@Samwel

Quote:

Btw as PC's generally doesn't connect to TV's and cost way more than any console

Factor in DVI-to-HDMI converters. My Radeon HD3870 comes with two DVI ports with two DVI-to-HDMI converters and it's HDCP enabled.

Quote:

The PS3 will never go beyond 1920x1080 60Hz. So there's no need for having gfx hardware that makes it possible to calculate 200 FPS. Yes quality may get better. But (most of) these things can be fixed by the Cell.

Mostly fixing Geforce 7 series front-end issues.

Radeon X1900's pixel shaders killed SPUs twice over on non-pixel shading work e.g. Fold@Home. If the work load was pixel shader operations (i.e. operations specifically designed GpGPUs), the results would not be good for CELL.

Quote:

The Cell is afterall not used more than 50% by any game yet, maybe even less. In a year or two the PS3 games will get better and we'll see no frame drops anymore. I think not even from third party companies.

There's the practical GFLOPs vs theoretical GFLOPs e.g. refer to CELL's F@H example.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Dec-2007 at 11:07 AM.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Depends on the games machine being targeted e.g. PS3.

I don't compare PC to consoles!
Consoles have fixed hardware, with all the good and bad points that implies.


Quote:

Beyond 1280x720p or 1280x800p and DX10, a cheap ATI Radeon 3850 is recommended.

I know very well the performance of graphics cards thank you.
I'm planning to upgrade my Radeon 1950PRO to a 3870 early next year.
Although my current card performs quite good on my 1280x1024 LCD.

Whatever you say you can't convince me that you'll get a PC for the same price as a PS3
performing the same. Maybe in 3-4 years..
Oh and please don't misunderstand me, I know a high end PC outperforms a PS3 due
to the advanced graphics cards and fast multi core CPUs. But it'll cost you 3-4 times as
much.

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@Hammer

Quote:

Quote: Btw as PC's generally doesn't connect to TV's and cost way more than any console Factor in DVI-to-HDMI converters. My Radeon HD3870 comes with two DVI ports with two DVI-to-HDMI converters and it's HDCP enabled.

Maybe you didn't read my comment? I said generally.. With that I mean people do normally
not connect their PC to a TV. I never implied it isn't possible. I know it is because I have mine
connected to a TV.
And yes I'm well aware of that many newer gfx cards have DVI-HDMI adapters and support
HDCP. That's one of the reasons I'm upgrading my gfx card next year.


Quote:

There's the practical GFLOPs vs theoretical GFLOPs e.g. refer to CELL's F@H example.

I'm sorry but I'm not following you.. Are you saying that folding home is the most advanced
highly optimized (for) Cell software in the world? So we should use it as a comparison?

I'm not interested in GFLOPS MFLOPS or whatever.. All I know is that Sony can code and
most others can't (it seems). All their own games are smooth as silk, 60fps the best gfx
on the platform, no loading times or stuttering while loading. This MUST mean the third
party coders are doing something wrong.
If Uncharted is the best the PS3 can perform then so be it. It's nice enough for me.

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@Samwel

Quote:

Maybe it is for Mike? Maybe you shouldn't rain on his parade?

DivX support is nice, but it's not a big deal for me as Tomas. However I think this holds some potential for cutscenes in future PSN games, which need to be a small as possible.

I have DivX installed on my PC, but for my entertainment setup it's all Blu-Ray and legacy DVDs.

Last edited by MikeB on 19-Dec-2007 at 01:30 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

DivX support is nice, but it's not a big deal for me as Tomas. However I think this holds some potential for cutscenes in future PSN games, which need to be a small as possible.

Not really. For low bitrates, there are far better codecs, such as h264. DiVX and XViD are very very useful as they are the codecs used for most TV-ripped series etc..

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@Samwel

Quote:

The main problem I see today for 360 and PS3 is the relatively low amount of memory these consoles have. Many companies doesn't seem to know how to stream gfx data without dropping frame rate. This includes some 360 games.

That's why the Unreal Engine is of importance, it already does and third parties can take advantage of this. But maybe more interestingly the White Engine was built up from scratch for the PS3 and they plan on making it available to third parties when it's done.

