I'll pick up a second hand PS3 when it's been out for a couple more years and there's a decent back catalog of games for it. (Always stay a couple of years behind the bleeding edge, then you get to try out all the latest stuff for cheap! ) The new Gran Turismo and Silent Hill 5 may speed up my decision.

In the mean time, I have Mario Kart on pre-order for my Wii, and Force Unleashed should follow soon after that!

_________________

@BrianK

Well if MS can get a BR reader faster than the one in the PS3 then it wouldn't be too slow...

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: @jtsiren But about the PS3, games (even sequels of PS2 games) will be slow coming because of the "arms race". Every developer wants to release a title "worthy" of the PS3 and have it have the best graphics. Hence development times have gone up to the 2-3 year range. It'll be too late by then... Developers should focus on rock solid 720p games rather than stuttering 1080p games.

It's possible to do 60Hz 1080p on the PS3 for some games. GT Prologue is an example.
Sure it would have been a good idea for some of the "lame" programmers out there that couldn't tap into the power of the PS3 to stick with 720p, but 1080p 60Hz is certainly possible.

Quote:

If MS can release a BR-equipped 360 for the holidays, Sony is doomed. However, I have heard that Sony is increasing the cost of the BR lenses to 3rd party manufacturers so that a 360 with BR would cost more than a PS3. With software sales for the 360 much higher, I think Microsoft could eat it though... Atleast the 360 has backwards compatibility....and a better library so far.

Don't blame Sony. Toshiba was willing to eat the loss. This time it's up to M$ to eat the loss. I would be very, very surprised when M$ would release a BR 360. I think they will only go for the add-on, but that probably can't compete with a PS3 on price. Unless M$ wants to eat the loss.

360 has BC? You mean recompiled games? At least in the US and Japan you can still buy the PS3 with BC. Let's hope they can bring those machines back to Europe.

Quote:

These price increases have lead to higher priced stand-alone BR players since Toshiba stopped making HD-DVD players... Thanks Sony!

It's not uncommon that X-Mas sees some spectacular prices and in Q1 prices go up, compared to X-Mas. But if you go to pricegrabber.com you can find a couple of BR players at around $350. Probably the prices will drop further once the BD Live players are fully launched.

Every disadvantage has it's advantage (as the most famous Dutch football player would say). Now that HD-DVD is gone, you might pay a little bit more, but at least you can't bet on the wrong horse anymore. On the other hand, you can still buy the PS3 a BR player for the same price as last year.

@jiyong

Quote:

It's possible to do 60Hz 1080p on the PS3 for some games. GT Prologue is an example. Sure it would have been a good idea for some of the "lame" programmers out there that couldn't tap into the power of the PS3 to stick with 720p, but 1080p 60Hz is certainly possible.

The programmers has to balance pixel, texture and ROPS resource with screen resolution.

Like nVIDIA G70 class GPUs, RSX has issues with concurrent pixel and texture operations(1) e.g Geforce 8600GT/9500GS delivers better UT3 performance over PS3 edition.

Also, there's only 8 ROPS in RSX, which is less than Geforce7900GS's 16 ROPS and it's missing G80's Early-Z hardware. SPUs can be pulled into fixing RSX’s front end and concurrent pixel shading/texture operation issues (2).

RSX's ROPS count makes it compable to a mid-range Geforce 7600GT/8600GT/ 9500GS.

Reference
1. http://www.nvidia.ru/content/PDF/Geforce_8800/GeForce_8800_GPU_Architecture_Technical_Brief.pdf Page 35
2. http://research.scea.com/ps3_deferred_shading.pdf

Last edited by Hammer on 05-Apr-2008 at 11:25 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Apr-2008 at 11:24 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 05-Apr-2008 at 11:20 PM.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@jiyong

Quote:

jiyong wrote: @Lou Quote: Lou wrote: @jtsiren But about the PS3, games (even sequels of PS2 games) will be slow coming because of the "arms race". Every developer wants to release a title "worthy" of the PS3 and have it have the best graphics. Hence development times have gone up to the 2-3 year range. It'll be too late by then... Developers should focus on rock solid 720p games rather than stuttering 1080p games. It's possible to do 60Hz 1080p on the PS3 for some games. GT Prologue is an example. Sure it would have been a good idea for some of the "lame" programmers out there that couldn't tap into the power of the PS3 to stick with 720p, but 1080p 60Hz is certainly possible.

