@jiyong

Quote:

jiyong wrote: @Lou If you classify complaining about your statement is crying and whining, I think you need to grow up. One of the reasons I have started a more "aggressive" way of posting, is that I feel there is a lot of hypocrisy here. Just look at how MikeB is treated here. I see hardly any complaints about that. Now when I give people a similar treatment, it's classified as offending?

All you have to do is read the moderators replies to MikeB to see where that comes from. However, he never gets so blatantly rude like you do right off the bat. So look in a mirror and tell yourself to grow up.

@Samwel

Quote:

Brian, in all fairness if you read back this whole thread (and its predesessors) you'll notice that most negative stuff is about PS3, with Mike defending it almost alone.

Okay but in all fairness I am responsible for my actions not the thread. Previously I said that I use the PS3 about 20% of the time and the 360 about 80% of the time. I've posted negatives and positives about both. While neither of us is going to do an offical survey of my posts I'd suspect they are close to that ratio.

Quote:

As I have never owned a console before and have not even used one other than my brothers PS2 and quick test of a friends 360 I do not feel I have enough info to bash any console.

I'd agree that if someone isn't using both systems it's a bit unfair to critique the systems themselves. I think you'll find me acting in a similiar way in so far as I don't have a Wii and use one less then 1% of the time and my posts reflect a similiar ratio. On the other hand we are all consumers and in the marketplace we've see things such as Sony using racial ads to promote the PS3 and Microsoft's inital lack of admittance of hardware failures. These would be fair for any of us to criticize.

Quote:

I defend PS3 somewhat when I feel the negativity is becoming rediculous.

I agree that within these threads negativity of both 360 and PS3 have become ridiculous at different points.

coming into this argument, so far i have not seen or heard of any game on PS3 that looks better than whats on xbox360, in fact, reading game comparisons with different platforms on gaming websites, the PS3 is behind the xbox360, you could blame the games, but thats irrelevent to me, its the end product that counts...I dont own a console now, I got a dual core PC with 8800GTS although there was a time when i had console's aswell as PC's/Amigas...

isnt blu-ray more draconian than hd-dvd aswell? www.theregister.co.uk favour hd-dvd for that reason...

IMHO you'd have to favour the Wii for christmas, coming in much cheaper, and looking real fun... more people will buy it as a gift surely?

_________________
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@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @jiyong Quote: [quote]it looks like you no longer care to check things Note we were discussing 1 thing, shipped or sold.

Tsk, tsk, Brian, now you already have problems counting beyond 1? There were two things. Start or end of March and shipped vs. sold.

Quote:

The use of the plural makes the statement apply to more then the 1 thing and therefore again reads as a blanket statement as it leaves what thingS open to question of the reader.

Well, if you want me to apologise that it looked like a blanket statement, well, I will.
But why flog this dead horse? Didn't I explain the context in my last post? What was that about moving on? And leaving out my explanation about the context is getting very close to misquoting Brian!

Quote:

I do disagree with your assessment. A few different sites I read had this news item that that covered this as sold not as shipped.

Again Brian, I would say it's common knowledge that when a manufacturer talks "sold" that most of the time they will mean "shipped". And I would say it shows in the interview. In the end what only counts for the financial statement is how many boxes they could push out of their factories to the "retailers". I hadn't seen the Tretton interview but all the other sites I saw were not as explicit.

Quote:

You are very confident in your statement that it's 11 million shipped, not sold, I'm sure you'll have major news sources to share that you did your due diligence.

Just a simple search: http://www.google.nl/search?q=ps3+11+million+shipped&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Sometimes you have to link through to the actual article, but yes, I did my due diligence. But that doesn't mean I can't be wrong.

Quote:

Quote: What has NTSC and PAL got to do with this? They are but one of many examples that the AV marketplace is able to sustain multiple formats. My statement is that I believe the AV marketplace is big enough to sustain multiple formats.