@Samwel

Quote:

Whatever you say you can't convince me that you'll get a PC for the same price as a PS3 performing the same. Maybe in 3-4 years

I think the biggest hold back to this is the cost of a Blu-Ray drive. Sony takes a loss on the PS3 to get it into our homes. Even the low cost readers at low cost companies are over $200. That leaves $300 for the PC itself. Hardly enough to build a system that could compete. But, if we're just looking at gaming I believe all PC games come on DVD and there isn't any game exclusively on Blu-Ray. With that in mind and we give up the $200 Blu-Ray for a $35 DVD then likely one can build a PC that plays 2007 games comparable or better then 2007 PS3 games.

Part of the problem is the potential of the PS3. What will the future hold? If Uncharted is the limit then a comparably priced PC today will compete. Personally I hope Uncharted isn't the limit and if true today's $500 PC won't be able to compete with perhaps the 2010 games for the PS3. I'd bet the $500 2010 PC could compete with 2010 PS3 games, though.

@Tomas

Quote:

Tomas wrote: Completed stranglehold today.... It was fun while it lasted, but i found it extremely short. The game could easily be completed in less than a day, at least at the easier difficulty settings.

Lol, that's the HD era advantage!
3x the resolution, 1/2 the content (length of adventure)
$10 more in price.

@BrianK

Quote:

I'm all for us pointing out mistakes, asking for clarifications, or corrections as necessary. Part of a discussion is to learn things we don't know or perhaps may even be mistaken about. We're all human afterall. But if you really insist that being rude and turning them into personal attacks appears to be against the terms and conditions of the site.

If you think my postings are not according to the TOS, just report me. Although I would be very surprised they would do anything, as at least one mod didn't care Lou was trying to tell me "do let me know how you die, the world is waiting with bated breath".

I would say my postings don't even come close to something like that.

As far as your mistakes, you do have a tendency to point out the negative parts about Sony and it looks like you don't even bother to check your assumptions.

Quote:

The existence of the Blu-Ray/PS3 combo makes it interesting and strange to count players in use and calculate ownership rate. HD DVD is easier because the 360 version doesn't play games so they only would be used to play movies. I think what you see is a discussion around the issues surrounding the counts and reflection of market data in a complex market.

Reading your message from 7 dec 16:31:41 (Amsterdam time) it seems you are annoyed that the BR camp is adding the PS3 to the player statistics (see your quote below). I'm not going to delve through the older threads, but my feeling is you shifted from trying to exclude the PS3 from the numbers (as it was bad PR for HD-DVD) and now want to add it, as you can herald the attach rate.

Quote:

And to be fair if they use this method they too must count all the PS3s for a ratio of movies per player, eg attach rate.

But I haven't seen that the BR camp has been discussing attach rate. From what I could find so far it's only the HD-DVD camp that heavily stresses attach rate.

Bottom line, it looks like even for dedicated players HD-DVD is having a hard time to keep ahead of BR and we don't even need to discuss "software" (as in movies) sales. Attach rate in this case is just an academic discussion (to use your own words).

Quote:

Quote: [quote]If that's the case then no problem. Sony simply overfills the sales channel. That's your assumption.

Perhaps my point wasn't clear.[/quote]

Oh, your point was perfectly clear. It's just that you state Sony simply overfills the sales channel. Why wouldn't it be possible to have good PS3 sales and a "normal" filled pipeline? Do you see your negative attitude towards Sony?

Quote:

Quote: You do however point out that you wouldn't be surprised 2008 will be the year that the PS3 will catch up, but based on what? I think there's 2 items here. First is 2008 games are better then 2007 games for the PS3, again IMO, but I think MikeB would agree. The 2nd is it seems Sony appears willing to do what it takes - ie lower costs wherever possible to fix the issue that the first iteration of the console appeared to be too expensive for the market.

Ah, now you are explaining yourself. This information was not available in your previous post. Why withhold the "positive PS3 view"? Why do I have to "drag" the positive PS3 things out of you?

Last edited by jiyong on 19-Dec-2007 at 03:36 PM.

@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote: @Tomas Quote: Anyone know if Sony released any info regarding exact bitrates, resolution and such for xvid? To get official DivX certification I suppose a player has to perform to a degree. Maybe you could check divx.com or something for information?

