@MikeB

PS3 sales to be driven by Blu-Ray..Blu-Ray high costs keep PS3 sales high.
"The studios better hope that people are playing movies on their Playstations. Otherwise there’s very little installed base. In 2008 about 85% of the Blu-ray players in the market will be found in PS3s; the dedicated consumer electronics and PC-based types of Blu-ray players won’t catch up in terms of market share until about 2013"

@BrianK

Blu-Ray adoption is happening faster than DVD adoption did. Just because not every PS3 owner owns a HDTV yet or may be mainly interested in playing games does not change this fact. An interesting read:

"Blu-ray Disc software sales have seen a sharp spike in recent weeks, since the bruising format war against rival HD DVD came to an end in the middle of February.

Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment’s No Country for Old Men realized 9.8% of its total sales from Blu-ray Disc its first five days in stores, according to an analysis of Nielsen VideoScan First Alert numbers conducted by Home Media Magazine’s market research department.

Hitman (view trailer), a 20th Century Fox Home Entertainment title also released March 11, fared even better, generating 12.6% of its total unit sales from Blu-ray Disc.

“That one hit the sweet spot,” said Steve Feldstein, SVP of marketing and corporate communications for Fox. “It’s a great action title that looks beautiful in high-def — and it's right in the crosshairs of Blu-ray’s target demographic of young adult males.”

By comparison, while the format war was raging, unit sales of high-definition discs, either Blu-ray or HD DVD, generally accounted for no more than 2% or 3% of a title’s total sales."

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?sec_id=2&&article_ID=12401

Blu-Ray penetration will only go up from here, just like HDTV penetration.

http://www.joystiq.com/2008/04/24/nintendo-continues-cash-infusion-record-sales-and-profits-in-fy/

Amidst record sales it seems the Wii's global softare tie ratio is over 6...

Who knew?

@BrianK

Some people also claimed PS3 owners are buying significantly less games than 360 owners due to doubling as the best Blu-Ray movie player on the market. Of course the super high attach rates claimed by Microsoft is caused by the 1 year (or more for most of the world headstart.

Per year it's:

"According to Wedbush Morgan analyst Michael Pachter, the average Wii owner buys 3.7 games per year.

This comares to 4.7 games per year for Xbox 360 owners and 4.6 games per year for PS3 owners."

That's pretty close. And that's with nearly all best selling XBox sequels already on the 360 (only Star Wars, GTA and Fable remaining).

GTA will probably have a better attach rate on the PS3. For the US the 360 has about a 2.5 to 1 ratio install base advantage, yet reports indicate 40% vs 60% preorders to the advantage of the 360. That's a 1.5 to 1 ratio.

For Australia:

"Recent figures from Sony showed that over 155,000 PS3s were sold in Australia last year, but Ephraim pointed out that the 28,000 units given away in the Bravia deal are not part of this figure, because industry data tracker GfK Australia “doesn’t report on a console if it’s given away free”."

Anyway for Australia the PS3 version seems to be outselling the 360 version:

"A spokeswoman for EB Games Australia--the largest specialty games retailer in the country--told GameSpot AU that the PS3 version of GTA IV was just ahead of the 360 in terms of presales. "We are happy to tell you it's neck and neck, but at the moment, PlayStation 3 is currently in the lead," EB Games Australia brand and public relations manager Debra McGrath said."


"The PS3 version was even farther ahead with retailer Gametraders. The company's national marketing manager Chad Polley said "according to the figures we have at the moment, we're [pre-]selling two PS3 versions for every one 360 unit."

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6189713.html

Both for the UK and Australia the 360 still has a bigger install base due to the 1 year and 5 months headstart. These early reports are encouraging for global PS3 version sales, for all the other major European markets and some smaller markets the PS3 install base is already bigger than the 360 install base. For Japan San Andreas performed pretty well for this sort of game, beating Japanese orientated games like Monster Hunter 1 and Yakuza 1. When a PS3 version hits there it will probably add some more sales (the 360 is of no significance there).

