@MikeB

Quote:

The Cell is special in this regard to other CPUs.

What happens if Xbox 360 was “fused” with Xenos and Xenon into one package? Would you still treat them separately?

Other systems are shipped with GPUs and the performance is calculated on system platform e.g. “AMD GAME!”, AMD Yamato, AMD Puma, AMD Yukon, AMD Fusion, Intel Calpella, NVIDIA ION and 'etc'.

Quote:

The RSX is more powerful than the Xenos

Multi-platform games doesn’t show this. How did you conclude this when there is a hardware design flaw with NV47/G70 that will debunk any peek theoretical numbers?

RSX's LibCGM wouldn't change the fact there's is a hardware design flaw with NV47/G70. So, what's RSX's branch granularity? What's RSX's Z-cull competency, What's RSX vertex shader available resources? What's RSX register size? How RSX hide latencies (hint, the purpose hardware threads in newer GPUs).

These are some of the areas that the SPEs patches the RSX.

What RSX’s addittional hardware functions? For example, does it have Tessellation unit like ATI Xenos or ATI R600?

If you read http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/4/10
You'll will notice that Xenos is closer to CPU's vector co-processor. This is one of the features that makes this a "GpGPU".

So, are you going to disregard on what Shippy has stated on XBOX 360 vs PS3?

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2009 at 11:03 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2009 at 10:56 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2009 at 10:43 AM.

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@jtsiren

Quote:

jtsiren wrote: @Hammer Quote: But can Shippy's insight on both console's processors finally answer the age-old debate about which console is actually more powerful? "I'm going to have to answer with an 'it depends,'" laughs Shippy, after a pause. "Again, they're completely different models. So in the PS3, you've got this Cell chip which has massive parallel processing power, the PowerPC core, multiple SPU cores… it's got a GPU that is, in the model here, processing more in the Cell chip and less in the GPU. So that's one processing paradigm -- a heterogeneous paradigm." "With the Xbox 360, you've got more of a traditional multi-core system, and you've got three PowerPC cores, each of them having dual threads -- so you've got six threads running there, at least in the CPU. Six threads in Xbox 360, and eight or nine threads in the PS3 -- but then you've got to factor in the GPU," Shippy explains. "The GPU is highly sophisticated in the Xbox 360." He concludes: "At the end of the day, when you put them all together, depending on the software, I think they're pretty equal, even though they're completely different processing models." Very good summary and one that I can easily agree with. Reading the whole article, it also gives a rather good, in generic terms, summary of what the pros and cons of Cell in game development are. All in all, Xbox 360 is (still) surprisingly close to the performance of PS3 which on paper was supposed to blow it to kingdom come. Had PS3 had a better GPU, things would be vastly different. Still, I think it is to be expected that PS3 may pull past Xbox 360 performance when software matures, but the difference may not be all that big... time will tell!

According to http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/4/9
Current Xbox 360 APIs doesn't expose all of Xenos's capabilities i.e. it’s like running DX10.0 on DX10.1 hardware (e.g. Global illumination, Tessellation).

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2009 at 10:48 AM.

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Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Hammer Quote: Didn't you read KZ2's rendering details i.e. note the "drop" features? Actually what they said was the opposite, the added more and more effects, more so than originally planned because of the headroom the technology provides them. And they say they still have a lot of headroom left to do a lot more in future games.

What effects are these?

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@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @BrianK Quote: Something related to performance 16 core for max performance. It appears that after 8 cores the performance levels out and after 16 cores and especially towards 64 cores the performance drops. One has to wonder how this plays out in the Cell2. The PS3 has 9 threads (one can read cores). If the Cell2 is coming will extra SPE's give it any more usable power? This appears to be in reference to desktop GPUs, though it's generally considered going beyond 8 cores is going to be immensely difficult. The same goes for software, I wrote this back in 2006. There will be scaling issues with any processor but things like GPUs don't have scaling problems and Cell is designed specifically get around them. On a traditional desktop processor the cores have to be kept in sync (i.e. coherent). This means communication between caches goes up drastically every time you add a new core.

Erm, the purpose of shared L2 or L3 cache.....

Quote:

GPUs generally have small non-coherent caches so this isn't a problem, Cell has non-coherent local stores so again there's no problem. As long as you can parallelize the problem and keep upping the memory bandwidth GPUs and Cell are not going to suffer from this problem. Desktop processors and Xenon will.