I have every confidence in the PS3's ability to run Bejeweled in 1080p 60Hz...

Quote:

Quote: If MS can release a BR-equipped 360 for the holidays, Sony is doomed. However, I have heard that Sony is increasing the cost of the BR lenses to 3rd party manufacturers so that a 360 with BR would cost more than a PS3. With software sales for the 360 much higher, I think Microsoft could eat it though... Atleast the 360 has backwards compatibility....and a better library so far. Don't blame Sony. Toshiba was willing to eat the loss. This time it's up to M$ to eat the loss. I would be very, very surprised when M$ would release a BR 360. I think they will only go for the add-on, but that probably can't compete with a PS3 on price. Unless M$ wants to eat the loss.

So Sony is the only manufacturer but yet I shouldn't blame them? The only reason the PS3 hasn't also gone up in price is because of competition with the Wii and 360. Be sensible here.

Quote:

360 has BC? You mean recompiled games? At least in the US and Japan you can still buy the PS3 with BC. Let's hope they can bring those machines back to Europe.

What does the user care the method? That's the only future hope of an b/c with the currently produced PS3 models. Sure 80GB models are still on "some" shelves, but for how long?

Quote:

Quote: These price increases have lead to higher priced stand-alone BR players since Toshiba stopped making HD-DVD players... Thanks Sony! It's not uncommon that X-Mas sees some spectacular prices and in Q1 prices go up, compared to X-Mas. But if you go to pricegrabber.com you can find a couple of BR players at around $350. Probably the prices will drop further once the BD Live players are fully launched. Every disadvantage has it's advantage (as the most famous Dutch football player would say). Now that HD-DVD is gone, you might pay a little bit more, but at least you can't bet on the wrong horse anymore. On the other hand, you can still buy the PS3 a BR player for the same price as last year.

I'll just stick with regular DVD's until I can find them anymore. That's plenty good enough for me for a few more years...

@Lou
Quote:

So Sony is the only manufacturer but yet I shouldn't blame them? The only reason the PS3 hasn't also gone up in price is because of competition with the Wii and 360.

Actually I think it even more then this. We didn't see the PS1 or PS2 have changes and consumer price reduction the first year. Clearly Wii and the 360 being popular have had enough influence that Sony felt they had to make changes the first year of their console. One can definitely read this as their launch console didn't make long term market sense except to the first fangirls and fanboys.

Quote:

What does the user care the method? That's the only future hope of an b/c with the currently produced PS3 models. Sure 80GB models are still on "some" shelves, but for how long?

I think you're spot on here. Being overly concerned with the minute detail is interesting to the geeks. To the general joe user it's backwards compatible because 450+ old Xbox games run they really don't care how. They're happy those games work.

So to enter the Geek world... In many cases backward compatibility is limited to being able to read old data. Word Perfect 6.0 was a major core change to the previous versions. It doesn't run the old WP5.1 for example it only reads the old data of 5.1 formatted documents. Another example - Office XP doesn't run on WIn95 it's different but it's still considered b/c because it can read the older Office documents. The 360 is similar in this sense. For an example the game receives a main engine recomplie to PowerPC so it works on the 360. The updated 360 version of Halo2 still reads the original Halo2 data.

Last edited by BrianK on 07-Apr-2008 at 04:06 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: So Sony is the only manufacturer but yet I shouldn't blame them? The only reason the PS3 hasn't also gone up in price is because of competition with the Wii and 360. Actually I think it even more then this. We didn't see the PS1 or PS2 have changes and consumer price reduction the first year. Clearly Wii and the 360 being popular have had enough influence that Sony felt they had to make changes the first year of their console. One can definitely read this as their launch console didn't make long term market sense except to the first fangirls and fanboys.

I guess I should have re-phrased it as the only reason the PS3 HAS come down in price is because of competition...

