@Lou
Quote:

That's ONE BEEEEELLLLION!

Thanks for the posting. Other postings have this at $1.2B. I think more impressive was the article indicated a gross margin of 65%? WOW!

@MikeB
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If that source is correct that means half of XBox 360 users do not pay extra to play online, I thought it was once claimed a majorty of 360 users pay to play online?

The answer is it depends on what the definition of is is. On the pedantic layer Microsoft said around half. We don't know what that % is. If it's 52% then yes both are right. That # is around half and is the majority.

The other 'is' question depends on timing. Early on in a console's life one gets more Tech Enthusiats. They are often more willing to pay the $50 online fee*, in the case of the 360, or the $400 surcharge, in the case of the PS3. As such I'd suspect the inital uptake is higher than the long term usage.

For many users, apparently, the free service is all they need. Silver users can still voice chat and text with any other user, even if those users are in a different game. They can have an Avatar for an online presence and display their acheivements to others. They can also buy content from the online store. So -- new content, 250+ games, weapons, maps etc. are all still available to the silver user. I know you're worried that everyone wants to game online but not everyone has the exact same needs as MikeB.


*Note $50 is the list price. The new list price for families is $99 for a group of 4 people. What was $200 is now $100. In addition, one can find sales and discounts. I recently bought an extra month of Gold for $1. Though that wasn't extendable beyond a single month. My last yearly purchase was around $30, a good percentage discount.

@MikeB

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What do you mean with "full bitrate"? Lossless audio and lossless video in FullHD? You want to stream that from remote servers with the average US household having access to internet bandwidth of less than 4 Mbits/s, which equals about half a megabyte per second?

The problem you denote is an incoming bandwidth problem. This isn't console specific. Don't forget some people are slower than 4 and some are quicker. So my friend with 10Mb/s to his home will obviously have less of a problem then my 2.5Mb/s.

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With low bitrates trying to uppen the output quality a new codec could be made. Usually the "better" the codec (meaning being able to produce smaller sized data while retaining similar quality output) requires more processing power. Considering the enormous processing power (/bandwidth) of the Cell processor, in theory by splitting the data over all the SPUs can result in superior results (less data to be streamed per second).

Thanks for the clarification. As you said 'in theory'. I agree. On paper that all sounds great. We've yet to see anything close to a demonstration that the Cell can do better than the Xenon on 1 stream. I suspect this will remain theory. It's the reality of what is brought to the consumer which is important for sales.

@BrianK

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all they need. Silver users can still voice chat and text with any other user

Can't most with internet access already do this on their laptops and smartphones? My laptop is online about 18 hours a day and my iPhone is always online.

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I know you're worried that everyone wants to game online but not everyone has the exact same needs as MikeB

No, but I think it is a significant inhibitor for those who want to play their games online. The most popular 360 games like Halo 3, Call of Duty and Gears all sport short campaigns, without the online component in those games the value is greatly reduced.

I do think online play should be free on the XBox 360, in any case I think users should be aware of such additional costs as I know many weren't when they bought a 360 (likewise with regard to Wi-Fi and other lacking features like HDMI, extreme RRoD issues in the past, etc). I think it was good Sony tried to highlight the differences with regard to specifications in the past, but sadly 360 fanboys (including US media) in the past went on a massive campaign to counter with misinformation / negativity.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2010 at 05:53 PM.

@BrianK

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So my friend with 10Mb/s to his home

That's still a far cry from Blu-Ray-like bitrates. Look, I am not against digital distribution of video at all and apparently neither is Sony. Often fans make it seem as there's a Sony vs digital distribution on 360 format war, that's simply not the case.

It's not really competing directly with Blu-Ray rather an interesting option for people who do not care much about image and audio quality.

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We've yet to see anything close to a demonstration that the Cell can do better than the Xenon on 1 stream.

The PS3 movie quality on the PS3 is significantly better than anything available on the 360 (which was HD DVD).

We have also seen lots of the Cell's potential demonstrated in public. For example new Toshiba software allows their new CellTVs to record six HD channels simultaneously in 1080p and upscale to very well done 3840 X 2160p while also realtime converting any 2D content into stereoscopic 3D. If that's not showing muscle then I don't know what is...

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2010 at 05:42 PM.