Well, I have never seen people use this to prove that the marketplace is big enough for two standards. The old video wars (VHS, Beta, V2000) showed us differently. On the other hand, NTSC and PAL were there too. So it looks like NTSC and PAL has got nothing to do with this discussion.

I think the market will no longer care as soon as the hybrid players become popular. But if that doesn't happen, Blu looks in the better position for the moment and the "market" prefers a single standard (as in medium, not in broadcast technology).

Quote:

Quote: "they" resort to the HD versus current DVD sales Not sure if it was HD DVD pushed in this case. I'd have to search out the source. However last fall, when HD was beating BR, that HiDef sales were under 1% of the market. So, it has been used before in discussions where Blu-Ray wasn't winning.

You mean to tell me that the Blu camp has used this argument before? Could be, but I haven't seen it.

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Interestingly I came across that HD DVD in Japan has about 1/3 the titles that exist in the USA. Blu-Ray titles appear to significantly out number HD DVD titles in Japan. This along with the PS3 would make one expect Blu-Ray to do better in Japan.

It's not just your expectation, it's reality. I think MikeB wouldn't mind repeating the numbers for you.

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Quote: But seriously, who knows what an overfilled pipeline is? As Hirai and Trenton both said 11M sold, see the first post where they doubly clarify it's sold not shipped, this makes the question moot.

It would not be the first time some Sony spokesperson or exec has to eat his own words. I went to the second article and I couldn't find Hirai was as explicit as Tretton was. So it could be you are right, although my feeling is that Tretton was perhaps a bit too confident.

And I would add that when you didn't care when it was shipped or sold, you were also not shy to point out a "negative" scenario how Sony would always get that 11M shipped.

Quote:

Quote: And it doesn't hurt repeating positive things about Sony Of course not . Again in my first reply to you I did post something positive about Sony. Are you expecting something positive about Sony in every post by every person?

Straw man alert! Wasn't it you who pointed out those kind of tactics are used by bottom feeders? My complaint was that that particular post showed mostly negative things and the claim the PS3 might catch up in 2008 looked like a stranger in there. On the other hand, you softened it with a "We'll see".

Quote:

Reflecting on your posts I don't recall positive things about Microsoft. Turn about is fair play feel free to make one in your next post.

Oh, but I never pretended to be neutral, as opposed to you. That's the big difference. As long as you admit you prefer the 360 over the PS3 and that you will also show this in your posts, hey, fine with me. At least in that case we really know where everyone stands.

Last edited by jiyong on 20-Dec-2007 at 04:58 PM.
Last edited by jiyong on 20-Dec-2007 at 04:55 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

I agree that within these threads negativity of both 360 and PS3 have become ridiculous at different points.

I think it all started when some AW members were quietly discussing the PS3's interesting potential and then suddenly XBox 360 fans showed up to proof the 360's alledged superiority, slamming the PS3 any way possible. If only that would have been remotely correct then maybe it would have been acceptable.

On specs the PS3 has more than an edge over the 360 as well as in terms of reliability and built quality, the only real edge the 360 has was being on the market earlier. IMO no real reason to troll PS3 threads for by posting fantasy spec comparisons, reports of burning houses, Sony being the Devil, 'stupid' PS3 fans rioting cities, etc. I think much of what I've written helped to put things into perspective, the US media has become a little more reserved as well, every now and then they still spout some nonesense or overreact to a minor issue, rereading past threads I think I still stand by 95-99% of the things I've written back then, I think for others this is very unlikely to be the case (proven to be wrong or overreacted).

Criticism for 360 failures is IMO of an entirely different magnitude, would the 360 have been a TV set (nomatter how great), a car (nomatter how fast) or mobile phone (nomatter how multi-featured) people like you would have been able to see this more clearly. Xbox 360s are apparently owned by 90% of former XBox fans (according to an analyst), maybe such people overall are far more forgiving towards Microsoft, but that's not to say ordinary consumers aren't allowed to state their criticism and discontent.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-Dec-2007 at 05:03 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 20-Dec-2007 at 04:53 PM.