The xbox 360 also has official certification, but it still plays those that the ps3 does not playback.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Samwel With all this Blu/HD/Xvid has anyone tried putting 2 hours of HD video on a DVD? Here's one article and how to record so one's HD DVD can play it. Nice - get High Def quality on a DVD without having to pay the expensive blank Blu-Ray or HD DVD prices. Much less expensive then today's blank Blu-Ray prices. I guess they won't play on DVD players but most HD DVD or Blu-Ray players will play the '3xDVD'.

You can always just reencode from HD material yourself and burn it to a dvd.. There is also a bunch of 720p encodes on the internet available for download. I downloaded a few series in 720p xvid and burned them onto a standard dvd and they played back just fine.

@jiyong

Quote:

jiyong wrote: @BrianK [quote] If you think my postings are not according to the TOS, just report me. Although I would be very surprised they would do anything, as at least one mod didn't care Lou was trying to tell me "do let me know how you die, the world is waiting with bated breath". I would say my postings don't even come close to something like that.

No, it's just that I don't cry and whine to moderators like some people like to...
You postings speak for themselves.
You offend easily and easily offend others.

@jiyong
Quote:

it looks like you don't even bother to check your assumptions.

As far as end of fiscal year is March you're right. I should have checked if it was the 1st or the 31st. Your extension of the concept into a blanket statement that applies to all my comments, is however wrong. But, if you'll note that was last thread and a few pages ago. There's really no need for you to point it out as the point was made, the adjustments made in the discussion and we've all moved on. Sorry you came late. I hope you're now caught up. BTW notice we were able to accomplish the correction without rudeness to each other.

Quote:

even for dedicated players HD-DVD is having a hard time to keep ahead of BR

As of right now both combined are roughly 2% of DVD sales. Blu looks to be more likely to win. But, also I think the market is large enough that it can sustain 2 formats. NTSC and PAL for example have been sustained for quite a while.

Quote:

It's just that you state Sony simply overfills the sales channel. Why wouldn't it be possible to have good PS3 sales and a "normal" filled pipeline? Do you see your negative attitude towards Sony?

Let me restate so it's more clear. This is fairly easy to do. Sony makes and ships 3M+ PS3s. It doesn't matter if the sales demand for the quantity produced is there or not. This isn't negative companies ship more products and have vendors stock them on shelves all the time expecting future sales.

Looking at the local Best Buy there's a PS3 stack about 5' tall by 4 units wide and 6 units heigh. You can figure out how many there is waiting for Santa. If they make 3M+ more and push them out aren't they really just going to this already big stack? The pipeline is overfilled because they're making more then consumers buy.

Quote:

Ah, now you are explaining yourself. This information was not available in your previous post. Why withhold the "positive PS3 view"? Why do I have to "drag" the positive PS3 things out of you?

All I can say is that you are most confused. I've stated on several occasions that 2008 Christmas is when I expect the PS3 to catch up. I've also stated why. So in reality you didn't drag out anything. You simply received a repeat of some of my previous positive PS3 views.

Last edited by BrianK on 19-Dec-2007 at 08:14 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 19-Dec-2007 at 07:54 PM.

@Lou

If you classify complaining about your statement is crying and whining, I think you need to grow up.

One of the reasons I have started a more "aggressive" way of posting, is that I feel there is a lot of hypocrisy here. Just look at how MikeB is treated here. I see hardly any complaints about that. Now when I give people a similar treatment, it's classified as offending?

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @jiyong Quote: it looks like you don't even bother to check your assumptions. As far as end of fiscal year is March you're right. I should have checked if it was the 1st or the 31st. Your extension of the concept into a blanket statement that applies to all my comments, is however wrong. But, if you'll note that was last thread and a few pages ago. There's really no need for you to point it out as the point was made, the adjustments made in the discussion and we've all moved on. Sorry you came late. I hope you're now caught up. BTW notice we were able to accomplish the correction without rudeness to each other.

I didn't mean it as a blanket statement, but more that once it can be explained into a negative way for Sony, it looks like you no longer care to check things. So it was in that context.

I don't know where you got that statement from Hirai, but in the console threads at AW there has been a lot of discussion about numbers and shipped vs. (consumer) sold. So it's not uncommon you investigate what they exactly mean with a statement like that.