For the UK:

The PS3 hit 1 million in February/March in less than a year for the UK.

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/29603/PS3-hits-1m-in-UK
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/29792/Sony-hails-retail-as-PS3-hits-1m

The 360 hit 2 million in sales this month for the UK after the recent price cut, so this after more than 2 years and 4 months of sales (3 christmas seasons).

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/xbox-360-to-hit-2m-in-uk--next-week-

Easter bump after 360 price cut, PS3 still outsold it for the UK.
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/30024/360-and-PS3-rocket-during-bumper-Easter

"Leading UK supermarket Asda has disclosed surprising figures pertaining to the forthcoming Grand Theft Auto IV, revealing that the PlayStation 3 version is outselling the Xbox 360 version to the tune of three to one.

Speaking to trade paper MCV, Asda's head of games Duncan Cross said, "Both titles have generated great interest on the Asda website, with strong pre-orders, and the PS3 version is selling three times that of 360, which is surprising and not in line with what we'd expect."

While it's no news that the game is going to sell – with recent reports suggesting it could make $400 million in its first week alone – it'll come as a surprise that the PlayStation 3 is trumping the Xbox 360 to such an extent. Debbie O'Neill of UK electronic retailer Comet stated that "We have great expectations and believe it is going to be a massive hardware driver – especially on PS3."

. So attach ratios will probably be higher for the PS3 and I personally think will push far more hardware, I expect MGS4 to push a lot of PS3 hardware as well which I expect will push further PS3 GTA IV sales as well.

Christmas sales should also be relevant and interesting as install bases increase more rapidly.

@MikeB

An interesting comment from PlanetGTA:

"Interesting indeed, I myself - who is a big fan of the Xbox 360 - will be getting the PlayStation 3 version, as I've read and heard personally from people who have played the game already that this version is undoubtedly superior to the Xbox 360. Granted, not as much that I would recommend going out to buy a PS3 console if you have a 360 already. Too bad that episodic content is Xbox exclusive, is Take-Two/Rockstar regretting that decision now?"

I read reports of better graphics (more realistic and less aliasing issues on the PS3), slightly better framerate on the PS3 and more activity (headcounts and carcounts in scenes). We have seen many comparison reviews before, I'm sure this title will spark some in depth comparisons.

Anyway if so, not bad for a title which started development on the 360 and was then moved to the PS3.

Other often mentioned reasons stated by users for getting the PS3 version instead of the 360 version:

1) RRoD problems (360)
2) Free online multi-player (PS3)
3) Playstation style controller
4) 360 noise generation
5) Free Home integration (PS3)
6) Disc scratching (360)
7) XBox Live issues
8) DVD too small for GTA V (sequel)
9) More people will own PS3s than 360s (online play)
10) Popular sequels to exclusive games, MGS4, Gran Tursismo 5 and Final Fantasy XIII are most mentioned.

@MikeB

This thread smells bad of propaganda..

It becomes less and less interesting to read I'm sorry to say. This is NOT only
your fault.. But you're a big part of it.

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@BrianK

Quote:

"The studios better hope that people are playing movies on their Playstations. Otherwise there’s very little installed base. In 2008 about 85% of the Blu-ray players in the market will be found in PS3s; the dedicated consumer electronics and PC-based types of Blu-ray players won’t catch up in terms of market share until about 2013"

I have no worries about PS3 owners not using the machine for movies.. Actually
a majority do I think.
My worries are the still huge price for blustuff (discs, burners, players etc.).
Especially for computers.

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@Samwel

Quote:

I have no worries about PS3 owners not using the machine for movies.. Actually a majority do I think. My worries are the still huge price for blustuff (discs, burners, players etc.). Especially for computers.

Sony likes high prices for Blu-Stuff. This keeps the PS3 the attractive option. I always found it amusing people were worried about Microsoft licensing. But, IMO Sony has their fingers even deeper.