@eniacfoa

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eniacfoa wrote: coming into this argument, so far i have not seen or heard of any game on PS3 that looks better than whats on xbox360, in fact, reading game comparisons with different platforms on gaming websites, the PS3 is behind the xbox360

It looks like this is all about to change. Even the big gaming sites were raving about the Killzone 2 demos and although you could say Lair was difficult to play, I also saw in a lot of reviews they admitted the visuals were stunning.

Now these two are exclusives, how about the multi-platforms? You are right that in the past the PS3 ports were worse. And don't expect too much from EA.

But when the devs for COD4 start claiming the PS3 version is better, I guess the future looks bright for the PS3. Because I think the PS3 still has a lot of headroom.

http://www.gamesradar.com/us/ps3/game/news/article.jsp?sectionId=1006&articleId=2007112111543578009&releaseId=2007042715365068067

Quote:

isnt blu-ray more draconian than hd-dvd aswell? www.theregister.co.uk favour hd-dvd for that reason...

You are right that Blu-Ray has more protection. In general HD-DVD doesn't use regions and Blu-Ray has divided the world in three. Will this really affect you? I know it has affected me, as I decided to postpone to buy a PS3 as I have been all over the world this year. 6 months in US, 2 in Europe and 4 in Asia. Looks like I will spend most of my time in 2008 in Asia and after that I expect to return to Europe.

Quote:

IMHO you'd have to favour the Wii for christmas, coming in much cheaper, and looking real fun... more people will buy it as a gift surely?

Predictions are that the Wii will the best seller this X-Mas, assuming Nintendo doesn't run out of them.

Edit: Not worth bothering, I'm out of this mess...

Last edited by Zardoz on 20-Dec-2007 at 05:32 PM.

_________________

@jiyong

Quote:

now you already have problems counting beyond 1? There were two things. Start or end of March and shipped vs. sold

I'll disagree with this assesment. Start or end of March was over before you showed up. Shipped vs sold was the only thing seen and new that you brought and only point I contended, so in turn was the 1 thing I considered worthy of discussion.

Quote:

But why flog this dead horse? Didn't I explain the context in my last post? What was that about moving on?

Your apology appeared to be backhanded to me. The first part of the sentence was an apology. The last part, part I snipped, was you recommitting the same structure recreating another blanket statement.

Quote:

I would say it's common knowledge that when a manufacturer talks "sold" that most of the time they will mean "shipped".

You may be right as far as the common usage. But, you are wrong in so far as Sony's usage. If one reads the Mecury News link I posted you will find in the Q&A Jack Trenton clarifying that he means sold and not shipped - Here's the snippet for you
"Q: And are those worldwide numbers, and that’s shipping numbers, is that right?
A: Worldwide numbers, and they’re sales, not shipment numbers. "

Quote:

But that doesn't mean I can't be wrong.

Sure you certainly may be wrong. But as I recall your first post came in accusing the members here of hypocrisy and me personally of failing to do my homework. You have succeeded in duplicating the same crimes that you wished to decry. Welcome to the club!

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I have never seen people use this to prove that the marketplace is big enough for two standards

Okay that's fine. Welcome to something you haven't seen as a supporting example. There's lots of other examples showing multiple formats and types of standards within the AV marketplace. MP3, ITunes, WMA. Or Cassettes, albums, CD, SACD, DVD-A OR VCR, DVD.

Quote:

And I would add that when you didn't care when it was shipped or sold, you were also not shy to point out a "negative" scenario how Sony would always get that 11M shipped.

Neither shipped nor sold is going to impact anyone here. I care even less to rehash a discussion that's been rendered moot. We both agree that Trenton was over confident with the sold #. As you say we can move on.

Quote:

My complaint was that that particular post showed mostly negative things and the claim the PS3 might catch up in 2008 looked like a stranger in there

Thank you for refining and clarifying what you meant. This statement is not as open ended and more consise then the original.