Quote:

Quote: even for dedicated players HD-DVD is having a hard time to keep ahead of BR As of right now both combined are roughly 2% of DVD sales. Blu looks to be more likely to win. But, also I think the market is large enough that it can sustain 2 formats. NTSC and PAL for example have been sustained for quite a while.

What has NTSC and PAL got to do with this? You think that any "major" country would have considered a switch between NTSC or PAL the last couple of years?

It's so "funny" to see that when there is really nothing positive left for HD-DVD, "they" resort to the HD versus current DVD sales. Feels a bit like a straw man argument.

Quote:

Quote: It's just that you state Sony simply overfills the sales channel. Why wouldn't it be possible to have good PS3 sales and a "normal" filled pipeline? Do you see your negative attitude towards Sony? Let me restate so it's more clear. This is fairly easy to do. Sony makes and ships 3M+ PS3s. It doesn't matter if the sales demand for the quantity produced is there or not. This isn't negative companies ship more products and have vendors stock them on shelves all the time expecting future sales. Looking at the local Best Buy there's a PS3 stack about 5' tall by 4 units wide and 6 units heigh. You can figure out how many there is waiting for Santa. If they make 3M+ more and push them out aren't they really just going to this already big stack? The pipeline is overfilled because they're making more then consumers buy.

I think MikeB has been criticised that one shop or blog or forum post doesn't necessarily validate your opinion. Who knows how much the PS3 will sell? Probably the sales (for all consoles) will peak as we get closer to X-Mas. You are assuming they won't sell enough and overfill the pipeline. And I'm pretty sure those 3M+ are not planned to be shipped to the stack at your local Best Buy.

But seriously, who knows what an overfilled pipeline is? (Shouldn't this question be what we should be discussing?) I wouldn't be surprised that a healthy or normal pipeline can be as much as 1M. Especially when this is timed with cargo ships leaving for US and Europe. Probably some in warehouses and in physical shops. I would say it seemed that we all agreed that 10M sold to consumers at the end of March 08 doesn't sound unlikely. So why trying to "proof" Sony will overfill the pipeline? Why explain to me the difference between shipped and sold as if I don't understand? What made you think I didn't understand?

Quote:

Quote: Ah, now you are explaining yourself. This information was not available in your previous post. Why withhold the "positive PS3 view"? Why do I have to "drag" the positive PS3 things out of you? All I can say is that you are most confused. I've stated on several occasions that 2008 Christmas is when I expect the PS3 to catch up. I've also stated why. So in reality you didn't drag out anything. You simply received a repeat of some of my previous positive PS3 views.

I was confused by your post. I think anyone reading that post would classify it as rather negative. And it doesn't hurt repeating positive things about Sony. Or are you afraid we would call you MikeB II?

@jiyong

Quote:

it looks like you no longer care to check things

Note we were discussing 1 thing, shipped or sold. This was not things. The use of the plural makes the statement apply to more then the 1 thing and therefore again reads as a blanket statement as it leaves what thingS open to question of the reader. I think you mean to say - In the case of shipped or sold I didn't check this item. See this gets to the 1 point and doesn't include guessing through an application of a plural to a singular. I do disagree with your assessment. A few different sites I read had this news item that that covered this as sold not as shipped.

I went back and did the diligence following the links from some of the common gaming sites and followed back to the original article. One article on Sony's claim was mercury news -- this was Jack Trenton. Another news source is Associated press -- this is Hiraz. I did read this news source before the post.

You are very confident in your statement that it's 11 million shipped, not sold, I'm sure you'll have major news sources to share that you did your due diligence.

Quote:

What has NTSC and PAL got to do with this?

They are but one of many examples that the AV marketplace is able to sustain multiple formats. My statement is that I believe the AV marketplace is big enough to sustain multiple formats.

Quote:

"they" resort to the HD versus current DVD sales

Not sure if it was HD DVD pushed in this case. I'd have to search out the source. However last fall, when HD was beating BR, that HiDef sales were under 1% of the market. So, it has been used before in discussions where Blu-Ray wasn't winning.

Interestingly I came across that HD DVD in Japan has about 1/3 the titles that exist in the USA. Blu-Ray titles appear to significantly out number HD DVD titles in Japan. This along with the PS3 would make one expect Blu-Ray to do better in Japan.

