@MikeB

Quote:

I haven't read many of those claims, mostly comments like it remains to be seen.

Odd, they seem quite frequent on some of the console sites. Regardless, the point was no one can measure what the word of mouth has done to impact sales, whether its with a positive spin for MS as you claim is the prevailing wind, or negative, as you are personally portraying it. (This is assuming there is not some publicly available study that I am unaware of).

When you say the prevailing positive spin may be helping sales, well thats just an unknown to everyone really. I'm sure some people are affected, in both directions, based on all the fanboy flamewars about this stuff. But its not measurable.

Instead you seem to just use it to try to give validity to a theory of yours, that certain sales figures for Xbox360 are higher than they "should be" because folks got duped or something by what you seem to view as MS fanboy propoganda.

From personal experience, which is not statisically significant, just as what you have said is not, the only RRoD my friends have had was on early units (2 out of 3) and none on replacement units, or on newer ones. Of PS3 units mine, 1 out of 3, has an intermittent freezing issue. Of the other two one is a very early unit, the other one about a year newer than mine,

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@DiscreetFX

This does not address your contention that MS should not compete in areas where others already have products, but where its ok for Sony to. You are painting it ok because Nintendo supposedly betrayed Sony. But if we use the logic you apply to MS, then Sony should not have even partnered with Nintendo in the first place, because its a corporate evil to compete with other existing players (like Atari, Sega, AmigaCD32, etc). But you don't apply that logic to all firms. You give others a pass when they do such (like Sony or Google).

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

whether its with a positive spin for MS as you claim is the prevailing wind, or negative, as you are personally portraying it. (This is assuming there is not some publicly available study that I am unaware of).

A friend told me about a kid who thought he had bought a XBox 360 with 3 years of warranty. He was quite upset when he had to pay for getting his console fixed.

He got this idea from misinformation spread on the internet. 3 years warranty sounded good and thought he was thus covered for any hardware problem for 3 years. If you just read a random comment from a 360 fanboy regarding hardware issues it's not that unlikely you would think this would be the case.

Last edited by MikeB on 02-Sep-2009 at 11:14 PM.

@fairlanefastback

Don't forget that between B Gates & S Ballmer they have about 5 milion 360's stashed in their houses to keep the numbers propped up. Those never get RRoD since they stay turned off.

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@MikeB

Quote:

He got this idea from misinformation spread on the internet. 3 years warranty sounded good and thought he was thus covered for any hardware problem for 3 years. If you just read a random comment from a 360 fanboy regarding hardware issues it's not that unlikely you would think this would be the case.

If you read any random comment on the internet (on any subject) and take it as fact thats going to much more often than not yield undesirable results. Random 360 fanboys hold no special status on stating things incorrectly on the internet, whether it be purposeful or innocently wrong.

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@fairlanefastback

"If you read any random comment on the internet (on any subject) and take it as fact thats going to much more often than not yield undesirable results. Random 360 fanboys hold no special status on stating things incorrectly on the internet, whether it be purposeful or innocently wrong."


So true.

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@fairlanefastback

I was just pointing out, these things probably has some sort of effect on some or maybe many people.

@MikeB

Quote:

Basically you're giving half the answer yourself indirectly. The PS3 didn't see an official price cut since 2007 and the XBox 360 did.

What are you saying here? The 360 was more attractive so consumers purchased it more? And/or Sony failed to keep the PS3 in an attractive area for the market? Personally, I think a bit of both.

Quote:

e PS3 attach rate is currently about 7.9 per console, at the end of 2008 the 360 had an attach rate of 8.1. IMO nothing to overhype, considering the headstart (people owning their console for more months on average, thus increasing the amount of games bought per console).

More people owning their console for longer doesn't necessarily they buy more games. Well, that is of course unless they love the system. Someone mentioned here that the 360 might have some users buying a backup console. If so, the games are even more popular on a per console basis. Now that the PS3 is in a more reachable price I expect to see the 7.9 # decrease. We'll see.

Quote:

Hit hard with regard to reputation, but probably it sparked additional sales. Remember that for years 360 fans have been shouting everywhere the issues had been resolved with every new 360 model released.

PS3 fans at the same time were selling the 'unresolved' nature. In fact you still are. So how this played out we're not sure. Do you believe the 360 lost sales due to RROD? If so how many purchased the Wii vs PS3? In your posts I read the RROD as negative. Thus, the 360 lost sales. My bet is lost sales are hardcore gamers. As such I bet the PS3 gained more would be 360 users than the Wii did. Sony got lucky due to Microsoft's reliability worries.

Quote:

He got this idea from misinformation spread on the internet. 3 years warranty sounded good and thought he was thus covered for any hardware problem for 3 years. If you just read a random comment from a 360 fanboy regarding hardware issues it's not that unlikely you would think this would be the case.