Quote:

but I never pretended to be neutral, as opposed to you. ..As long as you admit you prefer the 360 over the PS3 and that you will also show this in your posts, hey, fine with me

Several times in different threads I have stated I use the 360 80% of the time and PS3 20% of the time. I clearly favor the 360 in 2007. So I'm not neutral in that sense. I'm open to the PS3 finally having better games in 2008, so I'm neutral in the sense that I'm willing to switch and have the ability to. I think this characteristic has been consistent throughout my posts. I'm sorry if you misconstrued I somehow use each or love each equally. I've agreed with MikeB on many occassions the PS3 has potential. Simply put for me Sony needs to show me the potential of the PS3 can be realized.

HD DVD

If anyone hasn't tried it yet the online feature and functionality of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix do so. Live Community interconnects you and your remote friends for live discussions during the movie. It's very seemless and fun to use a remote and cut/edit portions of the movie yourself.

I'm looking forward to newer HD DVD and Blu-Ray getting more creative with these sorts of interactivity.

Last edited by BrianK on 20-Dec-2007 at 07:54 PM.

@MikeB

All the company statements are funny...
When asked about 2008 --- "We will sell more consoles next year than this year," Jeff Bell, head of global marketing for Microsoft's games business, told Reuters in an interview.

So that's what 1?

@Zardoz

/me whistles....

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@Lou

Quote:

Quote: I feel there is a lot of hypocrisy here. All you have to do is read the moderators replies to MikeB to see where that comes from.

The mods have failed their task to keep discussions from getting personally tainted (often they actually participated in the trolling! Wow!), maybe they are envious this website never regained it's former glory when the former staff were really passionate with regard to providing unique services to the Amiga community.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @jiyong Quote: now you already have problems counting beyond 1? There were two things. Start or end of March and shipped vs. sold I'll disagree with this assesment. Start or end of March was over before you showed up. Shipped vs sold was the only thing seen and new that you brought and only point I contended, so in turn was the 1 thing I considered worthy of discussion.

Let me make this clear. I made the observation you seem to have the habit of jumping the gun when it's bad news for Sony.

Yes, you were corrected before, but that doesn't change anything to my observation, right? So when you argued that there were no thingS, that's incorrect. I didn't complain you were never corrected, I "complained" about your negative attitude towards Sony.

And yes, I stand by that smaller blanket statement. And I would say I'm not the only one that noticed this.

Quote:

Quote: I would say it's common knowledge that when a manufacturer talks "sold" that most of the time they will mean "shipped". You may be right as far as the common usage. But, you are wrong in so far as Sony's usage. If one reads the Mecury News link I posted you will find in the Q&A Jack Trenton clarifying that he means sold and not shipped - Here's the snippet for you "Q: And are those worldwide numbers, and that’s shipping numbers, is that right? A: Worldwide numbers, and they’re sales, not shipment numbers. "

I read that and I didn't argue about it (after I read it). Again you only quote my assumption on the sold vs. shipped, but if you reread the whole post, I no longer argued Tretton had said it. On the other hand I haven't seen that Hirai was as explicit as Tretton was, and I looked at the second link you gave me, but I couldn't find that Hirai has said the same things. Although you claimed otherwise.

Quote:

Quote: But that doesn't mean I can't be wrong. Sure you certainly may be wrong. But as I recall your first post came in accusing the members here of hypocrisy and me personally of failing to do my homework. You have succeeded in duplicating the same crimes that you wished to decry. Welcome to the club!

You have failed to do your homework on some occasions. And it seems that it happens more often when it is bad news for Sony. That was my point.

Quote:

Quote: I have never seen people use this to prove that the marketplace is big enough for two standards Okay that's fine. Welcome to something you haven't seen as a supporting example. There's lots of other examples showing multiple formats and types of standards within the AV marketplace. MP3, ITunes, WMA. Or Cassettes, albums, CD, SACD, DVD-A OR VCR, DVD.

That standards don't stop to exist immediately when the newer ones arrive is common knowledge. There are a lot of people who will say SACD and DVD-A failed and are not considered an adopted standard. In the end there have been/are a lot of standards, but we were not discussing them in the way of being a set of technical agreements/specifications, but more in the sense of being a standard by being adopted by the majority of the customers.

