@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @MikeB Quote: I think the PS2 is a good example here as it's still a popular and well sold system despite its now old no more leading edge technology (comparing to the Wii). Where you seem to be misguided is applying the positives of the PS2 to the PS3. It's yet to be proven the heir apparent to the PS2 crown. In fact the Wii looks to steal that title.

From an actual purchasing userbase, it has. In total software sales, it has also.
The PS2 never enjoyed more than 40 million active users as statistics point out.

@BigD

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BigD wrote: @ErikBauer Quote: Are you so sure so many people don't use their Wii regularly? If so, why Wii games continue to sell? Tired parents buying cheap and cheerful Wii party games for their children in order to keep them quiet Almost all charting AAA Titles at the moment seem to be Nintendo! It's great to see 'Just Dance' doing well and also the masterpiece 'Big Catch: Bass Fishing 2' Other than that the UK All format Sales charts feature the following Wii games: 1) Super Mario Galaxy 2 (Wii) 5) Just Dance (Wii) 6) Wii Fit Plus (Wii) 10) Wii Sports Resort (Wii) Exciting!!

To me Guitar Hero is not a hard core game. That is a casual game and that game alone made the PS2 what it was. PS2 was last gen's casual system. The hardcore games were a result of the larger userbase publishers were targetting.

Those hardcore games still usually sold better on the Xbox, but the Japanese publishers didn't support Xbox like they are with the 360.

SMG2 is a hard core game. It's #1. It's also casual-friendly. But it's a hard game unless you use the ingame guide. So Nintendo gave people what they wanted but made it so anyone could advance through it.

So your point fails on the current #1 selling title for the Wii.

The other thing is, I am a niche gamer, I rarely buy the top 10 titles. I prefer my tacticle RPG's and such. Fire Emblem Wii is a HARD (and I mean HARD) game. Oh and it's made by Nintendo. If you look at the monthly "what people are playing" stats Nintendo publishes, Fire Emblem owners have logged over 40 hours on the game. I will not allow myself to advance in the game if someone dies, so I'm only 1/3 through it and have 32 hours in. The game is f'in hard if you refuse to let people die and try to level them all up equally...but hey, that's just me.

Perhaps instead of playing what everyone has, you should investigate and *rent* games you might like, as I suggested before. Stop being a follower and accepting what's handed to you and take initiative.

Edit: I should note that Fire Emblem has an easy mode like all old school games, but f the effin easy mode, know what I mean?

Last edited by Lou on 25-Jun-2010 at 02:38 PM.

@BigD

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BigD wrote: @ErikBauer Quote: Yet you have to explain me the "Too similar to Play2" thing. Similar technology. Graphics are similar, PS2 has DVD playback out of the box and Wii can play DVDs if hacked etc. The Eyetoy is just as functional as the Wiimote IMO and in many ways makes the distinction between the PS2s hardcore and casual games that little bit more clear. I actually like 'Just Dance' however I prefer the 'Dancing Stage' games (DDR in the USA) on the PS2 and find Singstar and Buzz are about the limit of my casual/party game tolerances! The Wii just doesn't hold my attention. I'm good at REAL tennis but can still get beaten by a 6 year old on Wii Tennis, because it isn't to do with skill but familiarity with the twitchy controls! It seems it can be just as easily controlled from the sofa with a flick of the wrist than if controlled standing up! To be able to complete Star Wars: The Force Unleashed with waggling is very disappointing and developers other than Nintendo have been very lazy up until this point.

None of those games use Wii Motion Plus (WM+). Get Wii Sports Resort and waggle no longer cuts it. It's as sensitive(more actually) as MOVE and it's been here for over a year. Waggle got people interested in motion controls, WM+/Move is the next step.

Nintendo has not been lazy, they've been breaking people in. Gaming was going down hill by the #'s before the Wii. Nintendo brought casuals back and is slowly making them hard core again. That has been the plan all along with their Blue Ocean stagedy.

@Lou

I do not tend to go to my friends house specifically to play the Wii! It just come up in conversation, "Do you fancy a go on Wii Sports?" This then seems to drift onto Raving Rabbids or WarioWare: Smooth Moves! Never have I been offered Red Steel, Metroid or even Mario Galaxy! I fail to see who the 'active' Wii owners are. Most of them are satisfied by complete tat! I suppose on the PS2 there were quite a few people that just bought Fifa or Pro Evo every year like clockwork and that was it!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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BigD wrote: @Lou I do not tend to go to my friends house specifically to play the Wii! It just come up in conversation, "Do you fancy a go on Wii Sports?" This then seems to drift onto Raving Rabbids or WarioWare: Smooth Moves! Never have I been offered Red Steel, Metroid or even Mario Galaxy! I fail to see who the 'active' Wii owners are. Most of them are satisfied by complete tat! I suppose on the PS2 there were quite a few people that just bought Fifa or Pro Evo every year like clockwork and that was it!

Yes. That is my point.
The other great thing about the Wii, since you are old school, is the Virtual Console.
- Sega Genesis
- SNES
- NeoGeo
- TG16
- N64
- etc...

See if you can rent a Wii for a weekend and rent Red Steel 2. You will be hooked.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/sony-has-%E2%80%9Cno-plans%E2%80%9D-for-3d-psp

Sony has no plans for 3D PSP2...

Tisk tisk tisk...

@Lou

Well seeing as I already have all 3 of the Midway Treasures Collections, Hyper Streetfighter 2, Metal Slug Anthology, Street Fighter Alpha Anthology, Marvel Vs Capcom 2, SNK Vs Capcom: Chaos and Capcom vs SNK: Mark of Millenium for the PS2. I think I'm all set for Retro action

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

3DTV off to a start in the USA

"PORT WASHINGTON, NEW YORK, June 22, 2010 - 3D TV and 3D Blu-ray standalone player revenue in the U.S. has exceeded $55 million in the first three months since the launch of these products in February, according to leading market research company The NPD Group's Retail Tracking Service."
* Certainly not all TVs are the same price but using the Samsung 40" LED TV least cost 3D on their catelog it's $2K for the set. Add $350 for two pairs of glasses. Add another $400 for a 3D Blu-Ray player (or your PS3 if you will) and people are at least $2800 into 3D. This is roughly 19,500 consumers in the US. There is roughly 100M homes in the US. In the first 3 months we see .02% of the population buying into the 3D set. 4Q 2009 in the US saw 10,000,000 HDTV sets sold. So roughly .2% of all HDTVs are presently 3D capable.

There are a number of assumptions, of course. Certainly 1Q 2010 doesn't have the push of Christmas so I'd suspect we're below 10M. On the other hand Tech Enthusiasts buy larger sets so I'd bet more on the 46"-55" sizes instead of the 40". This would up the $2K to a $2,500-$3,000 range. I suspect anywhere from .15-.4% is at most what 3DTV is making up at present.

"The NPD Group's Analyst Poll of NPD Panelists cited "looking silly" as a main concern of the glasses, whereas 41 percent cited not having enough glasses on hand for everyone watching the set. " -- Likely they're waiting for glasses cost to drop. If you try to watch 3D without the glasses it's even more blurry. Personally, I have more respect for my guests then give 1/2 a good viewing experience and give the other 1/2 a severe headache.

Playstation Plus more details are announced.

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Free, rotating monthly PSN games

Seems to me this would be a great way to sell a game, give free trials. But, free trials not pay for trials.

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Discounts

- Xbox Silver (the free service) gives this weekly.

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Early Beta/Demo Access

- Xbox Gold ($50/year list) gives this too.

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Full Game Trials

1 hour trial of a game. Seems to me lots of work to download a lage game image for an hour, at an extra charge. A bit different but similar enough to the 360.

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Automatic Downloads

Great idea! Game and console patches load while you sleep. No need to wait for your game to be patched the next time you pay for it. Though I argue this should simply be free, afterall one is going to patch the game anyway why not allow the user to set the time of day to do this. I work all day it'd be great to enable my PS3 to use the DSL line at 1PM when no one is home. (Though personally not worth paying for.)

Seems to me the 'Plus' is mostly a pay for rental service. There is some dispute if Cross-Game Chat is coming. Something that's in Xbox Silver and 360.

Last edited by BrianK on 25-Jun-2010 at 06:20 PM.

@BigD

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Well seeing as I already have all 3 of the Midway Treasures Collections,

Here is the LIST of Midway games for platforms. (including Amiga). You'd have to look deeper if the older Midway Games for the Xbox are backwards compatible on the 360.

@Lou

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From an actual purchasing userbase, it has. In total software sales, it has also. The PS2 never enjoyed more than 40 million active users as statistics point out.

So what you're saying is the Wii is allowing more people to play beyond Sony.

@BrianK/Lou

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From an actual purchasing userbase, it has. In total software sales, it has also. The PS2 never enjoyed more than 40 million active users as statistics point out.

I have difficulty accepting such opinions as indisputable facts.

For example from March 2003 to March 2004 over 20 million PS2s were sold, making the install base over 71 million.

I assume those 20 million new PS2s sold would clasify as active users? And what about the 50 million sold before that?

We hear a lot of claims from fanboys, like PS3 users either aren't interested in playing Blu-Ray movies or PS3 users aren't interested in playing games. As more games were sold for the PS3 last year than for the XBox 360 despite a small hardware lead for the XBox 360 I think we can rule the latter out. And with regard to Blu-Ray movie playback a very large percentage of PS3 users are taking advantage of this feature according to available statistics.

I think until concrete evidence is provided we should take such comments with a grain of salt.

@MikeB

So MikeB, what you are saying is that the #1 selling PS2 game only penetrated 12% of the userbase?

Yet we have top selling Wii software in almost 40% of userbase...and almost doubling the sales count of the top selling PS2 game.

I would say 3 - yes, 3 - is the average # of PS2's bought by anyone who's ever purchased a PS2. My brother owned 4 and his friend 5.

I myself own 2 Gamecubes (and duct-tape, no jokes please). One original that I kept original, then one to mod for homebrew that I chipped. Both still work, ofcourse. -_-

So would you count me twice as active GC user of the time?

Everyone (industry experts) agrees that Nintendo has grown the industry. 50 million hardware units can be greater than 130 million if 50 million are in use vs. people buying steadily cost-reduced hardware to replace broken hardware. Is that so hard to believe in a 9-year PS2 history vs. 4 year higher quality Wii history?

I already linked the chart about how far ahead of PS2 sales the Wii is, year for year.

The Wii sold 3 million in DECEMBER 2009 in the USA. Nothing else was even close...ever. Why fight this argument?

#2 and #3 this gen have exceeded sales units from last gen by 20%.
#1 is at 40% of last gen's #1 yet as a whole the industry is larger.
Last gen's #1 was about 5x more hw sales then last gen's #2. This gen, only 1.75x.
Yet, the industry is larger.

The industry is active users actively buying software.
Statistics show PS2 never exceeded 40M active users. Probably closer to 35M.

Since you are on the Sony Defense Force, you will not believe it...but whatever.

Last edited by Lou on 26-Jun-2010 at 02:23 AM.

@Lou

Looking at software sales it's clear that the 360 and PS3 are splitting their market. LINK

Look at the worldwide software sales chart. What we see is a clear victory by the Wii. There are 10 Wii games prior to the first Xbox 360 game, at #34. The 360 game is an exclusive. Look at the PS3 games. Not until #126 does the PS3 produce an exclusive on the chart. What we do see is the 360 game winning with a lesser sale amount coming later for the PS3. As I said up top -- 360 and PS3 are splitting their market. And even if the two combined their sales the Wii is still running away with the win.

Last gen Microsoft was last place. Clearly they're doing something right if they can take out the old #1 player, especially with a slighly less powerful and more prone to breakage console. Last gen Nintendo was #2. They clearly know the market since they expanded it and took the lead. Nintendo just had to sit back and watch the 360 and PS3 fighting for #2. Even if the 360 doesn't hold #2 they won over last gen. Sony is unfortunately not so lucky this time. The mighty has fallen.

EDIT: Lou I'd say 3 PS2s is about right per person. They always seem to break. Now my 3rd one can't seem to read all games. Typical POS. Too bad Sony won't stand behind their products. I can run them on my launch PS3 but at this point I'll just sell most of the games.

Last edited by BrianK on 26-Jun-2010 at 03:07 AM.

@Lou

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Yet we have top selling Wii software in almost 40% of userbase...and almost doubling the sales count of the top selling PS2 game.

Let's keep this simple, for one Nintendo seems to bundle their own Nintendo games longer with the Wii than Sony did. For example the PS3 is bundled every couple of months with different games, often 3rd party titles. I think Sony's approach is more fair to 3rd party publishers.

Mario Galaxy for example is considered a flagship title for the Wii, it sold almost 9 million copies so far. Gran Turismo is considered a flagship title for Sony and Gran Turimso 3 A-Spec sold about 15 million copies for the PS2.

Sure the amount of PS2s sold is now more than double than that of the Nintendo Wii, but you will have to remember once a game console is available on the market for a longer period of time the second hand market (for example in this thread I recommend a person to look for a second hand copy of last year's Uncharted 2 release) and in the case for the PS2 piracy plays a bigger role. (Actually after a few years many titles can only be bought legally through the second hand market)

I hope this helps you put things back into perspective.

