@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @BrianK Quote: I think the difficulty for games is going to be one in software. Let's say the PS4 can have 2 Cell1 on a chip so twice the PPE and SPE. I'm rather doubtful that game makers are going to want to split a game into all those threads and doubtful it'd be overly advantageous to do so. What the Cell2 for the PS4 will be interesting. The specs I've seen for Cell++ so far are 3.8GHz, 4 (improved) PPEs 32SPEs more on chip "memory". They'll need to increase memory bandwidth by about 4.2x to keep it fed. Rambus were talking about 1TB a second memory a while back so 100GB sec looks possible, especially in a couple of years (The Nvidia GTX 295 is around 223GB / sec). As for how to program Cell++, I think it's going to be a lot easier than you'd think. A very popular way of programming Cell is by using "jobs", you decompose the problem into small units and the SPEs read a list of them. When an SPE has finished one, it looks up the list and reads the next one. This works well because it's auto-load balancing and doesn't depend on the number of SPEs. It's quite possible some games will need very little changes to take advantage of a 32SPE Cell.

Sounds interesting on the specs.

What you described for handling tasks is exactly how cluster tasks are distributed (not nesc aimed at you, but anyone)...which, you'll recall was one of the original 'dreams' of Cell- add another over network, and instant 'cluster expansion.'

I expect to see SPUs reserved/dedicated for certain tasks, but then perhaps the rest can be scheduled just as you've said?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@BrianK

Quote:

@Thread Sony's President Hirai recently claimed the 360 lacks longevity. Sony claims they will win this generation by keeping the PS3 around longer than anyone else keeps the other consoles. Sony you are a business. You are here to make money. No one cares if the PS3 is around 10 years. If you make less money than the WII + WII2 then you are still behind. Period. Hirai trying this is silly. Ken's back! @Hammer got his

Argh. I hope that's a ploy to make the world believe it. If Sony believes it, game over in next gen for Sony. :-/ (Unless they release PS4 within 1 year of next gen XBox, anyways...they *could* do both, but...unlikely if the above is 'real' )

Last edited by wegster on 21-Jan-2009 at 03:47 AM.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

Argh. I hope that's a ploy to make the world believe it. If Sony believes it, game over in next gen for Sony. :-/ (Unless they release PS4 within 1 year of next gen XBox, anyways...they *could* do both, but...unlikely if the above is 'real' )

Here's the quote
"And with the Xbox - again, I can't come up with one word to fit. You need a word that describes something that lacks longevity. Last time I checked, they've never had a console that's been on the market for more than four or five years and we've committed to a ten year life cycle, so you do the math....and unless things go really bad, there's no way that at the end of a life cycle our competition is going to have a higher install base"

Kaz is talking about a 'ten year life cycle' and how at the end of this life cycle (eg 10 years) no competition is going to have a higher install base.

I agree with you if Sony does not produce a PS4 closely to the 3rd Xbox then Sony gaming is as doomed as doomed can be.

@BrianK
Thanks for the quote. Here I keep thinking/hoping Sony will eventually *learn* from it's mistakes and arrogance, but apparently not.

Let's see here, what would make the PS3 of any real interest after XBox 720, and potentially next gen Wii come out:
controls? 6 Axis = bad joke. I hate 90% of the uses they force you into with it, and I expect it will 'evolve' to clone the WiiMote (or they'll offer another $50+ controller cloning it), but not this gen.

graphics? As much as I disagree with MikeB from his sheer fanboy-ism and conversation style, I do have faith we haven't seen the best out of the PS3 yet, including KZ2. But..time moves on, especially in tech, and today's 'can roughly match mid-range PC gfx cards' will lose out to next gen XBox GPU, SPEs aiding RSX or not. And the XBox will continue to have better dev support, for immediate graphical gains over this gen (both 360 and PS3) from day one, more than likely. Even if Wii remains 'budget' by comparison, in 2010 or so, it'll be easy enough for them to also match or surpass PS3 easily on the cheap. Sony: loser

games? Sony's bleeding their 3rd party exclusives this gen already. While there are some first party exclusives I like, 3rd party is nearly gone, and will be even worse if they try for the '10 year plan' while the 720 and err...Wii Wii come out. Again, loss to Sony.

As much as I would truly *hate* buying a MS product, if Sony sticks with the above, I guess I'll enjoy my PS3 until next gen Wii and 360 are out, then relegate it to secondary position and purchase one of the others. And then see how the PS4 fares against the XBox 1440...and see if Sony has *finally* learned any lessons along the way :-/

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@BrianK

Quote:

You fell into the fanboyism of thinking something along these same lines for Gears of War 1

Jesus BrainK, how do you manage to mix up so much?