Good the kid learned not to put his complete faith in online forums. Both sides post things that aren't true. Sometimes on purpose. Sometimes just in trying to understand what's truly happening. Now imagine the poor kid that had to pay $150 for Sony to fix his PS3. He probably wishes he bought a 360 w/ the warranty. Heck at one time he could have bought 2 360s at the price of a PS3 + repair.


@fairlanefastback

My 360 RRoD issue. Mine was a launch console impacted by RRoD nearly 2 years after purchase. I could use more HDD space so after I got my 360 back I put it up for sale. A friend actually bought it. He's had it 2+ years. I've had the Elite which replaced it 2+ years. So 1 out of 3 is my direct experience. This seems to be par for the course. The failures I know of from friends were all launch consoles. (Though not all launch consoles have failed.) In all cases the replaced has ticked along flawlessly since.

Oh and MikeB talks about the horrid DVD scratching issues. Not to say it doesn't exist but none of our games show this problem.

I bought a PS3 on launch. Thanks goodness since it had BC, SACD, more USB ports & multi card readers. All features that are now missing. Those features are important to me and I paid $599 for the privilege. Many people just want to play games though or watch Blu-ray movies and those features are less important for them. My system is well built and has never had a problem in three years.

The problem with the PS3 was the same as 3DO, the price was way to expensive for most customers. That problem killed 3DO hardware off even though the system was nice for it's time. With the new $299 price on old and new systems Sony has resolved this big problem. Their sales went nuts since the price drop. With more exclusive titles coming out all the time the PS3 should have a nice life from now on.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 03-Sep-2009 at 01:54 AM.
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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @fairlanefastback Don't forget that between B Gates & S Ballmer they have about 5 milion 360's stashed in their houses to keep the numbers propped up. Those never get RRoD since they stay turned off.

Amusing to be sure. I'm not without a sense of humor. But it would also appear this response is illustrative of you not having a good response to post #642.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 03-Sep-2009 at 06:59 AM.

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@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @fairlanefastback I was just pointing out, these things probably has some sort of effect on some or maybe many people.

Sure, its *possible*. But in the end two "somes" one "maybe", and one "probably" don't give us much of anything tangible to work with. Especially when both sides of fanboys seem to each put in sizable efforts to sway others. Who is to say if they basically negate each other, or if one wins out over the other in any significant amount of translated tangible sales?

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@ErikBauer

You can use a USB keyboard with the Wii.

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @fairlanefastback The iPhone/iPod Touch works on Windows, MS did not have to make the the Zune and compete with it, they chose to. Just like they did not have to complete with their long time partner Sony. MS chose to complete with these company's and many more spreading themselves very very thin. What they should have done instead is focus on making Windows and Office better for their longtime customers.

LOL! You have read on how the PS1 came to be right?

Pot
Kettle
BLACK!

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

DiscreetFX wrote: @fairlanefastback Not that it matters but I know four people, my sons friends. The way I heard it was that Nintendo partnered with Sony to make a CD drive for the SNES then backed out of the deal. Sony made the decision to then go ahead and complete the design as a whole system (Playstation) rather then waste R&D already spent. Quote "Nintendo was now allied with Philips, and Nintendo was planning on abandoning all the previous work Nintendo and Sony had accomplished. Lincoln and Minoru Arakawa had, unbeknownst to Sony, flown to Philips headquarters in Europe and formed an alliance of a decidedly different nature—one that would give Nintendo total control over its licenses on Philips machines. After the collapse of the joint project, Sony considered halting their research, but ultimately the company decided to use what they had developed so far and make it into a complete, stand alone console. As a result, Nintendo filed a lawsuit claiming breach of contract and attempted, in U.S. federal court, to obtain an injunction against the release of the PlayStation, on the grounds that Nintendo owned the name. The federal judge presiding over the case denied the injunction and, in October 1991, the first incarnation of the new Sony Play Station was revealed."

What you are ignoring here is that Sony wanted a licensing fee on the software also, not just on consoles manufactured...which is pretty ridiculous.

That's like GM asking Exxon/Mobile for money every time someone puts gas in their car.

@DiscreetFX

Quote:

The iPhone/iPod Touch works on Windows, MS did not have to make the the Zune and compete with it, they chose to. Just like they did not have to complete with their long time partner Sony

Same logic can be applied to Sony i.e. PS1 is a platform that competes against MS's platform. So much for being a "long term" partner.

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@DiscreetFX

Quote:

I bought a PS3 on launch. Thanks goodness since it had BC, SACD, more USB ports & multi card readers. All features that are now missing. Those features are important to me and I paid $599 for the privilege.

