlenecks because there isn't enough EDRAM, which results into tiling in higher resolutions (there is no workaround, on the 360 you have to use the limited EDRAM).

The main advantage of the EDRAM is easily adding AA. You can do a complex game in 720p with AA at 30 FPS (due to tiling), but adding HDR is not an option in addition. There are plenty of 360 games which do not have AA (despite it was hyped as being "free"), this is due to other priorities, like achieving higher framerates or HDR at 720p.

There's nothing horribly wrong with the RSX, it serves it purpose well as can be seen in current and shown PS3 exclusive games.

The Cell and RSX are a great match, they aren't only used together in the PS3 but are used together for other solutions as well.

@MikeB

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Regarding reliability, here in the Netherlands over 250,000 PS3s have been sold (Benelux total is 500,000). Of the Dutch units 68 were repaired out of 1 year manufacturer's warranty. These may mostly have been people who lost their receipts or their retailers went out of business or something like that, as for Europe 2 years warranty is standard at the retailer's end. Here in the Netherlands it's even a minimal of 3 years warranty for the PS3. 70% of the failures were Blu-Ray laser issues, the other 30% are mostly overheating related (like Folding 24/7 or dust blocking the vents, etc). The PS3 performs really reliable, but is not unbreakable.

Of course, it's a consumer device, no one ever claimed it's unbreakable. My point simply being, the PS3 is more reliable than 360s, and I've yet to have any issue of note with any of the 3 consoles I've now owned, nor has there been a large number of reported problems with the PS3. Hopefully, that continues.

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Quote: few exclusives Quote: Sony has the most exclusives lined up and far more exclusives amongst its top 25 sold games than Microsoft has.

That's a loaded answer. The PS3 has far fewer titles out there competing for 'top 25.' While I wouldn't say that the top 25 PS3 titles are crap, it would be more useful to compare against the 360s top 50, or as a flat number of exclusive titles that have sold more than X copies.

Quote:

Quote: games showing up much later than PC or XBox, if at all Quote: So far all best sold 360 third party games (top 25) have seen ports or sequels on the PS3 as well.

Are Halo and GoW now then not in the top25? Please supply this list, or better yet, top 50 or top 100 on the 360.

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The best performing games are on the PS3, both lag free online and impressiveness of single player.

Wishing doesn't make this true, Mike. Are you really claiming the PS3 outperforms a gaming PC, or a PC with a reasonable video card, then? GTA4 was at lower resolution than 360. Crysis, others...come on. There have been very few, if any, games on PC, 360, and PS3 that any reviewers have stated looks better on the PS3, and many that look worse, or have some glitches.

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Quote: overpriced accessories and Video On Demand, effectively making them a no-op/not for me. Quote: Yes, but the 360.... My cheap DS even comes with Wi-Fi. 59 Euro for Wi-Fi on the 360? 80 Euros for a 120 GB 360 harddrive? You can easily get a 320 GB harddrive for the PS3 for that price. No free online play on the 360, you need a subscription. On the PS3 you can easily use cheap keyboards and mice. The 360 HD DVD drive was overpriced, considering bad load times and a format which was almost certain to fail.

Ok, so...Video on Demand for sony = loss, or low percentage of adoption, with current pricing. Another sign Sony 'doesn't get it.'

RE: Hard drives. Sure, a decent 320GB laptop drive is ~$100 USD..just bought one, don't recall exact price, but that's in the ballpark, anyways.

360 controllers are < $30.
PS3 controllers, even discounted, are ~$45. Add in $30-$100 for a cable if you actually want HD on your PS3. While I'd *prefer* online to be free, paying $40/year for XBox Live isn't that farfetched, as you're effectively still spending the same, or more, for the PS3 and accessories.

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I heard an emulator is in the works.

That was the case for the 80GB models at some point. It's still a negative for many PS3 owners out there, today.

This also leaves the following as remaining negatives for the PS3:
- lack of RAM, making it much less interesting or useful to install Linux on
- slowest HD I've seen supposedly doing DMA (not benchmarked yet, it may be GameOS causing this)
- many ports are worse on PS3
- 'The Sony way' of forcing things on consumers, instead of listening - failure to launch with rumble/dual shock, intentionally making other PS2 peripherals not work (several $$$ steering wheels, others)

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@MikeB

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Rome wasn't build in a day, many modern game engines were in development for well over a decade and they are still working on this as well. The PS3 architecture is very advanced and takes a lot of development to take optimal advantage of.