@MikeB
Blu-Ray is a selling point for the PS3. Being the 360 has acheived what Microsoft was looking for they may forgo it. But, I think to remain competitive they'll have to do something around Blu-Ray. Afterall the PS3 is likely to remain the lower/lowest cost Blu-Ray option for a while.


@Thread
Recent Micrsoft financals...
"...Entertainment and Devices revenue for the quarter grew 68% over the comparable period last year driven by robust demand for Xbox 360 consoles. Cumulative console sales surpassed 19 million during the quarter, up 74% from a year ago...
... (EDD) operating profit of $89 million for the third fiscal quarter, and an operating income of $614 million for the nine-month period (a marked improvement from the $746 million loss during the same period last year...
"

Nintendo is rocking..
"Annual sales have increased by 73% to 1.67 trillion yen ($16.1 billion), with profits up by 115.6% to 487 billion yen ($4.69 billion). Net income for the year rose to 257.3 billion yen ($2.49 billion), compared with 174.3 billion yen a year earlier. "

NPD USA Ties per console.
Xbox 360: software sales ratio: 7.5
Wii: software sales ratio: 5.3
DS: software sales ration:4.7
PS3: software sales ratio: 4.6
PSP: software sales ration: 4.2
Also note NPD counts store purchases not online purchases. Certainly the Xbox leads in online game sales for the consoles.

Ninja Gaiden II -- June 6th! YEAH!

Last edited by BrianK on 25-Apr-2008 at 06:22 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Blu-Ray adoption is happening faster than DVD adoption did. Just because not every PS3 owner owns a HDTV yet or may be mainly interested in playing games does not change this fact.

Yep, and somewhat surprisingly, the lame pricing on standalone players now has me very likely to get a second PS3 for primary use as a BD player for the bedroom...

Is Sony at break-even or profit per console yet?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@MikeB

Quote:

The Teraflop announcement by NVidea should be viewed as a counter to the Teraflop announcement made by Microsoft regarding the 360, this using equal measures

It's same as "80 GFLOPs" marketing from NVIDIA's NV2A in XBOX1 i.e. it’s useless in programmable stream computing context.

Quote:

The RSX can produce produce more shader ops per cycle than the Xenos (96 vs 136)

Again,
1. Since RSX is being based on G7x family, it has issues with concurrent pixel shader and texture operations. By default, RSX's effective shader ops goes down.
2. Some of shader operations is done by Xenos's secondary/support GPU.

Note why in UT3 and Assassins Creed the PS3 wasn’t able to beat NVIDIA's Geforce 8600 GT GDDR3. The RSX/G71 is not G80 class GPU.

Quote:

and the Cell is much more powerful than the Xenon.

I wonder why Cell was needed to "fix" RSX’s architectural issues. Perhaps, G71 is !@#$ GPU compared ATI's Radeon X1900.

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Apr-2008 at 08:12 AM.

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@Lou

Quote:

No original Xbox game looked as good as SW:RG3-Rebel Strike did on the Gamecube.

Refer to FarCry for XBOX1.

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@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Maybe his vision will be realized with MGS5 or MGS6, he was probably unrealistic with regard to what could be achieved in MGS4's development timeframe. A bit like if Insomniac would have envisioned Resistance 1 to be like what will be achieved with Resistance 2. He made similar statements with regard to the development of prior PS2 MGS games. MGS4 GamePro preview: The graphics: You thought Gears of War looked amazing? Think again. Metal Gear Solid 4 will blow you away with its ultra-detailed characters and intricate environments, painting some of the most gorgeous graphics seen this side of Crysis. In motion, the graphics look so realistic that your eyes begin to register the visuals as a movie rather than a game. From what we saw, MGS4 puts its 50GB Blu-ray disc to outstanding use. The guns: The final game will feature over 70 weapons, from lethal assault rifles to silent tranquilizer guns, and you can outfit many of them with scopes, recoil grips, laser sights, flashlights, and more. Collecting enemy weapons will unlock new guns and "Drebin Points" for further customization. There are 70+ guns in all. The sound: MGS4 has some of the crispest, clearest sound effects we've ever heard -- the booming gunshots will make your hair stand on end! The Hollywood-style soundtrack is also predictably fantastic, and Snake's raspy voice sounds more desiccated than ever. GamePro editor Sid Shuman went so far as to say that MGS4 has "the best sound I've ever heard in a game." The story: MGS4 is the darkest Metal Gear game by far: Snake is in terrible physical shape, and the world seems to rest on the brink of self-inflicted annihilation. Though the mood is dark, it's not depressing: you'll find plenty of characters to care about in this war-torn world. http://www.gamepro.com/sony/ps3/games/previews/173848.shtml Sounds promising though.

