@Lou & Fairlanefastback

Not an assumption, first part was stated on Windows Weekly, an MS friendly podcast.


http://twit.tv/ww119

Starts 53:22 minutes in - "24 million PS3 worldwide, 30 million Xbox 360 worldwide", "PS3 & Xbox 360 neck and neck"

I'm not debating that each system does not have it's fans. Milions of very loyal Xbox, Wii & PS3 owners.

The 2nd part was my experience based on everyone I know that owns an Xbox 360 locally. I also want to state that I'm not biased and own all three consoles. Late adopter of 360 since my younger son wanted it. What a damn loud console even when playing a DVD movie! My son complained it already scratched one of his games. MS is the lowest cost console ($199) but that version has no HD. This is more challenging for developers because they have to make sure their games run off DVD for the Xbox customer that has the XBox Arcade.

I feel long term based on PS2 sales (140 million) that the PS3 which is part of the Playstation brand will do very well. 24 million in sales is very successful already in fact. We would love to sell 24 million of one of our products.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

All this tells us is that "everyone you know" is so enamored with playing with their Microsoft console that instead of being able to live without it for a while for it to be repaired, they gave Microsoft hundreds in cash more each to each have a personal backup unit. Not many products can boast such loyal consumer reaction in the face of such a widespread and widely publicized problem with the product.

One other stat reflecting the popularity of the 360 was a recent survey of 360 owners was done. One question was if they'd get rid of the 360 if it failed and ~7-8% said yes. 93% said they'd get rid of the 360 when it fails. That's a good level of commitment.

Quote:

But sadly my Xbox has been more reliable. My PS3 sometimes freezes if left on overnight. My Xbox has had zero issues of any kind so far.

My launch PS3 has a infrequent freezing problem. Some games crash the system. Also half way through a Blu-Ray the fan goes into turbo overdrive loud mode. Measures louder than my 360's loudest reading. Thus, while the PS3 is supposed to be the best Blu-Ray player I prefer my HTPC which is quieter.


@Lou
Quote:

Say what you will about MS, you can't knock a 3 year warranty.

My launch 360 RROD after 2 years of ownership. The exchange process took about 3 weeks. I think 2 weeks for people is not unheard of. One thing I learned is the 3 year warranty is per console. The exchanged console has a 3 year warranty from my receipt date. Really this is a 5 year warranty.

In the marketplace this consecutive warranty model is rare. I've had Western Digital and Seagate harddrives returned within their 3 year warranty. One only gets the remainder of the warranty on the drive, in one case this was 4 months, not another 3 years. The same for autos. When one gets a 5 year warranty if it breaks you only get the remainder of the warranty not another 5 years. My experience with Sony is that they don't do this. My PS2 broke in under 1 year of ownership. It was repaired. It broke again. But, the 1 year warranty was not renewed and this time the best option was to simply buy a new PS2. So, yeah extra Kudos for Microsoft for back to back warranty's on repairs.

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

24 million in sales is very successful already in fact. We would love to sell 24 million of one of our products

Depends on Return On Investment. ROI for the PS3, read profits, is predicted by many analysts to never be seen. If I recall correctly the PS3 losses has eaten most of the PS2 profits.

@BrianK

An indepth study regarding the past 2 years:

http://www.squaretrade.com/htm/pdf/SquareTrade_Xbox360_PS3_Wii_Reliability_0809.pdf

An interesting note was that failure rates of the XBox 360 minus those issues covered by Microsoft extended warranty is still higher than the total percentage of PS3 failures within the 2 year period.

The article also makes some other interesting notes like the Wii not being played on as much (thus less likely to fail) and many people bypassing their warranty service, due to many people contacting Microsoft directly with regard to RROD issues instead (for instance to save time).

Interesting read. And yes, 360 reliability improved but is still well ahead of its rivals with regard to system failures.

Last edited by MikeB on 02-Sep-2009 at 02:59 PM.

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

I also want to state that I'm not biased and own all three consoles. Late adopter of 360 since my younger son wanted it.

And you don't feel the slightest bit hypocritical in your stances here against other fellow Microsoft customers on this site?

Quote:

The 2nd part was my experience based on everyone I know that owns an Xbox 360 locally.

How many is that? Again, it just tells us they either have tremendous brand loyalty, or that they are very addicted to the product, or some combination thereof. Either way, given that the RRoD already exists, internally at Microsoft this would be a big boasting point, to say that the product inspires that much customer loyalty and/or addiction in use that folks go and buy backup units. BTW, these folks, did they ever think to pool together and only buy one backup unit to share (assuming at least some of them know each other)? LOL Especially given the fact there are no retail stock issues and anyone can buy a unit without any issue any day of the week?