@Lou

Quote:

I have every confidence in the PS3's ability to run Bejeweled in 1080p 60Hz...

A typical "Lou" answer. Care to make a "sensible" reply next time? I'm talking about GT Prologue and you counter with Bejeweled? Grow up Lou!

Quote:

Sure 80GB models are still on "some" shelves, but for how long?

Rumours are the MGS4 bundle will be the 80GB model. Not sure if Europe will get them too. It could be that they only upgrade the drive from 40 to 80 GB, but according to the rumours it will be the current 80 GB model.

And a Sony America VP admitted they underestimated demand for the current 80GB model and will replenish the American market.

But I guess you don't read positive PS3 news: http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/03/sony-underestimated-80gb-ps3-demand/

Makes you wonder how much higher the sales for the PS3 could have been...

Quote:

So Sony is the only manufacturer but yet I shouldn't blame them?

How do you know Sony is the only manufacturer? And AGAIN, when M$ wants to come out with a cheap BR add-on, this time they have no "friend" that is willing to eat the loss, like Toshiba did for them last time.

I wouldn't want to call the HD DVD vs BR fight "healthy" competition and in the end Toshiba showed us it wasn't a "healthy" fight. Why do you think there were hardly any other CE companies that wanted to bring out HD DVD players? Because Toshiba made it impossible to make profit from HD DVD players!

@jiyong

Quote:

jiyong wrote: @Lou Quote: I have every confidence in the PS3's ability to run Bejeweled in 1080p 60Hz... A typical "Lou" answer. Care to make a "sensible" reply next time? I'm talking about GT Prologue and you counter with Bejeweled? Grow up Lou!

Read Hammer's reply and mine and come to an educated conclusion. There are trade-offs. The PS3 is not an ubercomputer. The RSX has limitations. SPU's can only assist so much. I'll grow up right after you do...

@jiyong

Quote:

jiyong wrote: @Lou Rumours are the MGS4 bundle will be the 80GB model. Not sure if Europe will get them too. It could be that they only upgrade the drive from 40 to 80 GB, but according to the rumours it will be the current 80 GB model.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/04/07/gta-iv-40gb-playstation-3-bundle-surfaces-in-europe/

@Lou

A bundle to grab my attention would be:

1) PS3
2) Dualshock 3 (this side of hell freezing over would be nice )
3) C&C: Red Alert 3
4) Keyboard and mouse
5) Yellow Dog Linux thrown in for good measure

It could be a 'Computer Lite' bundle as it were; computer style gaming without the bloatware, hideous cost and Windoze!! I'd snap it up

Last edited by BigD on 07-Apr-2008 at 09:57 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD
Quote:

1) PS3 2) Dualshock 3 (this side of hell freezing over would be nice ) 3) C&C: Red Alert 3 4) Keyboard and mouse 5) Yellow Dog Linux thrown in for good measure

6) E-UAE

Fixed

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Lou A bundle to grab my attention would be: 1) PS3 2) Dualshock 3 (this side of hell freezing over would be nice ) 3) C&C: Red Alert 3 4) Keyboard and mouse 5) Yellow Dog Linux thrown in for good measure It could be a 'Computer Lite' bundle as it were; computer style gaming without the bloatware, hideous cost and Windoze!! I'd snap it up

Actually, the Sixasis has ceased production and the DualShock3 is just about to become available, if not already in the US. Hopefully the tilt functionality can serve as a gyro-mouse if a mouse is not used. Hopefully it is sensitive enough...

I have one of the older C&C games on the PC. Starcraft FTW! I may have to get 2 when it is released.

Interestingly, I haven't heard of any updates regarding 'Home' since Phil Harrison left...

LOL(s)
http://kotaku.com/376987/microsoft-to-rip-off-wii-remote-by-end-of-year-says-source

Seems Microsoft will be releasing a Wii-like remote and touting how easy it will be for developers to port their Wii games to the 360.

I think the battle is just starting...

Unless it starts getting bundled with the 360, how many do you think will sell...although Guitar Hero has changed people's views of expensive add-on peripherals...

My "prediction" is that Sony releases a pointer that plugs into the dualshock3's usb port... It will be called the DualChuk...

