@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Wii Fit seems to have been a hype amongst especially women, but I don't think this market segment is per se the market segment that buys many games in addition compared to a 'hardcore gamer', lacking for a better term to describe the obvious difference I am referring to. What you often read about was impulsive hyped buys of a Wii and then the enthusiasm wears off quickly. Not saying that's not great for Nintendo business. Actually in the past as a teen owning Nintendo consoles I also only bought Nintendo games for those consoles, with Super Mario World and Mario 64 actually having been the only reasons to buy those consoles in the first place. In hindsight I was a much better c64 and Amiga customer.

Mike, all leading systems are as such because they catered to casuals.
Guitar Hero was on the PS2 first and that lead to alot of PS2 sales to casuals. There are more examples.

And nothing for nothing but, generally speaking: Nintendo games are simply better than 3rd party equivalents. Why wouldn't you buy them? Find me a better 'platformer' series than Mario. Find me a better 'kart-racing' series than Mario kart. The list goes on. Nintendo also creates new genres that didn't exist before, so again you see all the sales in that genre going to Nintendo.

Nintendo hasn't always had the most powerful hardware on the market, but their software speaks for itself.

@Lou

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Nintendo hasn't always had the most powerful hardware on the market, but their software speaks for itself.

I agree, Nintendo's games designers are amongst the best of the best.

But I feel I have moved far past Nintendo style games, I still like Mario platformers but consider it more like a snack for on the road, but having a game with deep story, realism and/or real challenge on the PS3 feels more like a home dinner to me, satisfying me much more at this point of my life. We could use more snacks on the PS3 of the quality that Nintendo provides to appeal to more people, but I feel in the dinner department Nintendo consoles severely lack and I don't see this changing in the future.

With the above I just try to explain my personal feelings.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Nintendo hasn't always had the most powerful hardware on the market, but their software speaks for itself. I agree, Nintendo's games designers are amongst the best of the best. But I feel I have moved far past Nintendo style games, I still like Mario platformers but consider it more like a snack for on the road, but having a game with deep story, realism and/or real challenge on the PS3 feels more like a home dinner to me, satisfying me much more at this point of my life. We could use more snacks on the PS3 of the quality that Nintendo provides to appeal to more people, but I feel in the dinner department Nintendo consoles severely lack and I don't see this changing in the future. With the above I just try to explain my personal feelings.

Mike,
Let me explain the plot of most Mario platformers: Bowser kidnaps Princess Peach and Mario must save her.

With Nintendo games, the plot/story is not important. The adventure is. Nintendo invents new things to do to achieve the same goal. That's what keeps people coming back.

Ofcourse, with realistic FPS games, the story may change, but in the end you just shoot stuff the same way for a long time.

This is a fundamental difference between Nintedo's developers and everyone else. Nintendo breaks new ground in gameplay, everyone else follows, copies, adds HD and realism...big freakin deal.

I am not a casual gamer, but I do admire what they do.

To this day I've only enjoyed a few FPS games. Deus Ex (original), Metroid Prime series and Red Steel(because it was the first FPS with Wii controls...plus sword fighting). All offer more than your standard: point gun at bad guys and shoot.

So you can have your $60 realistic games with a mature story that lasts 6 hours and I'll enjoy my games that are fun and make you think for 20+ hours. Online multiplayer is just more of the same thing only they dropped the story completely. Yawn.

Mind you, it's not just PS3 games that last 6ish hours but both 'hd' consoles have failed in this regard. When I picked up the 360 that I own, I got CoD2&3 with it. I popped them in and played for a few minutes and then went back to World of Warcraft. Boring.

Honestly, I would have finished Metroid Prime 3, but there is one boss about 1/3 into the game that is too damned hard! This saddens me bacause that is one game that has it all.

@Lou

Maybe you've tried the wrong games. Halo and the Call of Duty series are IMO bad examples. They are not bad, but IMO feel more geared towards teens (I think these games are relatively more popular in the states and probably the united kingdom). Nintendo is very valuable for a healthy gaming market, they like no other aim their games at kids.

Sony's track record is also competent, but not that much this generation so far as the PS3 was too expensive for kids to buy (and usually don't own the setup to take full advantage of the system). I think they too will soon widen the market in this regard, but IMO Nintendo is the king in this regard.

IMO both approaches are important, but I think the market could do without Microsoft's involvement to be honest. Mostly they just buy someone else's project or buy exclusivity to a multi-platform intended game. IMO Rare should still be making Nintendo games, Bungie should have stayed multi-platform with Halo probably with a focuss on PCs and Macs and Epic should have continued to concentrate on what they do best, get the most out of their gaming engine on every supported platform.