It was Epic who made that claim, not me! I even stated that I doubted what they said was true (maxing out the 360)! How do you manage to mix this up with the exact opposite? It seems to be happening with you all the time.... It's hard to make a conversation if you continue like this...

What I did state, was that I thought before Halo 3 was released this game would push the 360 to its limits (considering budget, exclusivity and long development time), but when the title was released I immediately acknowledged I was mistaken. And BTW Gears of War 2 isn't that much more impressive than the Gears 1.

Last edited by MikeB on 21-Jan-2009 at 10:33 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 21-Jan-2009 at 09:56 AM.

@wegster

Quote:

As much as I disagree with MikeB from his sheer fanboy-ism and conversation style

What's wrong with providing sources and data to back up one's view? I think that's the main distinction with some other posters...

I think you may still be upset about differences in the past between us.

Last edited by MikeB on 21-Jan-2009 at 09:03 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

All first party 360 games are heavily optimised technically (including even Halo 3 with its technical sacrifices).

Xenos has it's own issues i.e. low and high HDR.

Quote:

Gears of War 2 is IMO as good as it's gonna get on the XBox 360.

Refer to Fables 2 counter example i.e. scale and forest scene. Does Unreal Engine 3 uses the tessellation unit?

We know Unreal Engine 3 runs on D3D 9c arch which is not designed MEMPORT in mind.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 10:01 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

You don't have to worry about Killzone 2's lighting system, it's probably the most advanced one implemented in a game so far. Hundreds of lights on screen at once and they use some raytracing as well.

Not 100% true ray-tracing. "Ray-tracing" can be used in many kinds of ways e.g. Crysis's parallax occlusion mapping is one form of ray-tracing done via a pixel shader.

There's an example of a real time raytracing from http://igad.nhtv.nl/~bikker/
It's Arauna real time raytraing demo. Latest build is 09 Sep 2008.

Quote:

Deferred rendering works well and gives us artistic freedom to create distinctive Killzone look

Not much here.

Quote:

MSAA did not prove to be an issue

The devs are mindful of RSX's MSAA issues, hence they didn’t go overboard with it.

Quote:

Highly dynamic lighting in environments

Narrow corridor shooter.

What about KZ2's post processing with only 8-bit precision and 2x LDR range?

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 10:27 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

Narrow corridor shooter.

The areas of the game with the most impressive lighting are the areas in the game with large scale environments:

http://www.gamekings.tv/index/videos/minidocu-killzone-2-special-part-2/

@Hammer

Quote:

Not 100% true ray-tracing.

They are doing some real realtime raytracing in this game (just like parts of GT5). Future games will probably use raytracing more extensively.

@MikeB

Quote:

The areas of the game with the most impressive lighting are the areas in the game with large scale environments:

Where's the island?

Quote:

They are doing some real realtime raytracing in this game (just like parts of GT5). Future games will probably use raytracing more extensively.

Raytracing can be done on Amiga500 i.e. MC68000 @7.1xMhz. Raytracing is not a magic word.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 10:49 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 10:47 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 10:46 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 10:38 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

Raytracing can be done on Amiga500 i.e. MC68000 @7.1xMhz. Raytracing is not a magic word.

What Amiga 500 game uses real-time ray tracing?

I think Stardust would be the best example, but that's not real-time, the raytraced graphics are pre-generated. Eventually many 3D games will be using real-time raytracing, that's the long term goal and something a PS4 with an even more powerful Cell processor may well be excellently suited for, maybe we will see this in Killzone 4.

@wegster

Quote:

graphics? As much as I disagree with MikeB from his sheer fanboy-ism and conversation style, I do have faith we haven't seen the best out of the PS3 yet, including KZ2. But..time moves on, especially in tech, and today's 'can roughly match mid-range PC gfx cards' will lose out to next gen XBox GPU, SPEs aiding RSX or not

SPEs+RSX vs sub $100 USD Radeon HD 46x0 (320 SPs just like old Radeon HD 38x0, Crysis 1.21 720p at max) or ~150USD Radeon HD 4850? Are you kidding?

Refer to http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38145/135/
Radeon HD 2900 and up can do real time raytrace just fine i.e. Transformers movie trailers. Something useful for the wasted Tessellation unit.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 11:30 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 11:14 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

What Amiga 500 game uses real-time ray tracing?