@Lou

Quote:

Seems Microsoft will be releasing a Wii-like remote and touting how easy it will be for developers to port their Wii games to the 360.

Meh. I'm sure some will go for it. I'd vote for a Blu-Ray add-on over this.

With the 360 on RezHD additional controllers can be used to double for the PS2's Trance Vibrator on Rez. So that 'play' is taken care of by the 360 already.

@Lou

You want to discuss "sensibly"?

How come you are comparing GT Prologue with Bejeweled?

That was just juvenile. Anything in my posts that was juvenile?

@jiyong

Quote:

jiyong wrote: @Lou You want to discuss "sensibly"? How come you are comparing GT Prologue with Bejeweled? That was just juvenile. Anything in my posts that was juvenile?

I never compared one to the other...once again you attempt to put words in my mouth. Infact you didn't even quote me.

GT Prologue is a glorified demo that doesn't have all the finished features of the final product which probably will take into account alot more things.
Secondly, the Bejeweleed comment was not an insult, it's just a point, but you, being juvenile, took it as so. What you didn't read into (as usual) is that it depends on the complexity of the game as to whether 1080p @ a rock solid 60fps is even possible.

If the PS3 is so ultra powerful like you fantasize about, why isn't every game running at 60fps in 1080p? Don't blame "lazy" developers because then you are calling every developer lazy rather than looking at all the things that are happening onscreen or in code to realize how some games just require more cpu power just for the main game engine and can't spare the SPU's to do any pre-rendering to assist the RSX. These are just facts.

@Lou

Quote:

If the PS3 is so ultra powerful like you fantasize about, why isn't every game running at 60fps in 1080p? Don't blame "lazy" developers because then you are calling every developer lazy rather than looking at all the things that are happening onscreen or in code to realize how some games just require more cpu power just for the main game engine and can't spare the SPU's to do any pre-rendering to assist the RSX. These are just facts

Lou, those are not facts but rather misinformation. Using the Cell SPUs require redesign like I stated here on AmigaWorld over 3 years ago. It takes more effort, but can yield really wonderful results.

For the near future MGS4 will be the most demanding PS3 game, it will run in 1080p (60 FPS and 30 FPS during hectic scenes). However much more can be achieved in due time, Rome wasn't built in a day. I advise you to read some Insomniac documents (Cell pioneers) to better understand the Cell if you would want to state facts:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184843

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: If the PS3 is so ultra powerful like you fantasize about, why isn't every game running at 60fps in 1080p? Don't blame "lazy" developers because then you are calling every developer lazy rather than looking at all the things that are happening onscreen or in code to realize how some games just require more cpu power just for the main game engine and can't spare the SPU's to do any pre-rendering to assist the RSX. These are just facts Lou, those are not facts but rather misinformation. Using the Cell SPUs require redesign like I stated here on AmigaWorld over 3 years ago. It takes more effort, but can yield really wonderful results. For the near future MGS4 will be the most demanding PS3 game, it will run in 1080p (60 FPS and 30 FPS during hectic scenes). However much more can be achieved in due time, Rome wasn't built in a day. I advise you to read some Insomniac documents (Cell pioneers) to better understand the Cell if you would want to state facts: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184843

Mike,
The only facts so far are the games that exist. What you talk about is theory and potential. And don't get things twisted like jiyong, I'm not saying the PS3 lacks power, I'm just saying it can't do all things all the time. As for MSG4 being 60fps, I don't doubt that for the covert aspects of the game where the scene is slow moving and there aren't that many NPC's to deal with at once. So you see, it's quite situational.

And that's just it, 1080p @ 60fps will be situational, not standard fare...which you admit here...and that's all I've been saying...

Last edited by Lou on 09-Apr-2008 at 02:14 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 09-Apr-2008 at 02:13 AM.

@Lou

Quote:

ctually, the Sixasis has ceased production and the DualShock3 is just about to become available, if not already in the US.

The UK and Europe are being used as a dumping ground to sell all remaining stocks of Sixaxis pads! The Dualshock 3 hasn't even got a fixed UK release date yet!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios