http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/06/25/killzone-3-demoed-on-jimmy-fallon/

His reaction to Killzone3D is !

Interesting new picture showing a helgan forest in Killzone 3:

http://i47.tinypic.com/291yoly.jpg

@ErikBauer

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Now Imagine DOOM4 played this way..

Scary ####, yes I would love to try Doom4 in 3D with Move!

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @ Lou Or let's make it even simpler. The top games sold on the Wii sold a lot compared to top PS3 games, yet the software attach ratio for the PS3 is higher than for the Wii despite Wii games are usually sold cheaper. The simple explanation to me seems to be PS3 owners from the grand perspective sport more diversity in their games libraries.

WiiFit is/was $90 and it's what, the #1 or #2 selling game on Wii? Much more expensive than PS3 games. WiiFit was not bundled.

If PS3/360 games cost more to develop, how is this Nintendo's fault? Is it not the platform holder that defines this?

MS and Sony can only blame themselves.

Your arguments fail.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: Your response was to a comment about 40% sales of a game. Doesn't matter who bundles longer if something isn't popular then people aren't buying it. You seem to be following a different discussion than me. Lou pushed this example forward to claim it's evidence of the PS2 never having had an active userbase beyond 40 million. Sorry, I don't see it, do you? Understand? Does a game need to sell to 40% of the userbase to be popular? What if most of your userbase are kids and you created a game geared towards a mature userbase (kids not allowed to play this game)? Quote: You'd have to provide some evidence for that statement. Simple 1+1 logic. If more games are sold for a platform per system than for another system, this while this other system has titles which penetrated the userbase relatively much more, this means the software sales for the first system is spanned over other titles. For example, let's keep it simple by sticking to low numbers. Platform 1 has 10 games released. Platform 2 has 10 games released. For Platform 1 100 games are sold in total. For Platform 2 80 games are sold in total. Platform 1's best seller sold 20 copies. Platform 2's best seller sold 50 copies. That would mean: For platform 1, 80 (as 100 minus 20 makes 80) copies were sold divided over the 9 other remaining titles. For platform 2, 30 (as 80 minus 50 makes 30) copies were sold divided over the 9 other remaining titles. Conclusion: The average owner of a platform 1 console has more diversity amongst his or her's games library.

LOL, that's all well and good, but the Wii has 4 titles selling more that PS2's #1 and 2 more set to overtake it:

The top 10 selling Wii games.

1.Wii Sports (63.46 million)[68]
2.Wii Play (27.38 million)[68]
3.Wii Fit (22.61 million)[68]
4.Mario Kart Wii (22.55 million)[68]
5.Wii Sports Resort (16.14 million)[68]
6.New Super Mario Bros. Wii (14.70 million)[68]
7.Wii Fit Plus (12.65 million)[68]
8.Super Smash Bros. Brawl (9.48 million)[68]
9.Super Mario Galaxy (8.84 million)[69]
10.Mario Party 8 (7.6 million)[70]

The top ten best-selling PlayStation 2 video games.

1.Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas (17.33 million approximately)[104][unreliable source?]
2.Gran Turismo 3: A-Spec (14.89 million approximately: 7.14 million in North America, 1.89 million in Japan, 5.85 in Europe)[94]
3.Gran Turismo 4 (10.76 million approximately: 2.97 million in North America, 6.36 in Europe, 1.26 in Japan)[94]
4.Grand Theft Auto: Vice City (9.21 million approximately: 8.2 million in US,[19] 410,293 in Japan,[105] 600,000 in UK)[36]
5.Grand Theft Auto III (7.509 million approximately: 6.55 million in US,[19] 358,917 in Japan,[105] 600,000 in UK)[36]
6.Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty (7 million)[106]
7.Final Fantasy X (6.6 million) [107]
8.Final Fantasy XII (5.2 million approximately: 2.4 million in Japan,[108] 1.7 million in US,[19] 1.1 million in Europe;[109] 5.2 million shipped)[110]
9.Kingdom Hearts (4.68 million approximately: 3.45 million in US,[19] 1.23 million in Japan;[48] 5.9 million shipped including Kingdom Hearts Final Mix and Ultimate Hits)[111]
10.Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King (4.44 million approximately: 3.6 million in Japan,[48][112] 410,000 in Europe,[113] 430,000 in North America;[114] 4.88 million shipped)[115]

You'll notice only 6 genres in the PS2 list yes on the Wii list there are 8 genres. So much for diversity on Sony platforms...

