@Lou

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and actually ADDED features (802.11N & wireless controllers)

The PS3 had Wi-Fi and better HDMI since launch. How does this help the current XBox 360 install base who don't want to buy a new console?

The hardware features which were dropped were non-crucial early adopter premium features, I already said they had to go for the long run for addressing a wider mass market before launch, so that was expected.

But I still would like the Sony to launch a more expensive premium PS3 with card readers, extra USB ports and integrated PVR functionality (my main complaint on the hardware side at launch).

@MikeB

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Not really, I think it's better to invest into consumer's hardware. They could have not rushed the XBox 360 onto the market and make it sturdy, that could have saved Microsoft 2 billion USD.

While everyone agrees the 360 was not as robust as it should have been this has no relationship to the include or exclude of a HDMI port, which what your response was. Your response was to a post about present criticisms of the 360. It's had HDMI for a long time and thus your point isn't a criticism of any Xbox in roughly the last 2 years.

I also disagree that it's 'better' to invest into consumer hardware. Products are always decisions between expenses and market acceptance. The goal is to find the sweet spot for one's product. When comparing 7th Gen consoles the Wii clearly is able to accomplish this.

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Kinect is said to launch at 149 USD

The Kinect and the Move have the same problems. Both are attempts to encourage casual gamers to put aside the Wii and take up a High Def console. Casual gamers, as loose rule, spend less on their systems and on their games. A seperate controller makes these two systems even more expensive. Both Sony and Microsoft's attempts seem to be out of alignment for how the casual gamers spend their money.

Part of the question I see is how one is going to use the system. The Move is rumored to be close to $100 each. If one is goaling for the social aspect of gaming this is fairly expensive as the 4 players each need a Move. A bit expensive if you're the lone gamer in the house but not bad. The Kinect at $150 is even more expensive if you're the lone gamer in the house. But, if one if goaling for the social aspect of gaming those 4 players are much less expensive each, not bad.

I expect Sony and Microsoft to have new console+new controller bundles. Some of Microsoft's have surfaced showing the bundle to be $100 more than the console itself. We'll see how this Christmas this encourages the new and more casual users to uptake those platforms.

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And ESPN is of limited value outside of the US

I agree. Doesn't mean it isn't of value to many. There are other things Sony does like this too, for example there is no PlayTV in the USA.

@MikeB

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How does this help the current XBox 360 install base who don't want to buy a new console?...The hardware features which were dropped were non-crucial early adopter premium features

IMO backwards compatibility of the most popular console ever is not only an early adopter feature. Sony could be taking the large PS2 user base and giving them a platform to continue their PS2 investment. Instead Sony has said if you want 7th Gen well sorry no PS2 for you. The result is they have opened doors for consumers to look at all 3 consoles. I'm sure the Wii has profited , and likely the 360 as the Arcade is fairly popular, by Sony's misstep here. Backwards compatibility for ever PS3 could help Sony push back into #1. ... How does this help current PS3 users whose consoles need to be replaced or the future market? It doesn't. It should be a free feature like the 360.

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integrated PVR functionality

Being a tech enthusiast the PVR is dead to me.

@BrianK

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While everyone agrees the 360 was not as robust as it should have been this has no relationship to the include or exclude of a HDMI port, which what your response was.

You insisted the timing wasn't right for HDMI (something I don't agree with). Not rushing out the console would have allowed the 360 to launch the same time as the PS3 (apart from being better built).

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is fairly expensive as the 4 players each need a Move

Altough like on the Wii you would require to buy more controllers, the Move package is said to include games and the Playstation Eye. Seperate additional controllers should be less expensive than the whole package.

@BrianK

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IMO backwards compatibility of the most popular console ever is not only an early adopter feature. Sony could be taking the large PS2 user base and giving them a platform to continue their PS2 investment. Instead Sony has said if you want 7th Gen well sorry no PS2 for you.

There were sound technical and financial reasons why the old PS2 chips had to go in the PS3. It was known well in advance. If it were software based already I think it's unlikely Sony would have dropped it just like PS1 backwards compatibility is still there. That's not to say one day Sony will complete a solid PS2 emulator for all current PS3 owners on day. People can still buy a cheap PS2 at this point, IMO it's not that big of a deal.