The media made this Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD into a big thing and I will stand by my statement that as long as the hybrids don't take off, either one will cease to exist prematurely.

Quote:

Quote: And I would add that when you didn't care when it was shipped or sold, you were also not shy to point out a "negative" scenario how Sony would always get that 11M shipped. Neither shipped nor sold is going to impact anyone here. I care even less to rehash a discussion that's been rendered moot. We both agree that Trenton was over confident with the sold #. As you say we can move on.

You forget that I have a problem with your negative attitude towards Sony. Was it really necessary to throw out that statement about a flooded pipeline?

Quote:

Quote: but I never pretended to be neutral, as opposed to you. ..As long as you admit you prefer the 360 over the PS3 and that you will also show this in your posts, hey, fine with me Several times in different threads I have stated I use the 360 80% of the time and PS3 20% of the time. I clearly favor the 360 in 2007. So I'm not neutral in that sense. I'm open to the PS3 finally having better games in 2008, so I'm neutral in the sense that I'm willing to switch and have the ability to. I think this characteristic has been consistent throughout my posts. I'm sorry if you misconstrued I somehow use each or love each equally. I've agreed with MikeB on many occassions the PS3 has potential. Simply put for me Sony needs to show me the potential of the PS3 can be realized.

I saw your theory about usage and posting. But it looks to me you are also posting 80% (that's an estimate) negative about Sony, but I couldn't find any reason for that in your theory.

If you haven't seen the potential of the PS3, perhaps you should rent some more recent games. I see more and more reviews that the PS3 has achieved better visuals than any other console with some games.

I'm very negative towards M$, but have you seen me sling as much FUD as you have done?

@MikeB

According to the TOS it's not allowed to discuss moderation in public. (I know can be accused of that too)

I would say you "served your time" and after that you behaved quite decent and according to the rules.

It looks like your "opponents" are just as unforgiving as I am with some people here.

Now that X-Mas is upon us (not that I'm religious), perhaps it's time WE ALL (yes, that includes me) look into the mirror and ask ourselves if we want to continue like this.

For me personally I want one apology from one person here about one specific post. For the rest I'm willing to eat my pride.

@jiyong

Quote:

According to the TOS it's not allowed to discuss moderation in public. (I know can be accused of that too)

If handled well, there shouldn't be any problem, if you read back the moderator was actually the cause and decided to discuss this in public himself. Normal procedure, warn people if they are crossing thin borders before banning (unless really malicious!), set a proper example yourself, refrain from name calling whatsoever, moderate in a tasteful and respectful manner, discuss the incident through private messages.

I have one IMO faked abuse report and got banned without notice immediately for a longer period of time than the TOS specified for "first time offenders". IMO badly handled and in conflict with the TOS and going against everything we set up to prevent from moderator abuse while thinking up the TOS and moderator guidelines.

Last edited by MikeB on 21-Dec-2007 at 01:48 PM.

@jiyong
Quote:

Yes, you were corrected before, but that doesn't change anything to my observation, right?

The observation itself no. The contention isn't your observation. The contention at this point is it now appears you are attempting to justify your snide and rude comments as simply an observation.

Quote:

And yes, I stand by that smaller blanket statement. And I would say I'm not the only one that noticed this.

Though I do find it a bit amusing that you accost someone for not doing research and it now ends up that you were wrong on the point and yourself committed the same crime, eg didn't do the research.

Quote:

On the other hand I haven't seen that Hirai was as explicit as Tretton was,

So your concept now is that the problem is that different parts of Sony's Management team is inconsistent with each other? Various gaming and computer sites they've taken Hirari's statements to mean sold, this is but one example. Also one of the early early posts from MikeB was the issue he had that Microsoft counted sold as shipped and how he prefers Sony doing it right counting sold as sold.

Quote:

You have failed to do your homework on some occasions. And it seems that it happens more often when it is bad news for Sony. That was my point.