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Sep-2009 at 03:32 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Sep-2009 at 03:30 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

Some of MS business practices are questionable and they have been found guilty of this and fined in several courts. But we have nothing against MS customers. We are an MS customer in fact. You can be critical of anything you buy especially if it has merit. We were also critical of the way Commodore mismanaged the Amiga. Your skipping over the fact that Windows Weekly, an MS loyal podcast stated PS3 & Xbox 360 are neck in neck in competition. That's great for customers by the way and makes each product better. Sony's reward to MS for trying to hurt PS3 sales is making Google Chrome the default browser on all Sony computers sold. It's kind of a funny.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 02-Sep-2009 at 03:36 PM.
Last edited by DiscreetFX on 02-Sep-2009 at 03:33 PM.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @fairlanefastback Some of MS business practices are questionable and they have been found guilty of this and fined in several courts. But we have nothing against MS customers. We are an MS customer in fact. You can be critical of anything you buy especially if it has merit.

Of course you can. But that is not what you were doing here recently. If this is your new attitude, bravo!

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@fairlanefastback

When my son wanted a 360 I could have just said no but that would have been a little silly. Don't want to be like B Gates, his wife is not allowed to have an iPhone and Google products can't be used in his house. No iPods are allowed either. Heard it's the same in S Ballmers house. Customers should be allowed to buy and use whatever they want.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03032009/news/nationalnews/melinda_gates_craves_apple_products_157831.htm

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Last edited by DiscreetFX on 02-Sep-2009 at 03:45 PM.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @fairlanefastback When my son wanted a 360 I could have just said no but that would have been a little silly. Don't want to be like B Gates, his wife is not allowed to have an iPhone and Google products can't be used in his house. No iPods are allowed either. Heard it's the same in S Ballmers house. Customers should be allowed to buy and use whatever they want. http://www.nypost.com/seven/03032009/news/nationalnews/melinda_gates_craves_apple_products_157831.htm

Cool. I hope you keep this openmindedness up the next time a fellow Amigan is defending why they use some other Microsoft product themselves.

As for what Bill Gates allows in his house, lets be realistic, if you owned a ton of stock in a company, which its in your best interests to preserve the value on, especially so you can keep up your philanthropic work, let alone the sheer embarrassment it would cause the firm, what makes sense?

If he or his wife used an Apple product, you'd be posting a thread here to make fun of them ASAP. Since they aren't, you make fun that she can't despite her candor.

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@all

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote: No, but a transcript is something I can read on the run. The video I'll only be able to get to tonight or tomorrow.

I finally got a chance to listen to this. The way it seemed to me is that the good news is that they say they got the PS3 version to perform at a top level. But the downside was it took them a lot more work to do it due to the complexity of the system and lower-end nature of the GPU (as described by them). And they claimed no one else was yet able to achieve what they have (seemingly because of the complexity?).

So, as a Sony investor I'm happy to hear that a company like Crytek is achieving what it is, that will greatly help the platform. I do find it a bit disturbing though that this long after release, that the platform is still considered such a complex/challenging platform to many developers. It would be nice to see Sony increasing efforts to get more developers better educated, especially now that the PS3 is at a much better price point.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Sep-2009 at 05:22 PM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Sep-2009 at 05:21 PM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

An interesting note was that failure rates of the XBox 360 minus those issues covered by Microsoft extended warranty is still higher than the total percentage of PS3 failures within the 2 year period.

I find it interesting from the standpoint that prior to the recent PS3 price cut the 360 was the only console to gain in sales compared to last year. Also of interest is that the 360 has a higher games sold per console then the others.

Quote:

360 reliability improved but is still well ahead of its rivals with regard to system failures

So even with the well established knowledge within the market of problems the market hasn't been hit hard. Or conversely if 360 sales have been hit hard then Sony can thank luck that their competitor had their own problems.

@BrianK

Quote:

I find it interesting from the standpoint that prior to the recent PS3 price cut the 360 was the only console to gain in sales compared to last year.

Basically you're giving half the answer yourself indirectly. The PS3 didn't see an official price cut since 2007 and the XBox 360 did.

Quote:

Also of interest is that the 360 has a higher games sold per console then the others.

The XBox 360 had a 1 year headstart in the states and even more in Europe. PS3 owners buy more games per month of ownership than 360 owners.

The PS3 attach rate is currently about 7.9 per console, at the end of 2008 the 360 had an attach rate of 8.1. IMO nothing to overhype, considering the headstart (people owning their console for more months on average, thus increasing the amount of games bought per console).

Quote:

So even with the well established knowledge within the market of problems the market hasn't been hit hard.