It's no where near Crysis PC (running on RV670 GPU).

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@Zardoz

Quote:

Zardoz wrote: @Hammer Hm, cool but it looks like yesteryear's technology. Might make good games though.

Well, it’s interesting on a lite GPU.

**Not factoring PC mobility GPUs from ATI and NV.

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@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: The second part of the Q&A with Mike Acton is now available (he states many similar things I've been stating many times here at AmigaWorld in the past): Q&A: Insomniac's Mike Acton - Part 1 Q&A: Insomniac's Mike Acton - Part 2 "What I've always said is that bad code, and bad data design in particular, is bad on any architecture, but it's particularly bad on the PS3 because the Cell is a much more modern, much more heterogeneous design. It's much more parallel, and so requires good data design and good code. So if you're poorly designing your data and your code, then yeah, I can see why it'd be difficult to take something like that and try and manipulate it to work on the PS3, especially when people have invested a huge amount of money and time on something that basically doesn't fit a modern methodology. Yeah, it's going to be time-consuming to get that to work - if it's at all possible." "It's interesting, because I think that probably the oldest programming methods are the most relevant today. It's the habits over the last five or eight years that are struggling, and it's interestingly the people that are more recently out of school that are going to have the most trouble, because the education system really hasn't caught up to how the real world is, how hardware is changing and how development is changing." Some Resistance 2 related comment from another interview: "For example, the physics, animation, glass, inverse kinetics, effects, and geometry database systems (just to start with) are now less complicated, thus offering more and significantly faster features than the versions found in Resistance 1. We've also solidified some design patterns that are simplifying things. Take SPU Shaders, for example, which we discuss in detail on our newly established R&D site. SPU Shaders helped to make the big systems and all the little changes that come along during development a lot more practical to implement. They've also helped shed some light on programming the SPUs. Just having the ability to start putting high-level logic and AI on the SPUs was a major milestone that validated a lot of our ideas on how to distribute that type of work." link

Again, refer to Sony's white paper on SPU shader operations for numbers http://research.scea.com/ps3_deferred_shading.pdf
5 SPUs = 20 pixel shader G70 (GeForce 7800).

This techniques can “fix” RSX/G7x’s concurrent pixel and texture operation issues i.e. use 5 SPUs as a secondary/support GPU.
ATI GpGPUs doesn’t have G7x’s concurrent pixel and texture operation issues.

UT3 also uses defered shading btw.

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Apr-2008 at 08:12 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Apr-2008 at 08:11 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Apr-2008 at 08:06 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 25-Apr-2008 at 08:04 AM.

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@ Samwell

Please specify what point you think is propaganda. I think my messages have been most informative, I can back up the posts above with creditable sources.


@wegster

The PS3 isn't at the break even point yet, production costs have nearly halved but Sony is still making a loss on the hardware unless users buy some Blu-Ray movies, games or a Sony HDTV to compensate for this loss.

Sony may break even soon though and have room for a pricecut, smaller, thinner and cheaper Cell, RSX, Blu-Ray drive and heatsinks have been reported. They are well underway towards a slimline PS3.