Your point might be valid. However, when you're wrong on the evidence it doesn't make your point at all convincing. It appeared that you commited the same mistake you were calling others out on. tsk,tsk. Again welcome to the club!

Quote:

Was it really necessary to throw out that statement about a flooded pipeline?

So you can get this out of your butt I'll make a brief statement, then it dies.
You stated the # was shipped not sold. I said that's easy to do overfill the pipeline. What I mean by this maps to your reasoning - manufacture a quantity of consoles larger then the quantity they can sell. I argue it's the same thing just reworded. Looks to me like you might love Sony to the point wher eyou interject emotions into emotionless statements.

Visuals of the PS3 are improving. Uncharted looks great, as I've said. If I recall my Lair review was low in the 5-6 range but again I said the visuals look great. So we agree visuals look great. But giving Lair a 5 is unimpressive in my book. I'd rather play a 9-10 with slightly worse visuals then a 5 with great one's. Heck Super Mario Bro series are highly repeatitive and have crappy visuals, eg not photographic quality, but most are great games which I'd rather play then Lair. I think everyone with a PS3 should try Lair. But, I encourage them to rent it, do not buy.

Last edited by BrianK on 21-Dec-2007 at 07:00 PM.

@MikeB

MikeB wrote:
@Lou
Quote:

Quote: All you have to do is read the moderators replies to MikeB to see where that comes from. The mods have failed their task to keep discussions from getting personally tainted (often they actually participated in the trolling! Wow!), maybe they are envious this website never regained it's former glory when the former staff were really passionate with regard to providing unique services to the Amiga community.

Mike - leave moderation out of it, or have you yourself forgotten the TOS? Yes, this does include Lou as well.
MANY people don't agree with you, nor your posting style, several Staff members included, and see many/most of your own posts as baiting or trolling. Deal with that fact, and accept the reactions from people based on it, or off course, you are free to leave if you're unhappy here.

I won't say none of my own responses haven't become personal to an extent- it's impossible not to to an extent when you are asking for someone's credentials, or trying once again to point out how a person's posting style often irritates others.

Last edited by wegster on 21-Dec-2007 at 03:19 PM.
Last edited by wegster on 21-Dec-2007 at 03:15 PM.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @jiyong Quote: According to the TOS it's not allowed to discuss moderation in public. (I know can be accused of that too) If handled well, there shouldn't be any problem, if you read back the moderator was actually the cause and decided to discuss this in public himself. Normal procedure, warn people if they are crossing thin borders before banning (unless really malicious!), set a proper example yourself, refrain from name calling whatsoever, moderate in a tasteful and respectful manner, discuss the incident through private messages. I have one IMO faked abuse report and got banned without notice immediately for a longer period of time than the TOS specified for "first time offenders". IMO badly handled and in conflict with the TOS and going against everything we set up to prevent from moderator abuse while thinking up the TOS and moderator guidelines.

Last warning Mike, next one you will be taking a vacation. An AR was already filed on you. I won't process it myself, as I might not be the most unbiased person to look at it, so will leave it to another Staff member.

You haven't been a member of Staff for a long time now. I don't even recall your own moderation incident, but it's up to members of Staff as to deciding on appropriate action. Since you _left_ we've decided on first, second, etc offense guidelines, but as always, it remains up to Staff, and there have been times we've challenged others decisions, to make sure Staff is in agreement with any restriction placed, etc.

Regardless, leave it alone. This applies not simply for today, but in the future as well. Abide by the TOS yourself, or leave. Stay and continue, and we'll 'help' you leave as long as you're breaking the TOS yourself.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

I promised to report on any progress on getting my Microsoft Wheel retrofitted (although I haven't had any issues with it). After sending my card in, what, three - four months ago I finally got the return box in the mail yesterday.

Now I can send the wheel in and maybe get back to playing with it by summer? I haven't played racing games for a while now so no biggie, I'll probably still send it in even if I have no problems since I'm not really doing much with it at this time and better get it serviced.

@jtsiren

Retrofitted? Retrofitted for what?

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!