The question remains as to whether or not the PS3 will be 'mastered' well enough to make an actual, consistent difference....before the 720 comes out.

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@Hammer

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Since you claimed your not a PS3 fanboy, I wonder who is PS3 fanboy?

I prefer PS3 tech enthusiast, I reserve the term fanboy for people who get overly upset about unimportant things (I am the opposite, I see no reason why technicals cannot be discussed in a calm and polite manner). IMO I am certainly no Sony fanboy or a Playstation fanboy, the PS3 is my first Playstation. I like Sony and their 1st and 2nd party games though.

I love discussing tech, reading back I have been right on many occasions and that gives me a bit of a kick. In a couple of years I may collect a FAQ, regarding past statements / claims and will then compare this with the by then accepted reality of the time. It's a bit of a psychological experiment as well.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @wegster Quote: And of course, the NetFlix players..last I checked, the HD one wasn't yet released, Roku Netflix gets HD upgrade "The upgrade brings the Roku box up to speed with the Xbox 360, TiVo HD DVRs, and Samsung BD-P2500 and BD-P2550 Blu-ray players, all of which have been upgraded to support Netflix HD streams over the past few weeks. (The remaining device, the LG BD300 Blu-ray player, should be getting its own HD firmware upgrade soon" I agree a pay for title option ($7 Sony) compared to others (Netflix).

Thanks, just released Dec 22nd.

Now, of course - I believe this is free on the 360, with a valid NetFlix account.

So, using the PS3 as a 'media center' will of course, cost *extra* if you don't want to be raped on per movie costs from Sony. I'm sure this can be used to offset the 'preaching' over paying $40/year for XBox Live, no?

Sony - it's time to get your head out of you know where. Samsung and others now also have netflix capable BD players, it's time. Make it so for the PS3, lower your per video pricing, offer some time limited exclusives via PS3 On Demand, then let people be happy using NetFlix from their PS3, something they'll be doing with or without you, by an additional box, or from their *gasp* XBox 360.

I'm debating. I'm tempted to simply go buy one, but wondering if there's any chance Sony will wake up and enable for the PS3. Given their track record (example - how long before dual shock was brought back?), I think it's sadly, a safe purchase (additional PS3 'accessory' not needed on XBox, looks like pricing just shifted even more, no ?)

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@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @jtsiren Quote: lesser memory, loading times etc. are actually still contributing to delayed launches The PS3 has a big memory advantage technically. It's uses Blu-Ray discs, better bandwidth and has a default harddrive, in other words a streaming monster. You should try awesome games like Motorstorm: Pacific Rift, Uncharted: Drake's Fortune and the upcoming Killzone 2 and Heavy Rain. They don't require a harddrive install and rely a lot on advanced streaming. Remember the PS3 can read Blu-Ray discs faster on average than a 360 can read dual layer 6.8 GB 360 DVDs. In addition every PS3 comes with a default harddrive to help with streaming.

Mike - to date, very few cross platform games load *faster* on the PS3. This includes installed to HD games, so while theoretically what you mention above may be the case, reality isn't bearing that out, to date.

Loading from either PS3 HD or BD has been less than impressive to date, GTA included. I don't know if it's a hardware issue, GameOS, or what, but..not impressive.

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@MikeB

Quote:

The PS3 specs were known well before the PS3 and 360 launched, the 360 specs announcement were far more a last minute thing compared to the PS3. I have found no major outcry amongst people on this whatsoever.

Why would there be outcry for the 360? It was specced higher than expected, and with superior graphics hardware to the PS3, which had 'stripped' many things from it's original specs.

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@wegster

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Why would there be outcry for the 360? It was specced higher than expected, and with superior graphics hardware to the PS3

No, on all accounts (due to Microsoft PR).

Microsoft apparently send out emails to websites like IGN, many 360 fans believed their misinformation.

Here a response from a games developer with a master degree, regarding this email:

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I still can hardly imagine this email came straight from Microsoft, it's so incredibly misinformative it's mind boggling... "Bottom line: SPUs are like most CPUs" "Rule 1: The SPU is not a co-processor!" "The ultimate goal: Get everything on the SPUs." "Complex systems can go on the SPUs- Not just streaming systems - Used for any kind of task" http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/a...ming_gdc08.ppt Quote: Quote: If it wasn't obvious from my post, I agree with MikeB on pretty much all counts. That "email" is downright outrageous.. to the point of being laughable. I am shocked that another engineer might not think so. I will dissect it, if you guys *really* believe it it has some truth to it, but I really feel as though I shouldn't have to -- step back and think about the letter's approach a bit, and see if the picture becomes clearer. Its a great example of exactly how this kind of misinformation causes those who know "just enough" to get really confused, and then to propagate their confused concepts with the same confusing propaganda. MikeB does know what he's talking about.