Quote:

But seriously, who knows what an overfilled pipeline is?

As Hiraz and Trenton both said 11M sold, see the first post where they doubly clarify it's sold not shipped, this makes the question moot.

Quote:

And it doesn't hurt repeating positive things about Sony

Of course not . Again in my first reply to you I did post something positive about Sony. Are you expecting something positive about Sony in every post by every person? Reflecting on your posts I don't recall positive things about Microsoft. Turn about is fair play feel free to make one in your next post.

Last edited by BrianK on 20-Dec-2007 at 03:58 AM.

@BrianK

Brian, in all fairness if you read back this whole thread (and its predesessors) you'll
notice that most negative stuff is about PS3, with Mike defending it almost alone.
Then having his person and behavior questioned more so than the content he's
been posting. But I agree that his posting style is sometimes a bit strange, especially
his answering method.

Personally I don't post either good or bad.. I talk about first hand experience mostly.
As I have never owned a console before and have not even used one other than
my brothers PS2 and quick test of a friends 360 I do not feel I have enough info to
bash any console.

I defend PS3 somewhat when I feel the negativity is becoming rediculous. It
sometimes feels like some seek out negative stuff to post just because they like
another console or dislike Sony.

Last edited by Samwel on 20-Dec-2007 at 05:02 AM.

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@Samwel

Quote:

'm sorry but I'm not following you.. Are you saying that folding home is the most advanced highly optimized (for) Cell software in the world? So we should use it as a comparison?

The reasons why Radeon X1900 (RV570/R580) beats CELL twice over in Fold@Home are;
1. Radeon’s stream processors are more specialised compared to SPUs.
2. Radeon’s memory bandwidth is greater than CELL’s 25GB/s. This factor influences the sustain stream processing performance.
3. Radeon’s theoretical GFLOPs are considerably greater than CELL.

For Fold@Home, RV570/R580 is not compliant for IEEE 754 and integer math operations hence its limited use when compared to CELL’s SPUs. DX10 class GpGPUs solves these issues, by supporting IEEE 754 SP FP and integer math. According to Fold@Home, R600 is estimated to be +42 percent greater than R580 for Fold@Home.

AMD plans to port its math core library (currently running on IEEE 754 SSE) to RV670 (Radeon HD 3850/3870)’s stream processors i.e. RV670 has both IEEE 754 SP FP and IEEE754 DP FP support. AMD’s RV670 directly competes with ClearSpeed’s DP FP co-processor arrays and CELL in HPC market

You are forgetting that specialised middleware vendors. Both Sony and Microsoft assisted EPIC in optimising UT3 since March 2006.

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@Samwel

Quote:

I know very well the performance of graphics cards thank you.

If that was the case, you should have known that the recent PC games are GPU bound** and high end and high priced CPUs plays a minor role to the baseline GPU performance. This mirrors Fold@Home's remarks i.e. ~30 percent of CPU performance should be available for RV570/R580. For Fold@Home, PC’s X64 CPU and RV570/R580 is like PPE CPU and SPU relationship i.e. weak CPU managing an array of stream co-processors.

There's not much difference (@1280x720p and max details) between C2D @2.2Ghz vs C2D @3.0Ghz with Geforce 8600GT GDDR3, while playing UT3 and GearsOfWar.

**Work loads bias towards the GPU. GPUs like G70 shows it's weakness in complex stream/shading processing. Mirrors Fold@Home results and remarks.

Quote:

Whatever you say you can't convince me that you'll get a PC for the same price as a PS3

A cheap PC based around Radeon HD3850 will do the trick.

Quote:

to the advanced graphics cards and fast multi core CPUs

This shows that you haven't "played" Crysis. Crysis only uses a single CPU core . Crysis is not as advanced in multi-CPU support when compared to Epic's Unreal3.

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@Samwel

Quote:

All their own games are smooth as silk, 60fps the best gfx

Depends on the gfx details. Ultimately, RSX’s 8 ROPS and non-Early-Z culling hardware will limit PS3. RSX’s 8 ROPS is a downgrade compared to Geforce 7900GS's 16 ROPs.

NV introduces Early-Z culling hardware in G80 families.

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