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Being a tech enthusiast the PVR is dead to me.

That's a puzzling statement. What do you mean?

@BrianK

Digital Foundry explains why Kinect seems so laggy compared to Playstation Move (or Nintendo's Wii-mote):

"Kinect has a traditional RGB camera in it, as found in a multitude of webcams and mobile phones, and it's capable of a standard 640x480 resolution, operating at 30 frames per second."

"However, it is important to point out that there are a huge range of factors that conspire to make Kinect react differently depending on the game being played. Rare's Nick Burton, who we spoke to at the hands-on event, was very specific in pointing out that his game operates with a latency of 150ms, not including display lag.

We've seen in previous Digital Foundry tests on console game latency that 30FPS titles typically operate at 100ms in a best-case scenario. While Kinect Sports can run at 60FPS (certainly the bowling does), the scan rate of Kinect is limited to 30FPS, so at the very best we should never assume to see any kind of response better than the 100ms "standard"."

"Even in our own latency tests, we can see an enormous spread of controller lag across many titles running at the same frame-rates and we can imagine the situation being a lot worse with Kinect, definitely in the short term.

As pointed out in our initial hands-on yesterday and indeed way back in the original gamescom Digital Foundry vs. Project Natal feature, the lag factor definitely feels like more of an issue simply because we are used to our actions being transmitted to the console at the highest, fastest level."

"Even in our own latency tests, we can see an enormous spread of controller lag across many titles running at the same frame-rates and we can imagine the situation being a lot worse with Kinect, definitely in the short term.

As pointed out in our initial hands-on yesterday and indeed way back in the original gamescom Digital Foundry vs. Project Natal feature, the lag factor definitely feels like more of an issue simply because we are used to our actions being transmitted to the console at the highest, fastest level.

Our hands and fingers are capable of extremely fast reaction times, so while jettisoning the joypad may appear to make the games more accessible, the human body as a whole cannot react anywhere near as fast as our brain-to-finger reflexes. This is why Kinect games that, on paper, have the same overall latency as some more traditional joypad games, actually feel a lot less responsive."

"Probably the best source we have on the actual additional load that Kinect incurs on the Xenon CPU comes from the Wired magazine article on the then-Project Natal run a few months back. In that story, Xbox's technological frontiersman Alex Kipman pegged the load at 10 to 15 per cent depending on the tasks being asked of the various libraries."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-kinect-tech-analysis

Of course, the Playstation Eye can do 60 FPS in that resolution (even 120 FPS at half this resolution). Combined with the easily trackable lights this results in a 1:1 experience, you will have to move at superhuman speeds and need superhuman perception to experience any significant lag.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: and actually ADDED features (802.11N & wireless controllers) The PS3 had Wi-Fi and better HDMI since launch. How does this help the current XBox 360 install base who don't want to buy a new console? The hardware features which were dropped were non-crucial early adopter premium features, I already said they had to go for the long run for addressing a wider mass market before launch, so that was expected. But I still would like the Sony to launch a more expensive premium PS3 with card readers, extra USB ports and integrated PVR functionality (my main complaint on the hardware side at launch).

Since the slim dropped the front memory card connectors because their is flash built-in now, they were able to add USB ports in addition to what I mentioned before.

Take launch price into account. The 360 has consistenly added features (HDMI) over it's launch unit without ever a price premium.

Do you still wonder why PS3 is last? The cost of multiple MOVE controllers will make Sony AGAIN more expensive than MS' Kinect. Even Nintendo is poised to add WM+ to their new controllers (see RVL-036). So once again Sony is last when it comes to affordability. With NetflixHD streaming, BluRay is not a good enough reason any longer to own a PS3... With HDD installation options, again negates BR storage and that's despite alot of PS3 games still requiring an HDD install to even play on the PS3. There is no possibility for a PS3 'Arcade Pack' because a HDD is a mandatory option. With Sony, it's the 'all or none' rule. How does that benefit the consumer's situation?