@MikeB
30fps might be acceptable with quite a few games, but not with a fast paced FPS game like UT.

@MikeB

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Epic's engine (powers Bioshock and 360 exclusive Gears of War series) state of development has been on an acceptable level of development for the PS3 since UT3. 30 FPS is IMO acceptable, if output is solid. You read about a lot of people who fix their PC games to 30 FPS to suffer less from framerate fluctuations.

I don't recall global settings for 30 FPS cap e.g i.e. not for PC editions for UT3 (UE3), Gears Of War (UE3), Mass Effect(UE3), BlackSite(UE3), Turning Point Fall of Liberty(UE3), FarCry 2, Crysis, Crysis Warhead, GRID, Assassins Creed, Fall Out 3, NVIDIA Vista driver and 'etc'. Running Fraps shows the rendered FPS.

In PC world, refer to VSync and it's usually locks to 60Hz (typical laptop LCD, 60 FPS) or monitor's refresh rates.

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You mean the Xenos daughter chip, the EDRAM approach is mainly there to cut costs, so they could implement the cheaper shared memory on one bus for GPU and CPU.

It's more than "EDRAM", Xenos's daughter chip includes fix function pixel shaders i.e. it reduces the load on the primary unified shaders.

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It's one of the main bottlenecks because there isn't enough EDRAM, which results into tiling in higher resolutions (there is no workaround, on the 360 you have to use the limited EDRAM).

I'm aware of Xenos's design issues i.e. refer to ATI Xenos (1st generation ATI unified ahader arch) vs ATI Radeon HD 26x0/36x0 (part of 2nd generation ATI unified shader arch).

ATI Radeon HD 26x0/36x0 increased the stream/shader processors to 120 in the main GPU core. Comparing the latest GPUs against the older GPUs shows design issues in earlier design.

At this time GPU ("many-core") market is basically a two horse race i.e. ATI and NVidia.

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There's nothing horribly wrong with the RSX, it serves it purpose well as can be seen in current and shown PS3 exclusive games.

I didn't state RSX was horribly wrong, but only for theoretical GFLOPs numbers.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Dec-2008 at 11:34 PM.

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@MikeB

(SINP)
Quote:

I still can hardly imagine this email came straight from Microsoft, it's so incredibly misinformative it's mind boggling... "Bottom line: SPUs are like most CPUs" "Rule 1: The SPU is not a co-processor!" "The ultimate goal: Get everything on the SPUs." "Complex systems can go on the SPUs- Not just streaming systems - Used for any kind of task" http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/a...ming_gdc08.ppt (SNIP)

SPEs are not CPUs either i.e. note "like most". SPEs are available for PCs as "decoupled" co-processors or as accelerators.

Last edited by Hammer on 29-Dec-2008 at 12:12 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 28-Dec-2008 at 11:51 PM.

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@MikeB
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Microsoft paid for this to be timed exclusive. Complain to Microsoft all you want, I doubt they will listen

Wouldn't the complaint be to Sony for failing to garner the exclusive for their console?

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Sony has the most exclusives lined up and far more exclusives amongst its top 25 sold games than Microsoft has

Your statement here is a bit unclear I assume you mean top 25 games of the year but perhaps you mean some other period of time? And having an exclusive in the top 25 is that really as telling as the exclusives on the the console throughout all titles. The 360 has more games than the PS3. The 360 has significantly more games if you count the backwards compatibility of the 360 and the lack thereof on the PS3. I'm doubtful the PS3 has the most exclusives.

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So far all best sold 360 third party games (top 25) have seen ports or sequels on the PS3 as well

And that's nice and all but I guess the statement here is that if you are a user that is mainly attracted to 3rd party games wouldn't you perfer the 360 because it plays them too, just as well and in some cases better, and costs less than the PS3? Yeah you would.

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I promise you Killzone 2 and Uncharted 2 will shatter any remaining doubt regarding 360 vs PS3 technical differences.