I think what is clear is the PS3 missed the market on day 1. Some of the features it sold as important, BC, USB, were cut. (Yes, SACD was too but I don't recall them really using it as a selling point.) This allowed them to simplify hardware and in turn reduce their price to something more market accessible. As such the PS3 being a lesser machine at a lesser price is better matched for consumers. It is likely to have a better life now. Chrismas 09 will be a tough race for all 3 consoles. 2010 launches for the PS3 should mean it does well. (But, who am I say I predicted the PS3 to pull ahead of the 360 by 2008.)

If the PS3 continues it's sales I predict Microsoft will make a smaller 360 for Christmas 2010. Rumors are the Valhalla model of 360 will be coming in 2010. This is a shrink of CPU/GPU perhaps even unified. If unified the console could use a shrink. Or some sort of refresh. Especially if, as Microsoft said, they expect the 360 to sell well into the next decade. As for the RRoD. I think the paper MikeB posted shows that Jasper indeed improved this issue.

The question is how will the Wii do? If this Christmas is bad for Nintendo I think the Wii HD will be coming in 2011.

Last edited by BrianK on 03-Sep-2009 at 12:47 PM.

No suprise here:
http://www.edge-online.com/news/wii-tops-console-reliability-study

Quote:

For its newly released report, titled Game Console Failure Rates, SquareTrade analysed failure rates for over 16,000 new game consoles covered under its warranties. The company found the Wii to be nine times more reliable than the Xbox 360 and four times more reliable than the PS3. Looking at the first two years of ownership, 2.7 per cent of Wii owners reported a system failure to SquareTrade, compared with ten per cent of PS3 owners and 23.7 per cent of Xbox 360 owners. Excluding Red Ring of Death failures, 11.7 per cent of Xbox 360 owners reported a failure. The most common types of problems seen with the PS3 and Xbox 360 were disc read errors and output issues, while the Wii had more power and remote control issues than the other two systems. “Of the three major 7th generation game consoles, we can safely say that the Wii is the most reliable system on the market, with just one-fourth the malfunctions of the PS3 and Xbox 360. Even when adjusted for the lower rate of usage , the Wii leads the pack by a comfortable margin,” said SquareTrade. “Our study also found the Xbox 360 to have the highest rate of failure by far, largely due to the Red Ring of Death. While our data indicates that RROD continued to persist as a major problem through 2008, it showed signs of finally abating with the introduction of the latest Jasper chipset in late 2008.”

Emphasis mine.


Poop on Nintendo for dropping Sony on the PS1...all I can say is Sony quality speaks for itself - Philips drives win hands down. I'm glad the N64 didn't have the "quality" issues the PS1 did. Don't even get me started with Gamecube quality.

Last edited by Lou on 03-Sep-2009 at 01:01 PM.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/09/02/firmware-3-00-blamed-for-malfunctioning-ps3-controllers/

Love that Sony quality!

@Lou

Quote:

Love that Sony quality!

Some reports are saying this problem is only related to non-Sony controllers. Though this should not matter. Sony certified the controllers for operation with the PS3. It reminds me of how certain Sony certified games would not play on certain PS2 models. What value does the 'Sony certified' logo truly mean to the consumer? Related 3.0 issues are coming in of Uncharted freezing w/ the new firmware.

Sony has had firmware problems before. V2.4 was pulled and v2.41 came out. The problem here is some people lost all their saved games. (At least with RRoD you can use your HDD on a new console and not lose all your hard work. ) V2.42 impacted some consoles preventing Blu-Ray and DVD playback, reports of online ability lost, and certain games freezing. v2.76 also effected some consoles earlier this year. There were complaints that Sony charged people to fix their PS3 which was tanked by the v2.76 update. But, afterall no warranty so the end user was stuck. Needless to say Sony's PS3 history of firmware updates has been less than perfect.

Last edited by BrianK on 03-Sep-2009 at 05:58 PM.

@fairlanefastback

Sony experience

What I know of Sony is they have sold me great TV's and professional video cameras for many years. My 18+ year old 25" XBR TV finally got replace a few years back not because it died but because I got a Plasma TV. I have also purchased Sony desktop computers in the past. I did have a problem with one of them in 2002. The DVD Burner opened and refused to close. Sony overnighted a FedEX box, picked up the machine and had it back to me fixed in 4 days.

Google experience

Google has given me a great search engine and many great services for free. They also claim to do no evil and I believe that claim.


MS Experience

May or may not have had something to do with the death of Commodore. Most definitely killed Netscape Corp. a great company. Who knows what the internet would look like today if Netscape had not been destroyed. MS has also been on an idea stealing and software company killing spree for many years. That's why I don't give them a free pass and don't trust what they do. Your mileage with MS may very. It's my opinion and everyone else has their own as well. I like the fact that the Xbox 360 competes with the PS3 though and keeps that team on their toes. PS3 is probably better thanks to open competition. Good for customers, Google Chrome on all Sony computers is good for customers too.

Last edited by DiscreetFX on 03-Sep-2009 at 09:26 PM.

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