Nvidia G80 GPU has a software managed L1 cache and a hardware managed L2 cache i.e. the L2 cache is shared/common. The G80 employs a hybrid cache system.
GPUs are reliant on its large sets of registers.

Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2009 at 12:29 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 19-Jan-2009 at 12:24 PM.

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@MikeB

Since you like comparing the 360/PS3 to the ST/Amiga, look at what the evidence shows you: The PS3 had the more powerful cpu, the 360 has better custom chips.

Your PS3 is the Atari ST
The 360 is the Amiga.

Meanwhile, the cludgy Mac (Wii) with it's tiny screen outsells them all.

@MikeB

Quote:

The RSX is more powerful than the Xenos

If anti-aliasing is used doesn't the RSX end up with half the Xenos pixel per sec rate? Isn't this due to the superior setup relating to anti-aliasing within the Xenos? Also isn't the RSX less efficent than the Xenos? So comparing actual performance to theoretical paper #s are worse for the RSX.

Also doesn't the RSX handle vertices worse than the Xenos? Isn't the recommendation for this to use the SPEs?

While some theoretical #s might be better for the RSX in the real world it appears the Xenos is closer to this gen's video cards and the RSX is closer to something from 2004.

Sony stated 1.8TFlops for the RSX comes with free Kool-Aid.

@minator and @wegster.
Thanks for the feedback from that article and the impact on the Cell. I think the difficulty for games is going to be one in software. Let's say the PS4 can have 2 Cell1 on a chip so twice the PPE and SPE. I'm rather doubtful that game makers are going to want to split a game into all those threads and doubtful it'd be overly advantageous to do so. What the Cell2 for the PS4 will be interesting.


@Hammer,
Having both PS3 and 360 and using games I think it's fair to say these consoles are about even.

Sony advertised their console to be this massive 2TFlop gaming powerhouse. Sony has unequivocally failed at providing a game that proves this. This is the task that should be at the forefront of Sony's gaming agenda. Show the world where we can 'Play Beyond' with game X. After 2 years there is nothing there proving a clear PS3 superiority.

I'm assuming you know that the 'fused' CPU/GpGPU in the 360 is supposed to come this fall with Valhalla. I wonder if Microsoft will make a thin 360? MikeB seems to think a thin PS3 is the winning answer to all the PS3 issues. It's be cool to see Microsoft beat Sony again to the street.

Thanks for the post on the missing 360 features. I recall these. If they are real and can be turned on then I encourage Microsoft to do so. One concern I could see here is how will the more features be used and will they cause more RRoD issues.

Something Sony fanaticks seem to neglect is that as the Cell uses SPEs to enhance the RSX defeciencies this SPE is less likely, or not at all even, going to be involved in the game play itself. If an SPE is tied up rendering the game then that SPE is less likely going to have any role in the game engine. Effectively this reduces the power of the Cell devoted to the game engine itself. Balancing is always a give and take is it not?

@Lou
Quote:

Your PS3 is the Atari ST The 360 is the Amiga.

Both lost to the Mac (Wii). History repeats...

@BrianK

Quote:

If anti-aliasing is used doesn't the RSX end up with half the Xenos pixel per sec rate? Isn't this due to the superior setup relating to anti-aliasing within the Xenos?

No, not really. Not for PS3 optimised software, this due to the Cell's SPEs and tiling issues on the 360.

Quote:

Also isn't the RSX less efficent than the Xenos?

No, but the Xenos is more flexible than the RSX, yet the SPEs are far more flexible. The RSX is more powerful in the areas it needs to perform well compared tot the Xenos. The areas it relatively weak the SPE's are more powerful and flexible.

@MikeB

Quote:

The RSX is more powerful in the areas it needs to perform well compared tot the Xenos. The areas it relatively weak the SPE's are more powerful and flexible.

Thanks this best answers my question. The RSX is not superior to the Xenos in all aspects. In the aspects it falls behind it phones a friend, the Cell SPE, to assist.

@Hammer

Quote:

What effects are these?

In one of the latest dev interviews they stated that with other games developers at the end of development usually take out effects and such to get a good frame rate, but for them it was the other way around. They saw the enormous headroom they have and added more and more. And they stated given enough time they can develop many new additional systems on the SPEs for for example their future titles to go well beyond what Killzone 2 is offering today (review builds).