@MikeB

Well, I played a couple of the old Medal of Honor games last gen, Ghost Recon on the Xbox was interesting because it wasn't mindless.

I played Resistence:FoM on your PS3, that was pretty mindless.
Yes, even Conduit for the Wii was mindless, but very pretty for a Wii game and that was it's point. :)

You should really join Steam or one of the other services and try out the original Deus Ex. Now that game was something.

Last edited by Lou on 05-Jun-2010 at 01:55 AM.

@Lou

Resistance: Fall of Man had a story and it was told very well, you collect intels to get information on the story background, etc. I think it was the best of all the 360/PS3 launch games. In this regard I thought it was far superior to Gears of War which had an extremely simple lacking story and the main characters were showing mindless behaviour as well.

But I think now PS3 story telling and presentation is on a level never seen before in computer gaming.

Nowadays professional film script writers are writing the stories, professional actors with strong personality are used to make it all feel far more believable and immersive, the animations, facial details, emotions, etc are all very well done. It all helps to bring emotions into gaming, like anger, sadness, disgust, fear, happiness, etc. I think Sony involvement in first and second party PS3 exclusives has helped to bring this to new levels.

The results in PS3 exclusives in IMO readily appartent, some examples:

Heavenly Sword:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=942MFIkDC9o

Heavy Rain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9K_T_klwRQ

Killzone 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGy6SEEXcJA

God of War 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MBJv5D5OUw

Uncharted 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAaJCKa5QDo

The best non PS3 exclusive effort I have seen this gen so far is probably Bioshock, but I think does not come close to many of the example linked to above.

A new Natal gameplay video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm0KKa6wACQ

BrianK how about you upload some video of you once you get Natal to demonstrate what makes Natal so cool?

@MikeB

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BrianK how about you upload some video of you once you get Natal to demonstrate what makes Natal so cool?

Certainly there will be videos of all different games for Natal. The potential I see for Natal is Minority Report style of interactions with the OS and applications. Something neither Wii nor Wand could do as they're being held in your hand and you're still pushing buttons.


You come across as a Halo hater. There is 1 thing that's undeniable. Halo is THE game that moved the FPS genre to the consoles. Certainly other FPS were tried before Halo. They were unsuccessful and people wanted their mouse and keyboard back. Halo developers skillfully translated the FPS movement to a controller. Without the success fo Halo the chance that other FPS had been brought to market, Fall of Man or Left for Dead for example, would have been much lower.

Halo 3, for example, was the best selling game of 2007 and in 18 months over 1Billion online matches were played. Clearly a game that's enjoyed by many. No one's forcing you to like it. Just recognize there's something people find very enjoyable about the series. I expect good things for Halo:Reach as it's the first fully 360 specific engine for Halo. It'll be interesting to see where 343 Industries take the game after Reach. 343 Industries is owned by Microsoft, as is Halo, and staffs several of Bungie's ex-Halo employees.

@BrianK

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Certainly there will be videos of all different games for Natal. The potential I see for Natal is Minority Report style of interactions with the OS and applications. Something neither Wii nor Wand could do as they're being held in your hand and you're still pushing buttons.

What has been shown has already been done by Japanese consumer electronics companies with an ordinary camera (lacking an infrared sensor) well before Microsoft announced Natal.

We have seen nothing of Minority Report style navigation with Natal.

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There is 1 thing that's undeniable. Halo is THE game that moved the FPS genre to the consoles. Certainly other FPS were tried before Halo. They were unsuccessful and people wanted their mouse and keyboard back.

I remember playing Alien Breed 3D quite comfortably with a joystick on the Amiga despite you couldn't strafe, haven't tried the CD32 gamepad though.

Doom for the playstation was well received and achieved platinum status!

IGN: "The PlayStation controller was made for Doom; it has never been easier to run, strafe and blow demons up at the same time."

So much for being "undeniable".

Last edited by MikeB on 05-Jun-2010 at 03:16 PM.

@MikeB

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I remember playing Alien Breed 3D quite comfortably with a joystick on the Amiga despite you couldn't strafe, haven't tried the CD32 gamepad though.

You haven't lived! The CD32 pad is very good for these Doom clones. The CD32 controls for ADoom are very good too, but you do need the keyboard for weapon selection whereas Alienbreed 3D has a weapon cycle button on the CD32 pad

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Resistance: Fall of Man had a story and it was told very well, you collect intels to get information on the story background, etc. I think it was the best of all the 360/PS3 launch games. In this regard I thought it was far superior to Gears of War which had an extremely simple lacking story and the main characters were showing mindless behaviour as well. But I think now PS3 story telling and presentation is on a level never seen before in computer gaming. Nowadays professional film script writers are writing the stories, professional actors with strong personality are used to make it all feel far more believable and immersive, the animations, facial details, emotions, etc are all very well done. It all helps to bring emotions into gaming, like anger, sadness, disgust, fear, happiness, etc. I think Sony involvement in first and second party PS3 exclusives has helped to bring this to new levels.

Ah but FMV does not quality gameplay make.
The action was mindless. I'd walk down a hall get ambushed and die.
I'd respawn, lob a grenade high into the sky so it lands on the spawn point...then I'd walk forward, the baddies spawn, the grenade lands and explodes, and I'd walk forward to the next area without firing one bullet. That's what 'next-gen' AI is supposed to be? Because so much developement time goes into graphics to meet the 'HD' standard, let time is put into actually making the gameplay 'next-gen'.

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The results in PS3 exclusives in IMO readily appartent, some examples: Heavenly Sword: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=942MFIkDC9o Heavy Rain: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9K_T_klwRQ Killzone 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGy6SEEXcJA God of War 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MBJv5D5OUw

We'll see how much GoW3 sells but none of those games sold in sustantial numbers except maybe KZ2

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Uncharted 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAaJCKa5QDo

They should have just sold it as a film. We dicussed my thoughts on the game.

As for Bioshock, recall that it is a spiritual successor to System Shock which was made by some of the same people that made Deus Ex.

@Lou

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Ah but FMV does not quality gameplay make.

I know you have issues with MGS4 because of the many realtime cutscenes, despite you never played the game. This game and the other PS3 games did not get good reviews just because of the graphics, they sport good gameplay as well.

I know you want to believe otherwise but Uncharted 2 did receive so many 'Game of the year' awards because of the amazing gameplay, would it be a better game if the story sucked, graphics were #### and audio blows?

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We'll see how much GoW3 sells but none of those games sold in sustantial numbers except maybe KZ2

All those mentioned games sold well over a million copies Lou. GoW3 is also aleady a multi-milion seller.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Ah but FMV does not quality gameplay make. I know you have issues with MGS4 because of the many realtime cutscenes, despite you never played the game. This game and the other PS3 games did not get good reviews just because of the graphics, they sport good gameplay as well.

Actually, I know MSG4 is great but you didn't mention it until now.

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I know you want to believe otherwise but Uncharted 2 did receive so many 'Game of the year' awards because of the amazing gameplay, would it be a better game if the story sucked, graphics were #### and audio blows?

Mike, we know it got awards because the graphics overpowered the flaws.

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Quote: We'll see how much GoW3 sells but none of those games sold in sustantial numbers except maybe KZ2 All those mentioned games sold well over a million copies Lou. GoW3 is also aleady a multi-milion seller.

Yes, but the top PS3 game sells what, perhaps 4 million? When you compare production costs of those games - it sorta needs to. The PS2 had 4 titles, iirc, selling 10+M. When will the PS3 have such hits?

Exclusives are being lost because when you spend $30M on a game, it needs to sell atleast 3 million to be considered worth it by a publisher. That's not a good place for 3rd party publishers to be with the PS3 platform. It seems on the Wii, 500,000 is enough to justify a sequel...

Moster Hunter 3 was moved to the Wii because of production costs. This series was never popular outside Japan, but this one has done well thanks to the size of the Wii audience outside of Japan.

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Sold 915,000 copies total by October 4th, 2009. [9] Ranked 3rd in Amazon Japan's top sellers of 2009. [10] Ranked 8th in Famitsu's Top 2009 Sales at 968,033 copies sold.

It seems to cause alot of Playstation owners to pick up a Wii:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=24754

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In its first week being out, it has already racked up an impressive 110 897 units in Americas, and 73 099 units in Others. It is important to know that this number for others was only tracked for, apparently, one day. While certainly not impressive as Japan's first week sales, which were well over 500 000 units, it is important to note that neither franchise is huge in the west. For comparison sake, the game has by far the best opening weeks of the entire series in both Americas and Others.

So YES - 3rd party "quality" games can sell on the Wii and YES - hard core games can sell on the Wii.