@MikeB

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That's not to say one day Sony will complete a solid PS2 emulator for all current PS3 owners on day. People can still buy a cheap PS2 at this point, IMO it's not that big of a deal.

It 'IS' a big deal as I would have bought a PS3 already if backwards compatibility and Dualshock 3 controller were included in the same package! Sony have always left out features in this generation and I am no longer as interested in the PS3 as I would have been. I am not a fanboy and as there is no backwards compatibility I might as well keep my options open and with the Slim/Valhalla model of the XBox just round the corner I might buy the first reliable 360! This generation has been a depressing choice between kiddy console/expensive but lacking media centre and unreliable RROD machine!

I've remained with the PS2 until the dust settles and i have to say a reliable 360 is now more likely than a backwards compatible PS3 so that's the way I'll probably go! Sony are only developing software emulation now in order to put PS2 games on the PSNetwork and further claw back their losses this is not good for consumers. I was interested in dabbling with YDL on the PS3 but that's not even there any more. Sony are always dropping features for their own financial reason! The 'Playstation' brand is a confusing mess these days!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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It 'IS' a big deal

I know it's a big deal to some, but I don't think it's that big of a deal overall. If you really want a backwards compatible PS3 you can probably find one somewhere second hand with a DS3 controller.

For example I have given away all my PS2 games I bought for my PS3 to my wife's nephew (if Sony one day does release a PS3 with integrated PVR I will sell mine as well and replace it). If you can afford to buy PS3 games, you will likely lack the time and interest to play PS2 games. Various PS2 games will be remade for HDTV, I read after the God of War remakes it's now the turn for a Sly Cooper series PS3 remake.

@MikeB

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If you really want a backwards compatible PS3 you can probably find one somewhere second hand with a DS3 controller.

How about I keep my PS2 and buy an XBox 360? What is the incentive to stick with Sony if I'm not bothered about Blu-Ray?

My favourite games that I'd buy; Ghostbusters, Fear, the Orange Box etc are better on the 360 and although C&C Red Alert is better on the PS3 they didn't make use of its ability to use a mouse and keyboard! If I like the look of the new 360 then it's odds on to take my money! You can't say I didn't give Sony a chance to win me round!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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How about I keep my PS2 and buy an XBox 360?

Sounds swell to me.

@MikeB

Refreshing non-partisan attitude, good stuff! I've been scanning PS3 250gb bundle prices and can't see anything on offer other than Mod Racers bundled or God of War III! Surely there should be more ranges of offers. The 120gb seems the standard option and the 250gb a rarity at the moment. Why is it so hard to buy a 250gb bundle with PlayTV and Super Street Fighter IV for instance? Even if I wanted a PS3 the retailers are trying their best to offer the worst bundles ever! Hopefully some better (non-Move) bundles will be launched at E3. I'll give Sony one more chance, as I really can't bring myself to support M$!!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Watching Nintendo's E3 conference right now, the accuracy of Wii motion plus in Zelda is plain horrible....

Last edited by MikeB on 15-Jun-2010 at 05:22 PM.

The first Zelda presentation failed badly, Nintendo blamed the problems on inteference from wireless tech used by the public...

@MikeB

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Not rushing out the console would have allowed the 360 to launch the same time as the PS3 (apart from being better built).

Microsoft believe they had to be first to market to own a larger piece of the pie in the 7th Generation. Also, the Xbox was costing money and they wanted to reduce launches. Certainly mistakes were made in the design and/or execution of the 360 hardware.

I argue the PS3 would have launched even later had the 360 not started the 7th Gen. Also the PS3 had it's own mistakes. System software has had hiccups. Emulation for the generation was not thoroughlly thought out. Online ecosystem wasn't as fully baked. Pricing was too high, Japan received price cuts before launch for example. Hardware costs were too high, Europe received the reduced PS2 ability because of chip removal.

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There were sound technical and financial reasons why the old PS2 chips had to go in the PS3.

I don't think we need this dance again. Along with those 'sound' reasons there were negatives as well. If a PS2 breaks and someone wants to buy a replacement they are there. But, think of the migration path that would exist if instead that user could use a PS3. Because they can't do that when the user wants next gen Sony has opened a door for them to weigh the other options. This is a negative you seem to not accept.