Judge for yourself:

http://i44.tinypic.com/1zdy721.jpg

There's a review embargo until the 2nd of February, but some magazines from small countries have already reviewed the game. Some translations:

576 KByte (Hungary)
Killzone 2 review

Graphics: 5 (out of 5)
Playability: 5 (out of 5)
Lasting Appeal: 4 (out of 5)
Music / sounds: 5 (out of 5)

Overall: 9.7 (out of 10)

"Killzone 2 is one of the most gorgeous and atmospheric FPS ever released, surprassing easily everything the PS3 has to offer. It's easily one of the best games of 2009. What will happen with the franchise in the future? We hope that it will be successful, reaching heights of happines never reached before and bringing a real conclusion to the unfinished saga. When and how it will happen? Only God knows - he likes to be called Guerilla Games nowdays"

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/6425/576kjanas7.jpg

GamePlay Magazine (Croatia)
Killzone 2 review

Graphics: 20
Sound: 19
Playability: 19
Longevity: 20
Overall: 20 out of 20

final score description (roughly translated):
When compared to all other console titles - while on PC Crysis remains only true competitor regarding graphics - Killzone 2 takes every of it's moment to justify it is the first true and pure Next-Gen title in every mean imaginable.

http://www.gameplay.hr/uploads/img4942a174b2dc5.jpg

Megagamers review (taken down due to breaking the embargo)

"Truth is, all my life I’ve been an ardent PC gamer that scoffed at inferior FPS experiences on the console. My colleagues always teased me for being a hardcore PC fanatic (fancy name for “fanboy”). It’s a given fact that PC gamers are much harder to please in terms of quality or gameplay and hence, console FPS ports are always a disappointment. Throughout the years, being an extremist that I am, console games like Halo 3 only managed a “hmmmm”, while few others like Resistance 2 and Gears of War 2 never went beyond the “meh” factor. After the recent buzz and hype behind Sony’s upcoming FPS, I decided to sit down and spend some quality time with the game and I cannot deny the truth… Killzone 2 has made me a believer!"

"At the end of the day, logic predicts that a game with an intense single-player campaign and a killer multiplayer element is a win-win situation in anyone's book. To be honest, Killzone 2’s secret ingredient is the fluidity in gameplay that we have come to enjoy more than its graphical prowess or jaw-dropping visuals. And that’s what games have always been about… We're surprised to see Killzone 2 blows our expectations out of the water with a memorable SP campaign and a stellar MP component. To put it short, this game makes Gears of War 2 look like a high school attempt at gaming and that is a HUGE compliment!"

Score: 9.9

Last edited by MikeB on 19-Jan-2009 at 06:35 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 19-Jan-2009 at 06:32 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

In one of the latest dev interviews they stated that with other games developers at the end of development usually take out effects and such to get a good frame rate, but for them it was the other way around

KZ2 undisputed winner even with 30-20fps frame rate drops

@MikeB

Such reviews doesn't affect me i.e. mostly subjective reviews and hype.
Better still, refer to
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=51783&page=3

Few notes
- Unlike STALKER, KZ2 doesn't store their L-Buffer as a floating point framebuffer.
- KZ2 does not use HDR.
- KZ2 also uses 2xQAA (Quincunx).

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@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @MikeB Quote: The RSX is more powerful than the Xenos If anti-aliasing is used doesn't the RSX end up with half the Xenos pixel per sec rate? Isn't this due to the superior setup relating to anti-aliasing within the Xenos? Also isn't the RSX less efficent than the Xenos? So comparing actual performance to theoretical paper #s are worse for the RSX. Also doesn't the RSX handle vertices worse than the Xenos? Isn't the recommendation for this to use the SPEs? While some theoretical #s might be better for the RSX in the real world it appears the Xenos is closer to this gen's video cards and the RSX is closer to something from 2004. Sony stated 1.8TFlops for the RSX comes with free Kool-Aid.

I do miss "Crazy Ken" (TM)....

Anyway, from NVIDIA on RSX.

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@BrianK

Quote:

Sony advertised their console to be this massive 2TFlop gaming powerhouse. Sony has unequivocally failed at providing a game that proves this. This is the task that should be at the forefront of Sony's gaming agenda. Show the world where we can 'Play Beyond' with game X. After 2 years there is nothing there proving a clear PS3 superiority.

If it was 2TFlops of programmable streaming performance it should be outputting games similar to Radeon HD 4870 X2 or Geforce GT295.

2TFlops RSX should be pumping multi-platform games that would kill a Geforce 8600M GT GDDR3.