2 games after 2 years show that the PS3 can be used to play beyond? I'm sure the stores will be flooded by .5% of PS3 titles being clearly superior. (Yes that was sarcasm)

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The PS3 specs were known well before the PS3 and 360 launched

Really? May 05 Sony showed a dual HDMI, 3 Gig ethernet, and 6USB port machine. Nov 2005 the 360 launched. E3 2006, after the 360 launch, the HDMI was cut to 1, Ethernet to 1 and USB was cut to 4 ports along with the surprise of another console (likely influenced IMO by the 360 Arcade option). Sorry, but the timeline here disagrees with your assertion.

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In addition every PS3 comes with a default harddrive to help with streaming.

Did you see this complaint on the 360 is now old hat? The vast majority of 360 owners have a harddrive. That is all Premium, all Pro, and according to Microsoft 80% of Arcade owners own a harddrive. With the Nov 08 patch you can now load your game to the harddrive just as PS3 owners enjoy. If you wanna see some in action goto YouTube.


@Jsitern
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But I still fail to see, as I did then, PS3 having the clear difference in audio visual performance compared to Xbox 360.

I think some of this harkens back to the performance of the PS3. The performance numbers are such that the PS3 has more theoretical performance than the PS3. Early on I made a point that the theoretical performance means squat. What is important is how easy it is for developers to get to and use that performance. And you are right at this point in the market there is no clear difference. There are a few games better on each platform, the PS3 is NOT walking away with the win. Gamers care about performance but actual not preceived, eg theoretical. Certainly Rome wasn't built in a day. However, if the PS3 developers don't get Rome done soon the next gen will be shipping and Sony won't be #1 and at this rate not #2 either.


@Hammer
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Depends if Microsoft can obtain the same licence IP core conditions as ATI’s IP core.

My understanding was that the licensing for the 360 is all owned by Microsoft. Or at least friendlier to Microsoft's goals than the Xbox licensing with Nvidia was. From what I recall the Xbox3 will not have to pay the big licensing penality to ATI for the 360 that Nvidia saw from the Xbox.


@Minatar
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The 45nm Cell seems to be around 35W, they wont get to the 20W until 32nm. The original 8 SPE, 90nm Cell was 110W

Thanks for the specs. Here is the ArsTechnia Link I think the last point of the article was interesting. Summary -- Where is the ubiquitous Cell computing Sony talked about? Short answer: Cell=PS3


@Wegster
You are welcome. I believe using Netflix on the 360 requires a Gold membership. But, yes HD Netflix is on the 360. 1 move every 2 months with Sony PS3 and you've paid for your Gold Xbox Membership. The more movies you watch the more economical the 360+Netflix HD is over the PS3 model.

@wegster

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So, using the PS3 as a 'media center' will of course, cost *extra* if you don't want to be raped on per movie costs from Sony. I'm sure this can be used to offset the 'preaching' over paying $40/year for XBox Live, no?

It's interesting I often hear claims the PS3 movie playback capabilities provide no real value for most games, because the 360 has some of the worst quality DVD playback available and the PS3 is amongst the best quality DVD as well as Blu-Ray movie playback devices available.

IMO online multi-player should be free for a console like the 360 (best sellers are heavily online focussed games like COD4, Halo 3 and Gears of War). IMO no optional online movie service changes this.

I find it funny, I often hear about so many double standards.

@Tomas

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30fps might be acceptable with quite a few games, but not with a fast paced FPS game like UT.

Many reviewers thought it is acceptable for this game. Some even preferred the PS3 version over the PC original.

@MikeB

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I love discussing tech, reading back I have been right on many occasions and that gives me a bit of a kick.

Most of us get such a kick, I'm sure.

How about all the times you have been wrong, though?

When the Xbox 360 started blowing up on people's faces, I said so, and called Microsoft on it.

When the Xbox 360 started selling poorly, I congratulated Sony for moves well made and pointed out Microsoft's failings.

However, PS3 is not selling nowhere near your past predictions as of today, and you still continue to dance around that (or any other) issues with vague comments. Console comparisons such as at GameSpot aren't seeing the technical superiority in PS3 games, in fact, at times Xbox 360 is the superior one (and at times PS3 too of course, but the consoles continue trading even punches in the eyes of many spectators).

Trust me, if and when I (and the writing press/gamer community) starts seeing a distinct quality difference in PS3 vs. Xbox 360, I'll let you guys know I see it too. *I DO EXPECT IT TO HAPPEN*, but I wonder how big of a deal it will be and how late in the game.