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I would say 3 - yes, 3 - is the average # of PS2's bought by anyone who's ever purchased a PS2

We don't know, that's pure speculation on your part. What does the average PS2 owner do when they buy a new console? Do they simply trash the old machine into the trashcan or are they being resold cheaply (or given away, etc), as they are usually very easily fixed?

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Jun-2010 at 09:33 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 26-Jun-2010 at 08:32 AM.

@ Lou

Or let's make it even simpler. The top games sold on the Wii sold a lot compared to top PS3 games, yet the software attach ratio for the PS3 is higher than for the Wii despite Wii games are usually sold cheaper.

The simple explanation to me seems to be PS3 owners from the grand perspective sport more diversity in their games libraries.

I played Resistance: Fall of Man co-op with a friend 2 days ago, still an awesome game IMO.

New Crysis 2 gameplay footage:
http://www.holyfragger.com/multiplatform/first-person_shooters/crysis_2/news/?a=1515

IMO this looks like what Resistance 2 should have been like!

@MikeB

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Let's keep this simple, for one Nintendo seems to bundle their own Nintendo games longer with the Wii than Sony did. For example the PS3 is bundled every couple of months with different games, often 3rd party titles. I think Sony's approach is more fair to 3rd party publishers.

Your response was to a comment about 40% sales of a game. Doesn't matter who bundles longer if something isn't popular then people aren't buying it.

As for the comment about 'fair to 3rd party' -- perhaps it's true but it's a strawman. No one made an opposite claim nor does it support the conversation of a 40% penetration for a Wii game.

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The simple explanation to me seems to be PS3 owners from the grand perspective sport more diversity in their games libraries.

You'd have to provide some evidence for that statement. The number of titles does not mean a diversity in game library. You'd have to show us what games are most owned by both and that Wii games count are truly less diverse.

For example, you had claimed the 360 is the platform for FPS games. Yet out of thet 25 best selling games the PS3 and the 360 FPS comprises 1/3 of the titles. So, no the 360 isn't an FPS platform any more than the PS3 is one.

And yes Crysis2 looks great. Can't wait to see how the 360 does vs the PS3 on the crytek engine for this game. I think those doubters that believe the 360 is tapped will be shown otherwise.

Last edited by BrianK on 26-Jun-2010 at 01:57 PM.

@BrianK

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Your response was to a comment about 40% sales of a game. Doesn't matter who bundles longer if something isn't popular then people aren't buying it.

You seem to be following a different discussion than me. Lou pushed this example forward to claim it's evidence of the PS2 never having had an active userbase beyond 40 million.

Sorry, I don't see it, do you? Understand?

Does a game need to sell to 40% of the userbase to be popular? What if most of your userbase are kids and you created a game geared towards a mature userbase (kids not allowed to play this game)?

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You'd have to provide some evidence for that statement.

Simple 1+1 logic. If more games are sold for a platform per system than for another system, this while this other system has titles which penetrated the userbase relatively much more, this means the software sales for the first system is spanned over other titles.

For example, let's keep it simple by sticking to low numbers.

Platform 1 has 10 games released.
Platform 2 has 10 games released.

For Platform 1 100 games are sold in total.
For Platform 2 80 games are sold in total.

Platform 1's best seller sold 20 copies.
Platform 2's best seller sold 50 copies.

That would mean:
For platform 1, 80 (as 100 minus 20 makes 80) copies were sold divided over the 9 other remaining titles.
For platform 2, 30 (as 80 minus 50 makes 30) copies were sold divided over the 9 other remaining titles.

Conclusion: The average owner of a platform 1 console has more diversity amongst his or her's games library.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Jun-2010 at 03:24 PM.

@BrianK

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For example, you had claimed the 360 is the platform for FPS games.

I said FPS games seem relatively more popular amongst XBox 360 owners, meaning if you pick out a random 360 owner you will more likely find a shooter like Halo, Gears of Ware or Call of Duty in their games relative to PS3 owners.

I don't understand why such a comment is a problem for you. Most even know shooters aren't as popular in Japan, a market where the PS3 has a much larger install base than the XBox 360. I also said for the rest of the world major multi-platform releases such as Modern Warfare seem to be performing on par with the 360.

I don't see the problem here. Just a harmless observation. As we know certain games like Streetfighter IV, Final Fantasy XIII and Grand Theft Auto sell relatively better on the PS3.