It gets worse on PS3:
PlayStation 3 games top 10 in sales.

1. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (4.74 million approximately; 3.531 million in the US,[25][26][27][28] 219,338 in Japan,[117] at least 1 million in UK)[30]
2. Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (4.65 million)[94]
3. Uncharted 2: Among Thieves (3.5 million)[118]
4. MotorStorm (3.31 million)[119]
5. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots (3 million shipped as of December 31, 2009)[120]
6. LittleBigPlanet (3 million)[121]
7. Grand Theft Auto IV (2.659 million approximately: 1.89 million in US,[33] 169,000 in Japan,[122] 600,000 in UK)[36]
8. Final Fantasy XIII (2.6 million approximately: 1.8 million in Japan,[123] 828,200 in US[124])
9. Uncharted: Drake's Fortune (2.6 million)[125][126]
10. Resistance: Fall of Man (2.5 million)[127]

I only see 5 genres there: fps, racing, platformer, 3rd person adventure, rpg

Also looking at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Wii_video_games

I see 5 fps games selling over a million on Wii.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/06/25/killzone-3-demoed-on-jimmy-fallon/ His reaction to Killzone3D is !

He's one fine actor as the article notes.

Strange that they would advertise the jetpack as a cool new feature but then make it an on-rails segment. :/

As we know, I occassionaly dable in FPS games. What makes this (other than playable in 3D) game unique? Deux Ex had rpg+stealth, Metroid has puzzle solving + exploration, Red Steel has sword fighting... So KZ3 has 3D compared to yet another generic fps, is that it? I'm very picky with FPS games, I just don't see the appeal other that kill, kill and kill some more - only in 3D. It's the reason I don't play CoD or MoH games anymore.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/06/25/killzone-3-demoed-on-jimmy-fallon/ His reaction to Killzone3D is !

LOL, the very next day, Jimmy Fallon plays DKCR and 3DS with much more genuine reactions.

http://kotaku.com/5573315/nintendo-of-america-says-when-nintendo-3dss-will-be-out

I should mention that Retro Studios (Metroid Prime series) was the developer the the beautiful Donkey Kong Country Returns.

Last edited by Lou on 26-Jun-2010 at 08:35 PM.

@MikeB

Here's what you stated"
Quote:

seems to be PS3 owners from the grand perspective sport more diversity in their games libraries

You gave an example of how the logic might work. You gave no evidence that reality this is how it's working. Does you theoretical match the actual? You haven't demonstrated so.

Besides failing to demonstrate that these ratios are a reality neither have you demonstrated diversity. Using your example let's look at 'diversity'. Let's assume the 10 best sellers of platform 1 are all RTS games. Let's assume the 10 best sellers of platform 2 is comprised of 1 RTS game and the other 9 games are each their own genre. Now look back and you'll find that while the #s favor platform 1 but the diversity truly favorts platform 2.

So we see that not only your numbers fail to match reality but they also lack reflecting diversity. You need to tell us not only purchase number but genre those purchase reflect.

Thanks for the example. However, your theoretical does not demonstrate reality and as such does not support your point.

(Edit: had doubled 'platform 1' corrected the mistype.)

Last edited by BrianK on 27-Jun-2010 at 02:33 PM.

@Lou

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WiiFit is

Hyped amongst non-gamers unlike any game within the PS2 games library. Why would you think such people are the people who buy more traditional games than people who bought a PS2 for more gamer's games?

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Your arguments fail

I fail to see how the popularity of Wii-Fit proves that the active PS2 userbase at its hights was smaller than 40 million and the Wii is more than 40 million.

So I think this argument fails to provide any real evidence. Actually what you often hear is people buying into the Wii-Fit hype intending to loose some weight, etc, but like with other weight loss methods loose interest quickly.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Jun-2010 at 11:14 PM.