@MikeB

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Can't most with internet access already do this on their laptops and smartphones?

The result of this is forcing users to spend extra money. What if the user doesn't want to spend a few hundred on a laptop or phone in addition to their console? You seem to be worried about $50/year for Xbox Live and willing to trade that for $700/year in smartphone data connection fees.

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in any case I think users should be aware of such additional costs

I disagree with your view. It's very easy to be a well informed consumer of consoles if one so chooses. Your worry about WiFi and HDMI is a good example. The only reason to not know this is the individual failed to read anything about the product, including the box.

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It's not really competing directly with Blu-Ray rather an interesting option for people who do not care much about image and audio quality.

Digital downloads are competiting with Blu-Ray in my home TODAY. I'm not the only one there are millions of us Tech Enthusiasts and the # will grow in the future. It will grow as costs are reduces and bandwidth increases to the home.

The view that it's 'do not care much bout image and audio quality' attitude is short sighted. It's exactly this position that Sony took which caused them to miss out on the digital audio revolution. The iPod ate the Walkman market. It's coming to digital video next.

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The PS3 movie quality on the PS3 is significantly better than anything available on the 360 (which was HD DVD).

Significantly better? Nope. Perhaps you should actually use a 360. Us others have both.

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We have also seen lots of the Cell's potential demonstrated in public. For example new Toshiba software allows their new CellTVs to record six HD channels simultaneously in 1080p and upscale to very well done 3840 X 2160p while also realtime converting any 2D content into stereoscopic 3D. If that's not showing muscle then I don't know what is...

But wait I gave a similar example and you stated you weren't talking about recording multiple streams but now you are? How much improvement is the PS3 over the 360 for a single stream. You know the thing that people are actually using when they stream 1080p over the internet. Certainly you talked down US bandwidth. If they are barely able to do 1 1080p stream as you state it's a theoretical at best that they care about 6 3D streams at 2160p. Again paper vs reality MikeB.

@BrianK

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The result of this is forcing users to spend extra money.

I think you don't understand what I wrote, don't the bulk of people who have internet access also own a PC, laptop or whatever? (For example the XBox 360 does not come with a webbrowser). Personally I don't think chatting support on the XBox 360 and PS3 which both allow video chat is much of a factor with regard to people buying a computer or laptop or not.

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$700/year in smartphone data connection fees

What? Unlimited internet broadband access on an iPhone3Gs costs about 10 euros a month extra (also often included for free in the package).

This means you can be online while on the road sporting a fullblown and competent webbrowser, something you can't do with home consoles.

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It's very easy to be a well informed consumer of consoles if one so chooses.

Not everyone even understands what those features mean and why they are important. I think you think to easy about this.

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Digital downloads are competiting with Blu-Ray in my home TODAY.

Are you sure it's not competing more with cheaps DVD and rentals in your home? Without being able to download the video you would per se have bought it on Blu-Ray?

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Significantly better? Nope.

Yes, in any case a bigger difference than those small codec difference there were in the distant past.

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But wait I gave a similar example and you stated you weren't talking about recording multiple streams but now you are?

Yes to demonstrate the Cell power. For example being able to run 10 Pacmans it does not take much imagination to vision the same hardware running one really advanced version of Pacman.

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If they are barely able to do 1 1080p stream as you state

What do you mean?

@MikeB

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I think you don't understand what I wrote, don't the bulk of people who have internet access also own a PC, laptop or whatever?

Likely yes. But, why force a user to turn on an extra device, watch an extra screen, or forced to be surrounded by other technology if they wish to message or chat? Today consoles have chat and they are optional. If the user wants to use something else they can but they don't have to.

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What? Unlimited internet broadband access on an iPhone3Gs costs about 10 euros a month extra

T-Mobile is one of the lower cost providers in the US. Phone only is $30/month at the low end. But that's limited calls and no data. Add data it's twice as expensive. Or on the higher end of unlimited calls and unlimited data that's $80/month. Other US carriers are even more expensive. Some are over $100/month for unlimited online and unliminted calls.

So what is seemingly cheap $120 Euro/year to you is a expense that's nearly 6x that for the US user. I can see why you believe $50 to be expensive comparitively. I hope you can now see why $50 in the US is cheap comparitively.

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Not everyone even understands what those features mean and why they are important.