Anyway, A list of XBox 360 and PS3 rendering resolutions

PS3 (games that I have PC editions, which I run on Geforce 8600M GT GDDR3)
Unreal Tournament III = 1280x720 (no AA)
Quake Wars: Enemy Territory = 1280x720 (no AA)
Race Driver: GRID = 1280x720 (2xAA)
Fallout 3 = 1280x720 (no AA)
Assassin's Creed = 1280x720 (QAA)
Devil May Cry 4 = 1280x720 (2xAA, temporal)
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion = 1280x720 (no AA)
Turning Point: Fall of Liberty = 1280x720 (no AA)


Quote:

Thanks for the post on the missing 360 features. I recall these. If they are real and can be turned on then I encourage Microsoft to do so. One concern I could see here is how will the more features be used and will they cause more RRoD issues

Alan Wake could be first optimised Xbox 360 title.

Last edited by Hammer on 20-Jan-2009 at 10:35 AM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

No, but the Xenos is more flexible than the RSX, yet the SPEs are far more flexible.

On workloads that matter, SPEs are less specialised compared to a GPU. How's SPE's OpenGL drivers? Does it have thousands of registers to keep track of data and instructions close to the ALUs?

The argument of having large register sets comes bitting back.

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@BrianK

Killzone 2 is now a rock solid 30 FPS, he was probably talking about the online beta.

@Hammer

You don't have to worry about Killzone 2's lighting system, it's probably the most advanced one implemented in a game so far. Hundreds of lights on screen at once and they use some raytracing as well. A quote from the devs:

"Deferred rendering works well and gives us artistic
freedom to create distinctive Killzone look
‣ MSAA did not prove to be an issue
‣ Complex geometry with no resubmit
‣ Highly dynamic lighting in environments"

@Hammer

Quote:

Alan Wake could be first optimised Xbox 360 title.

All first party 360 games are heavily optimised technically (including even Halo 3 with its technical sacrifices). Gears of War 2 is IMO as good as it's gonna get on the XBox 360.

Some Xenon usage examples for 360 launch titles:





For example Killzone 2 usually uses just 2 SPEs, but when things get hectic the game uses up to 60% of total SPE resources. There's still a lot of headroom for developers to tap into. A lot of the SPE power comes from the SPE mini-system memory, as fast as cache, but without cache-like limitations and its pretty big, of course combined with the Cell's huge internal and external bandwidth.

Of course Alan Wake has been under development for a long time, it was announced before Killzone 2 and will be releasing long after this title. But a long development time does not guarantee success, for example Too Human was under development twice as long and resulted in a big disappointment. Apart from a few PC screen shots we know very little about this game.

@BrianK

Quote:

I think the difficulty for games is going to be one in software. Let's say the PS4 can have 2 Cell1 on a chip so twice the PPE and SPE. I'm rather doubtful that game makers are going to want to split a game into all those threads and doubtful it'd be overly advantageous to do so. What the Cell2 for the PS4 will be interesting.

The specs I've seen for Cell++ so far are 3.8GHz, 4 (improved) PPEs 32SPEs more on chip "memory". They'll need to increase memory bandwidth by about 4.2x to keep it fed. Rambus were talking about 1TB a second memory a while back so 100GB sec looks possible, especially in a couple of years (The Nvidia GTX 295 is around 223GB / sec).

As for how to program Cell++, I think it's going to be a lot easier than you'd think. A very popular way of programming Cell is by using "jobs", you decompose the problem into small units and the SPEs read a list of them. When an SPE has finished one, it looks up the list and reads the next one. This works well because it's auto-load balancing and doesn't depend on the number of SPEs. It's quite possible some games will need very little changes to take advantage of a 32SPE Cell.

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@MikeB
Quote:

Gears of War 2 is IMO as good as it's gonna get on the XBox 360.

You fell into the fanboyism of thinking something along these same lines for Gears of War 1. IMO, you're likely closer to right on this guess. But, I'd gladly take the bet that we see Gears3 play beyond Gears2 which played beyond Gears1.

@minator
Interesting layout for the Cell++. If memory serves the Cell (1PPE and 8SPE) has 230M transitiors. If this is a quad Cell (4 PPE, 32SPE) wouldn't we expect this to have close to 1Billion transitors?


@Thread
Sony's President Hirai recently claimed the 360 lacks longevity. Sony claims they will win this generation by keeping the PS3 around longer than anyone else keeps the other consoles. Sony you are a business. You are here to make money. No one cares if the PS3 is around 10 years. If you make less money than the WII + WII2 then you are still behind. Period. Hirai trying this is silly. Ken's back! @Hammer got his way Ken's back!