Raytracing can be done on MC68000 i.e. it's a rendering method.

Quote:

Eventually many 3D games will be using real-time raytracing

One should define this "raytracing" label e.g. volume lights.

Quote:

that's the long term goal and something a PS4 with an even more powerful Cell processor may well be excellently suited for, maybe we will see this in Killzone 4.

Or Crysis 2 or whatever.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: You fell into the fanboyism of thinking something along these same lines for Gears of War 1 Jesus BrainK, how do you manage to mix up so much? It was Epic who made that claim, not me! I even stated that I doubted what they said was true (maxing out the 360)! How do you manage to mix this up with the exact opposite? It seems to be happening with you all the time.... It's hard to make a conversation if you continue like this... What I did state, was that I thought before Halo 3 was released this game would push the 360 to its limits (considering budget, exclusivity and long development time), but when the title was released I immediately acknowledged I was mistaken. And BTW Gears of War 2 isn't that much more impressive than the Gears 1.

Unreal Engine 3 with forest scene.

There's a problem with GoW2's art direction.

Last edited by Hammer on 21-Jan-2009 at 11:27 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

There's a problem with GoW2's art direction.

There are far more problems with Gears 2, art direction can always be "improved" and depends highly on personal opinions.

@MikeB

Quote:

It was Epic who made that claim, not me! I even stated that I doubted what they said was true (maxing out the 360)! How do you manage to mix this up with the exact opposite?

MikeB is right here. While MikeB did introduce the Epic quote to this discussion (in the original thread two years ago), he did keep it as a quote - adding disclaimers like "if Epic is right" to his comments. Eventually, later in the thread, he did say he doubted Epic were right.

Although at the time MikeB and BrianK did debate the issue surrounding the Epic quote, reading carefully MikeB never actually claimed it as his own opinion in all fairness.

Now, GoW 2 is different - now MikeB has made a personal claim so let's see how it turns out. Somehow I doubt it will be anymore true this time than when Epic made such a statement on GoW 1, but who knows!

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @wegster Quote: As much as I disagree with MikeB from his sheer fanboy-ism and conversation style What's wrong with providing sources and data to back up one's view? I think that's the main distinction with some other posters... I think you may still be upset about differences in the past between us.

:

Mike, giving links and sources in a discussion is fine. Side-stepping counter-arguments, and general fanboyism..not so much. We've already all discussed your 'style' for lack of a better word, and many of us notice it. You can continue down your line of thought here and believe what you want.

I've thanked you on occasion for supplying some links or info myself, but that doesn't mean I agree with the way, or the opinions you treat as 'facts' that you claim so often.

There's just not much point in continuing this part of the conversation. Again, the fact that so few 'agree' with you, or your 'style,' would point at yourself, rather than others, but it's really irrelevant.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @wegster Quote: graphics? As much as I disagree with MikeB from his sheer fanboy-ism and conversation style, I do have faith we haven't seen the best out of the PS3 yet, including KZ2. But..time moves on, especially in tech, and today's 'can roughly match mid-range PC gfx cards' will lose out to next gen XBox GPU, SPEs aiding RSX or not SPEs+RSX vs sub $100 USD Radeon HD 46x0 (320 SPs just like old Radeon HD 38x0, Crysis 1.21 720p at max) or ~150USD Radeon HD 4850? Are you kidding? Refer to http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/38145/135/ Radeon HD 2900 and up can do real time raytrace just fine i.e. Transformers movie trailers. Something useful for the wasted Tessellation unit.

Thanks for the link, good read. I was being a bit 'optimistic' when saying 'roughly match todays mid range cards,' mostly to not derail into another 'oh, RSX is special and is better than modern PC gfx cards' debate.

Even so, your link is as a result of highly optimized and specialized code, which level of optimization hasn't been reached on either the 360 or PS3 (or for that matter, the Wii). The point being is that visuals will still continue to improve on the consoles for some amount of time yet.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@wegster

Quote:

I've thanked you on occasion for supplying some links or info myself, but that doesn't mean I agree with the way, or the opinions you treat as 'facts' that you claim so often.

Actually I think I am one of the people on AmigaWorld.net who uses the most "IMO", "I believe", "I think" the most in here to distinguish between facts and opinion.

And yes, it has been discussed before. And I asked before not to derail discussions like that. I dislike your posting style as well, on the one hand trying to portray yourself as objective, unbiased, calm, non-fanboy, etc and on the other hand outing pointless off-topic cheapshots at me left and right.