@Hammer

Don't confuse the SPU shader *model* with just shader ops. It's a design approach similar to how GPUs are handling things, it's not limited to the kinds of operations GPU are good at. On the Cell you can use the SPU shader model approach for many different things besides just GPU shader ops.

Last edited by MikeB on 25-Apr-2008 at 09:00 AM.

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: @MikeB Quote: Blu-Ray adoption is happening faster than DVD adoption did. Just because not every PS3 owner owns a HDTV yet or may be mainly interested in playing games does not change this fact. Yep, and somewhat surprisingly, the lame pricing on standalone players now has me very likely to get a second PS3 for primary use as a BD player for the bedroom... Is Sony at break-even or profit per console yet?

Supposedly in August they will start making money on them and they'll be lighter too:
http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10172&Itemid=2

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou Quote: No original Xbox game looked as good as SW:RG3-Rebel Strike did on the Gamecube. Refer to FarCry for XBOX1.

Please don't confuse the console version with the PC version. Alot of people do. They could almost be considered 2 different games. Interestingly Ubisoft did a Wii port that looked like a PS2 game...but hey, it's Ubisoft, what was to be expected...

Looking here:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/f/farcryinstincts/default.htm
The game does look good, but you know it's a video game and I don't see much done with lighting. In SW:RS3:RS, the entire game looks like a movie. That's the difference. I would also like to note that FC:I is simply a FPS game, where as SW:RS3:RS has flying missions as well as variouse 3rd person ground missions where you control a human and/or various "vehicles" as well as "racing" type missions on a hover-cycle. I'm sure if Factor 5 simply concentrated on 1 genre, they would have exceeded even that.

Last edited by Lou on 25-Apr-2008 at 12:04 PM.

Dan Borth, CEO and founder of Red Fly Studio, explains how his company wants to maximize the graphical output of the Wii and gives some interesting details about the production costs of a Wii title compared to its HD competitors, claiming the development of a Wii game costs 25% or even less than a PS3/360 title. link

Wow! I figured the Wii was lower cost but not that much lower. If true the Wii is a highly attractive platform for developers -- most sold console, medium level attach rate, slightly less expensive games, slightly more profits for developers, lowest cost of console entry for consumers -- why would a developer not want to make a couple of games for the Wii. Sure they aren't going to be blow out AI or Graphics compared to the 360/PS3 but increasing the bank has a value for companies too.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: Dan Borth, CEO and founder of Red Fly Studio, explains how his company wants to maximize the graphical output of the Wii and gives some interesting details about the production costs of a Wii title compared to its HD competitors, claiming the development of a Wii game costs 25% or even less than a PS3/360 title. link Wow! I figured the Wii was lower cost but not that much lower. If true the Wii is a highly attractive platform for developers -- most sold console, medium level attach rate, slightly less expensive games, slightly more profits for developers, lowest cost of console entry for consumers -- why would a developer not want to make a couple of games for the Wii. Sure they aren't going to be blow out AI or Graphics compared to the 360/PS3 but increasing the bank has a value for companies too.

Prior to the GC, textures had to be resent through the pipeline when more than one texture operation was going to be applied, not so with the TEV unit which can apply 8 in one pass. Sadly most developers still waste their time resending textures because they are just porting engines rather than optimizing for the TEV. That's why you have a huge disparity in Wii/GC graphics between the top tiers and everyone else... Also, the GC/Wii have fix-function shading operations vs. programmable ones. The fix-function need to be combined to make similar results to programmable ones but this is where laziness comes in and the mantra "limited by lack of programmable shaders" on the platform is heard... It should be "limited by laziness"...

Simply look at Resident Evil 4 and Star Wars:RS3 - Rebel Strike to see what can be done when actual effort is put in.

Interestingly, the 360's gpu has internal texture memory like the GC/Wii's (both made by ATI) and can do similar things like this as well.

As far as money, the Wii Developer's kit is $2,000.00. When you don't have to shoot for 1080p, your artwork can look good without as much attention to detail. Those 2 factors = huge savings.