@Lou

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LOL, that's all well and good, but the Wii has 4 titles selling more that PS2's #1 and 2 more set to overtake it:

Look the arguments were active userbase, attach ratio and diversity. For example China may has more millionaires than the United Kingdom, but that does not mean the average Chinese is richer than the average brit, quite to the contrary,

Do you understand this logic? Your example does not prove Wii owners buy more games than gamers on other platforms. Actually your data combined with total software sales actually suggest otherwise, on average Wii gamers buy fewer games, but the games that sell well are bought by a relative large group of the userbase. (as you demonstrate the top 10 is dominated by Nintendo's own games)

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Jun-2010 at 11:16 PM.

@Lou

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So KZ3 has 3D compared to yet another generic fps, is that it?

Killzone 2 was far from generic. And I think the stereoscopic 3D for this and other games including Motorstorm Apocalypse will be very important, really making such games far more immersive than most may think. I think many who try this, will feel the urge to move forward into this direction. I am more convinced of the future of 3D gaming than with regard to the current motion control projects.

I hope Crysis 2's 3D will be well done. I think this may waken up the hardcore XBox 360 userbase on what they will be missing out on without owning a PS3.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Jun-2010 at 11:18 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: LOL, that's all well and good, but the Wii has 4 titles selling more that PS2's #1 and 2 more set to overtake it: Look the arguments were active userbase, attach ratio and diversity. For example China may has more millionaires than the United Kingdom, but that does not mean the average Chinese is richer than the average brit, quite to the contrary, Do you understand this logic? Your example does not prove Wii owners buy more games than gamers on other platforms. Actually your data combined with total software sales actually suggest otherwise, on average Wii gamers buy fewer games, but the games that sell well are bought by a relative large group of the userbase. (as you demonstrate the top 10 is dominated by Nintendo's own games)

No it doesn't prove Wii owners by more games per piece of hardware, it statistically proves more people own Wii's and are buying software.

When someone is replacing their broken hardware, they are not doing it to buy extra games but to continue playing the ones they own.

Also, Nintendo makes the best software for Nintendo platforms, I fail to see how this should rule out the #'s.

Your claim to the average Wii owner buying fewer games may or may not be true, but the Wii is only on the market for 1/2 of PS2's lifetime, that said, much software sales have eclipsed PS2 sales for the top titles. Hence more people who own Wii's are actively buying games, which is what I've been saying all along. The active PS2 userbase was never greater than 40M. Too many people simply replacing broken hardware.

I think it's you that fails to understand both logic and statistics.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: WiiFit is Hyped amongst non-gamers unlike any game within the PS2 games library. Why would you think such people are the people who buy more traditional games than people who bought a PS2 for more gamer's games? Quote: Your arguments fail I fail to see how the popularity of Wii-Fit proves that the active PS2 userbase at its hights was smaller than 40 million and the Wii is more than 40 million. So I think this argument fails to provide any real evidence. Actually what you often hear is people buying into the Wii-Fit hype intending to loose some weight, etc, but like with other weight loss methods loose interest quickly.

Casual games like Guitar Hero (previously a PS2 exclusive) are what made PS2 what it was, how is this different from Wii?

You are the one who fails to provide evidence to the contrary when I show you real sales values and derived statistics that prove my point. The PS2 was the causal system.

Another point. I have a launch Wii and it still works. If I had a launch PS2, I most probably could not make the same statement. Infact I don't know anyone who hasn't owned more than one(PS2) after owning one because it needs replacing at some point.

The PS3 has good quality, but PS1 and PS2 were straight garbage. That is one reason I did not get it at launch also. Bad history with Sony vs. good history with Nintendo.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: So KZ3 has 3D compared to yet another generic fps, is that it? Killzone 2 was far from generic. And I think the stereoscopic 3D for this and other games including Motorstorm Apocalypse will be very important, really making such games far more immersive than most may think. I think many who try this, will feel the urge to move forward into this direction. I am more convinced of the future of 3D gaming than with regard to the current motion control projects. I hope Crysis 2's 3D will be well done. I think this may waken up the hardcore XBox 360 userbase on what they will be missing out on without owning a PS3.