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What do you mean?

PVR and DVR are 'old'. Why should I duplicate data from the providers to timeshift that data to my needs. Instead the providers should store the data. They should allow me to grab the data whenever I want to grab it. I see as flexible on demand provision of media as playing beyond the DVR. And the plus is it's often cheaper.


@Lou
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The 360 has consistenly added features (HDMI) over it's launch unit without ever a price premium

True Tech Enthusiasts realize that technology should provide us more for less. (Moore's law is our lover.) The PS3 is anti this idea. Each console has cut features to cut price. The only real change has been an increase in HDD space. (Not a big deal. If one 's not using the space they have more doesn't add anything.) And you're right the 360 continues to bring features out as it brings prices down.

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With NetflixHD streaming, BluRay is not a good enough reason any longer to own a PS3

I agree. BluRay should be the last physical media for the home. One buys movies to show off to friends their favorites list, IMO. 360 also has Zune HD streaming.

@BrianK

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This is a negative you seem to not accept.

Not true, reread what I actually said.

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Why should I duplicate data from the providers to timeshift that data to my needs. Instead the providers should store the data. They should allow me to grab the data whenever I want to grab it. I see as flexible on demand provision of media as playing beyond the DVR. And the plus is it's often cheaper.

Easy example. I had an appointment yesterday and missed the first hour of the soccer match between Holland and Denmark. With a DVR you simply task it to record, when back you start watching with a 1 hour lag or forward to the more interesting parts of the match. Instead I used my iPhone to watch the first goal while on the road (not that good, small not so bright screen..)

The fun thing is also the PS3 is able to record while playing games! (No downloading involved!)

@ Lou

New Golden Eye for the Wii announced.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @ Lou New Golden Eye for the Wii announced.

Flip back a few pages. I announced that 2 days ago.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: Watching Nintendo's E3 conference right now, the accuracy of Wii motion plus in Zelda is plain horrible....

I'm sure that makes you smile.

To me it looked like the flashing cameras were making the WiiRemote think it was being pointed at the screen at times causing weird spacial configuration issues between the direct pointing mechanism and the new WM+.

Basically, it was sayinh: how have I moved this far if I am still pointing at the screen.
In MOVE terms, it's like having multiple EyeToy cameras all over the place and not being able to figure out which one is the correct p.o.v.

As Nintendo said, you'll be able to try it for yourself and see that it does indeed work correctly.

3D pictures was quite the bombshell on the 3DS. Kinect should also be able to do this but it's not very mobile. Also, I think Nintendo is subsidizing 3G network for the 3DS to always be online.

Once again - NO FEE for ONLINE.

Seems like 2D platformers was the theme of the day. :/ Though they did look nice.
3rd party support for the 3DS is huge! Bombshell huge!:

•Square Enix and Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy franchise, Chocobo Racing 3D
•THQ and Saints Row
•DJ Hero
•Capcom and Resident Evil
•Ubisoft and Assassin's Creed
•Namco and Ridge Racer
•Konami and the Metal Gear Solid franchise
•EA Sports and Madden
•Tecmo Koei and Ninja Gaiden, Dead or Alive
•Professor Layton and the Mask of Mircale

I might have to buy one. Wow!

Last edited by Lou on 15-Jun-2010 at 06:45 PM.

@MikeB

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Easy example. I had an appointment yesterday and missed the first hour of the soccer match between Holland and Denmark. With a DVR you simply task it to record, when back you start watching with a 1 hour lag or forward to the more interesting parts of the match.

It's not a question of what a DVR can do. I've had them since the first gen TIVO. All this is do able with some online vendors and should be where the future goes.

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The fun thing is also the PS3 is able to record while playing games!

You said 360's ESPN isn't available in Europe so not a selling point. PlayTV for the PS3 isn't available in the USA so not a selling point. Your example is fun I agree. But, as a Tech Enthusiast the Myth and Windows Media Center were multitasking and in my home years ago I've been there and done that.

Online highly flexible to user's demand is the next step past the decade old DVR.