Hit hard with regard to reputation, but probably it sparked additional sales. Remember that for years 360 fans have been shouting everywhere the issues had been resolved with every new 360 model released. So new buyers in the past may have been misinformed, but once you invest a lot into the platform it's more likely you stick with it and swallow what you are being served.

@MikeB

But is it not just as easy (and valid) to say in response:

Quote:

Remember that for years 360 fans have been shouting everywhere the issues had been resolved with every new 360 model released.

Remember that for years PS3 fans have been shouting everywhere that issues have been ongoing with every new 360 model released.

Quote:

So new buyers in the past may have been misinformed

So new buyers in the past may have been properly informed.


It works both ways Mike. And I doubt its very measurable to say which has been more impactful to sales.

Again, my personal experience has been zero issues with my Xbox 360 (circa the release of Mass Effect in the U.S.) and occasional freezing on my PS3, usually when left on overnight (obtained the following January approx).

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Remember that for years PS3 fans have been shouting everywhere that issues have been ongoing with every new 360 model released.

I haven't read many of those claims, mostly comments like it remains to be seen.

But clearly the Falcon and introduction of the Elite did not bring the issue within acceptable range, actually there was a big spike in failure percentage after the Falcon's release.

Actually this study is very nice to use and compare to my past comments, they released a study before. And all my comments with criticism have been unerlined by themselves this time and have been confirmed.

It should however be noted this study only regards newly sold units, not the people who have gone from refurb to refurb, nor does it cover the disc scratching issues a lot of people are experiencing in my country.

Just testing the internet channel of my Wii from which I am writing this. Nintendo just made it free!

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@fairlanefastback

The iPhone/iPod Touch works on Windows, MS did not have to make the the Zune and compete with it, they chose to. Just like they did not have to complete with their long time partner Sony. MS chose to complete with these company's and many more spreading themselves very very thin. What they should have done instead is focus on making Windows and Office better for their longtime customers.

@MikeB

Yup, my son's new 360 already scratched one of his games. I expect a RRoD before too long. He does not use the 360 much so maybe it will take a while. I know it's coming though.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 02-Sep-2009 at 09:25 PM.
Last edited by DiscreetFX on 02-Sep-2009 at 09:15 PM.

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@ErikBauer

Quote:

ErikBauer wrote: Just testing the internet channel of my Wii from which I am writing this. Nintendo just made it free!

There's an upgrade coming in October to update Flash and a few other things.

@Lou

AFAIK the update I installed today already updated Flash. I don't know if October update will update it even further... (Heck writing from my PC with a keyboard is lots faster but I have to admit that the Wii built in Virtual Keyboard with integrated T9 option is not bad either...)

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @fairlanefastback The iPhone/iPod Touch works on Windows, MS did not have to make the the Zune and compete with it, they chose to. Just like they did not have to complete with their long time partner Sony. MS chose to complete with these company's and many more spreading themselves very very thin. What they should have done instead is focus on making Windows and Office better for their longtime customers.

The Amiga CD32, Atari Jaguar, Sega Saturn, and 3D0 Interactive Multiplayer console were all to market before Sony. And several of those firms had been in the home video console business for years and years already (such as Nintendo, whose fifth gen system came out after Playstation). That did not stop Sony from deciding to compete in that field, and they certainly did so with the idea of knocking out the competition. Its just as easy to say that Sony should have stayed focused on their traditional products. The truth is large companies tend to want to become diversified to some degree, so that they can weather issues in one area or another in the long term by having a hand in other areas. Thats true of MS, Sony, and many many other firms.

BTW you still have not answered how many folks you personally know that keep spare backup Xbox 360s for fear of RRoD.

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Last edited by fairlanefastback on 02-Sep-2009 at 09:38 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

Not that it matters but I know four people, my sons friends. The way I heard it was that Nintendo partnered with Sony to make a CD drive for the SNES then backed out of the deal. Sony made the decision to then go ahead and complete the design as a whole system (Playstation) rather then waste R&D already spent.

Quote

"Nintendo was now allied with Philips, and Nintendo was planning on abandoning all the previous work Nintendo and Sony had accomplished. Lincoln and Minoru Arakawa had, unbeknownst to Sony, flown to Philips headquarters in Europe and formed an alliance of a decidedly different nature—one that would give Nintendo total control over its licenses on Philips machines.

After the collapse of the joint project, Sony considered halting their research, but ultimately the company decided to use what they had developed so far and make it into a complete, stand alone console. As a result, Nintendo filed a lawsuit claiming breach of contract and attempted, in U.S. federal court, to obtain an injunction against the release of the PlayStation, on the grounds that Nintendo owned the name. The federal judge presiding over the case denied the injunction and, in October 1991, the first incarnation of the new Sony Play Station was revealed."

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 02-Sep-2009 at 09:52 PM.
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