My comments were regarding gameplay. I did not mention immersion as Wii took this first step when they added direct-point targetting to FPS games...and motion controls for other games/genres.

How is the gameplay different from every other generic fps game?

Last edited by Lou on 27-Jun-2010 at 03:16 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 27-Jun-2010 at 03:15 AM.

@MikeB

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I am more convinced of the future of 3D gaming than with regard to the current motion control projects.

Convinced?

What is convincing you of this? In the 7th gen the SD systems are winning. The HD systems are splitting that market. The 3DTVs well aren't even gaining .01% a month at present. Motion control system is also winning this gen. The 2 systems without motion controls are splitting the other 40% of the market. Motion controllers are $100 vs 3DTV upgrade, anywhere from $1K-$5K depending. And there's a worldwide recession going on.

So what is 'future'? Future in this case is NOT the short term next 1-2 years. Future is out farther than 3 years. At that point one adds other new variables such as Xbox3 and Wii2. Which, assuming they have 3D, mean the PS3 has lost it's selling point.

What is here to convince you that 3D, read cornering a smaller elite % of the Tech elite crowd, is somehow a huge financial win for Sony?

@Lou

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The PS3 has good quality, but PS1 and PS2 were straight garbage.

I think I'm an anomaly. My PS1 is the original one I bought. My PS2, well if you count using the PS3's PS2 emulation then I'm on my 4th one.

MikeB wrote:

Quote:

I hope Crysis 2's 3D will be well done.

Sadly this appears not to be the case... The game uses concave 3D effects where objects do not pop out of the screen, so less advanced like earlier 3D games and the 3DS. It will still be like looking through a window, more depth. But not as advanced 3D experiences as with Sony exclusives:

Killzone 3: “it looks stupendous - bullets zip out of the screen while particles such as snow and sparks are tangible elements of the game world. It feels like much more than a gimmick as well: peripheral details such as raging seas thrashing the icebergs combine with the way the player's gun seems to hang out of the screen (and indeed people were living up to the age-old clich? and reaching out to touch what wasn't there during the presentations) to create a level of immersion that's truly beyond anything we've seen to date.”

@Lou

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The active PS2 userbase was never greater than 40M. Too many people simply replacing broken hardware.

Sorry I won't accept this as an indisputable truth without you providing true evidence.

To me it seems outrageous to claim that of the 71 million PS2 sold by the end of March 2004, 31 million were broken, unrepaired and trown into the trashcan. A very large part of those will even have been covered by warranty...

Sorry, I don't believe in your 'facts'.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: The active PS2 userbase was never greater than 40M. Too many people simply replacing broken hardware. Sorry I won't accept this as an indisputable truth without you providing true evidence. To me it seems outrageous to claim that of the 71 million PS2 sold by the end of March 2004, 31 million were broken, unrepaired and trown into the trashcan. A very large part of those will even have been covered by warranty... Sorry, I don't believe in your 'facts'.

The PS2 warranty was standard 1 year. Most I saw broke in the 13th month. There are lawsuits on record regarding the PS2's quality.

I certainly do expect you to believe it being on the SDF, but BrianK's owned 4...I wonder how many BigD has purchased... I already explained my family and friends' history with them.

I've also had bad history with a Sony 3.5" floppy drive and 2 CD-R/RW drives on my PC.

@Lou

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I wonder how many BigD has purchased.

I have only ever owned the Slim PS2 model. I bought one new in 2004 and bought another second hand in 2006. Both are still in fully working order! Am I right in thinking the Slim models were more reliable?

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

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BigD wrote: @Lou Quote: I wonder how many BigD has purchased. I have only ever owned the Slim PS2 model. I bought one new in 2004 and bought another second hand in 2006. Both are still in fully working order! Am I right in thinking the Slim models were more reliable?

Which raises another point. I assume you bought one for the living room and one for your bedroom to save you the trouble of moving it around. That still makes you one active consumer having owned 2 units. Your household will not buy 2 copies of the same software in general.

So we got:
My brother: 4 (then switched to Xbox original)
His friend: 5
BrianK: 4
BigD: 2 (Slim models)

So far, that's 3.75 per active consumer. Anyone else want to add to the statistics?