I do think BrianK or wegster, who actually all have a vested interest in seeing PS3 do fine (to justify our own investments on it), would do the same. I'm sure there is also more love for the Xbox 360 than in your case, but I don't think that would keep a sane person from enjoying their expensive PS3 more if they actually did enjoy it more...

We just don't see what you are seeing/writing. To return to an old comment of mine: It would be fresh if you at times stopped and really said, OK, that didn't go right. But that is just not your way of expressing yourself, fine.

I still think my original assertion from two years back, that PS3 isn't really kicking Xbox 360's butt performance wise, remains valid today no matter what your suggestions back then. The writing was on the wall - and it remains there to this date.

PS3 has most theoretical muscle underneath all that "advanced" (read: different) architecture, but crippled with slow loading times, lack of memory, poorer GPU etc. and longer development times, there are many tradeoffs taking away from that theory.

It might change in another year or two, probably eventually will at least to some extent, but then the next gen is awfully close and who knows how long and to what degree PS3 can enjoy clearly visible technical superiority in games.

I think any fair person could agree to some extent with these: If Xbox 360 disappointed with reliability, I must say PS3 disappointed with performance, delays and amount of content. And Wii blew both of them out of the water - I have no trouble saying this, even though I'm not necessarily a fan of Wii nor am I about to buy one anytime soon. That's just how I view the world and others too. Congrats to Nintendo, I doubt others will catch ya.

@MikeB

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because the 360 has some of the worst quality DVD playback available and the PS3 is amongst the best quality DVD as well

PS3 tech enthusiast, if you really want to not be seen in the light of fanboydom please take time to learn why you are wrong when others here are nice enough to make the effort to explain to you how and provide the cooresponding evidence. Please go back to the other thread and/or take the time at Google to find the evidence for this. Short version. 360 has received updates to playback quality of DVDs. 360 is a very strong DVD player if the content is flagged properly. This isn't a problem because the vast majority of movie studioes properly flag their DVD content. Is the 360 as good as my PS3 for DVD playback? I'd say if the PS3 is a 10 the 360 is a strong a 8 if not 9 and my Marantz DVD player a 12. Your statement of worst quality is wrong. Please update your stale info and some may consider you a bit more of an enthusiast.

Thank you

@BrianK

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Thanks for the specs. Here is the ArsTechnia Link I think the last point of the article was interesting.

I think that article got quite a bit of criticism at the time. He completely ignored the PowerXCell 8i.

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Summary -- Where is the ubiquitous Cell computing Sony talked about? Short answer: Cell=PS3

Erm:

IBM blades, Mercury blades, Mercury Cell PCIe card, Toshiba Spurs engine and PCIe cards, the Qosmio laptop (includes the spurs engine), Toshiba's forthcoming TVs,

Sony's new blade

and of course this beastie.

PC news outlet tend to report on PC news so you hear very little of anything else. At best you hear the odd story of some researcher building a PS3 cluster. You get very little of what's happening with Cell. You'll probably find it's building up in the background quite nicely in the high end embedded space.

The G4 once did well in that area but no one talked about that either.

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@jtsiren

Quote:

Most of us get such a kick, I'm sure. How about all the times you have been wrong, though?

Some things took longer than anticipated, but in such cases I always make it clear it's personal anticipation. More important I find being right or wrong on technicals and this track record is pretty solid so far.

Like I said earlier in this thread I didn't expect the 360 to sell for as low as 119 Euro (including 19% taxes) next door, but I also stated in the past I wouldn't mind for Microsoft hand out consoles for free.

I was one of the few people who stated here on AmigaWorld that I anticipated the Nintendo Wii to be a success, although the amount of Nintendo's success has even caught me off guard. I also anticipated the PS3 to drop by 50 dollars by October, exchange rates and global economics seems to have prevented this.

Quote:

However, PS3 is not selling nowhere near your past predictions as of today, and you still continue to dance around that (or any other) issues with vague comments.

I already stated that earlier in this thread. But the PS3 sells well enough still considering entry pricing and some still pending anticipated games yet to be released.

Last edited by MikeB on 29-Dec-2008 at 04:40 PM.

@BrianK

Sorry Brian the 360 is a horrible DVD player for today's standards, one of the worst, even the PS2 is better in many cases. You browse videophile forums yourself.

The HD DVD player's DVD playback is more acceptable, but is still well worse than the PS3 and most better upscaling DVD players.