Last edited by Lou on 05-Jun-2010 at 08:07 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 05-Jun-2010 at 08:06 PM.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @MikeB Halo is THE game that moved the FPS genre to the consoles. ... They were unsuccessful and people wanted their mouse and keyboard back. Halo developers skillfully translated the FPS movement to a controller.

Golden Eye & Nintendo say "hello".

Interestingly enough:
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/06/05/report-new-goldeneye-coming-in-november-to-be-revealed-at-e3/

Last edited by Lou on 05-Jun-2010 at 08:38 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 05-Jun-2010 at 08:37 PM.

@MikeB

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We have seen nothing of Minority Report style navigation with Natal.

That's why I say potential. More exacting 3D positioning and voice translation. I can see something, such as Netflix interface, that would be completely controlable via pointing or waving your arm in the directions of browsing. Microsoft has a group devoted to Natural User Interfaces. Natal is out of that group. I can see this concept extended further.


As for Halo being the 'Halo' (pun intended) game that set FPS to the consoles I think the Goldeneye 007 definitely deserves some of this too.

Alien Breed 3D -- not on major console AFAIK. While on the Amiga. I, still consider the Amiga a PC not a console. And yes no strafing so the controls of a FPS lacked. Something the dual stick control of Halo provided to the FPS on consoles. Doom was a very important FPS game in it's own right as many see this game as establishing the genre, in total. Though the PS2 controllers weren't a good for FPS.

Something else -- Halo, while mostly still linear, has a feeling of openness that surpasses the Killzone series. I'd compare Killzone to Gears due to both being very linear.

@BrianK

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Though the PS2 controllers weren't a good for FPS.

As you can read above, in your opinion.

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I'd compare Killzone to Gears due to both being very linear.

Gears is well more linear though. In Killzone 2, in the bigger area maps you can easily loose your way. Of course the story is told in a linear manner, I think there's nothing wrong with that. First you need to finish certain objectives before moving onto the next objective, IMO makes sense.

Killzone 3 is said to have levels 10x the size as Killzone 2 did. You can also use a jetpack to move around, I hope it doesn't get too much open world, to be honest I like the story being linear (open world is fine for some games, but I feel not the best approach for all types of games).

Last edited by MikeB on 06-Jun-2010 at 07:33 AM.

I mean you are (luckily) assisted in finding your next objective, but in the large areas of Killzone 2 it can be quite difficult to find the emblems and intels (as you aren't assisted with that). I remember an area where I took a lot of time to find them moving between a large open area connecting 5 different buildings.

So Gears of War IMO is far more linear.

@BrianK

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Alien Breed 3D -- not on major console AFAIK. While on the Amiga. I, still consider the Amiga a PC not a console. And yes no strafing so the controls of a FPS lacked. Something the dual stick control of Halo provided to the FPS on consoles.

AlienBreed 3D had strafing!! From memory you held down CTRL while holding left or right on the joystick. If you were using the CD32 Pad then it was the Shoulder Buttons that controlled strafing.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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BigD wrote: @BrianK Quote: Alien Breed 3D -- not on major console AFAIK. While on the Amiga. I, still consider the Amiga a PC not a console. And yes no strafing so the controls of a FPS lacked. Something the dual stick control of Halo provided to the FPS on consoles. AlienBreed 3D had strafing!! From memory you held down CTRL while holding left or right on the joystick. If you were using the CD32 Pad then it was the Shoulder Buttons that controlled strafing.

Ah but could you shoot at vertical angles other than straight ahead? Quake, to me, was the first modern PC FPS. Golden Eye let you do that as well.

@Lou

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Quake, to me, was the first modern PC FPS.

In any case Quake 2 got ported to the Playstation 1, which IMO is quite remarkable as Quake 2 is a 1997/1998 game on the PC and the PS1 hardware was released in 1994 (of course the Quake series even runs on even older Amigas, which ID software once claimed wasn't possible).

Quoting IGN:

"The analog control, which is much better, works a lot like a mouse and keyboard setup would. The analog stick controls your look, the buttons on the right your movement direction, and the shoulder buttons your weapons and jumping."

"And for those who really want to know which is better, the Nintendo 64 version, or the PlayStation version, I finally have the answer. The PlayStation version wins out in several areas. The PS Quake II is faster, with better looking arenas and better frame rates in four-player mode, and an overall feel that is just a notch better than its N64 cousin."

In any case we agree, that BrianK's "undeniable" facts are wrong.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jun-2010 at 12:38 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jun-2010 at 12:38 PM.