At some point we have to put some responsibility on the user of a product to understand their needs and what product is more desireable. Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo all have great information about their products available. It's up to the user to take time to understand their desires and if a product lines up with those expectations.

Last edited by BrianK on 07-Jul-2010 at 07:40 PM.

@BrianK

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forced to be surrounded by other technology if they wish to message or chat?

Well for important messages I expect to receive them through my phone or laptop, not on my console. If I am playing a game I rather not be disturbed with trivial stuff.

Text pop-up messages are fine, but sometimes it can be disruptive for immersion. In any case I don't think chatting with people who are playing other games than I am is that crucial (why not just send a text message and if I decide to stop gaming and join his game we can chat from there if so desired). Most of the people I know seem to agree.

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I hope you can now see why $50 in the US is cheap comparitively.

Well 360 fans seem to have been upset by the 500 dollar PS3 launch pricing, the 360 costed 400 dollars in 2005, plus 5 times 50 dollars is 650 dollars and still lacking many features (and power/capacity) compared to a launch PS3.

Personally I find 400 dollars a lot for a console built with low quality components, a console extremely prone at breaking. I just don't get the turmoil back then in the United States.

Quote:

At some point we have to put some responsibility on the user of a product to understand their needs and what product is more desireable.

Of course, but if you read back there was a lot of misinformation being spread by both Microsoft and XBox 360 fans. Microsoft for example claimed that the hardware failures were well within industry standards (at least up to the point of lawsuits / having to admit problems to shareholders) and the most vivid 360 fanboys got very malicious if you would claim anything else.

Could you clarify what you meant in your previous posting at the end?

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Jul-2010 at 08:36 PM.

@MikeB

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for important messages I expect to receive them through my phone or laptop, not on my console.

That's you. Again different strokes for different folks. I have friends I've met gaming. I doubt they know my real name let alone my phone. If they have something important I expect they will contact me through Live.

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If I am playing a game I rather not be disturbed with trivial stuff.

I don't consider my friends trival stuff. Seriously, you can turn it off for that session or always if you don't want to use it. But, don't force the rest of the world to not do something because you don't.

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In any case I don't think chatting with people who are playing other games than I am is that crucial.

It all depends on use. Not having the option on PSN you haven't had the opportunity to try it. For example, I helped a friend through 1 game while I played another. Messaging builds community. It feels much more connected to do it in the game then simply talking over the phone.

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but if you read back there was a lot of misinformation being spread by both Microsoft and XBox 360 fans.

And none of it was WiFi or HDMI was included. As for the RRoD, yes Microsoft initally denied the scope. They have since extended warranties to 3 years, upgraded and redesigned the consoles, and gave users credits. Unlike the Sony PS2 problem which was go buy a new 1 suckers. So, I don't see the problem as Microsoft as much as the industry.

Misinformation could also be considered to come from Sony. Afterall their console didn't ship with dual video outputs as they said. They said that rumble wasn't important anymore when the reality was they didn't want to pay for licensing. And of course they advertised features like Linux to only cut them later after purchase. Yet you seem to be forgiving of Sony's misinformation.

As for what I was saying. The question being discussed was if the 360 can handle a single 1080p stream. You commented that US average bandwidth isn't enough to handle it. You also commented the PS3 can do multiple streams. The person at home doing digital rental only needs 1 stream. It matters not that the PS3 can do it at 5% utilization and the 360 at a higher rate of utilization. It simply matters it can be done. Which the 360 has proven capable of a single 1080p stream. Being the PS3 can do multiple streams has no bearing on the case of being capable at 1.

@BrianK

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But, don't force the rest of the world to not do something because you don't.

I never forced any such thing on anyone, why would you say such a thing? I just don't like the propaganda of many 360 vocals claiming XBox Live is superior as a fact, like many fanboys do. I rather try to provide arguments on why this shouldn't be put forward as an indisputable fact.

I don't like me having to worry about me and my gaming friends to pay extra to play together online. So for me the PSN is definately superior, free to anyone with internet access, for the bulk of first party games lag free, much more flexibility for developers (like LittleBigPlanet or like Gabe Newell explained for Portal 2), etc, etc.

I think the bulk of 360 fans really pay extra for XBox Live to be able to play with their friends and as this is free with the PSN for you and me as well as our friends fanboys feel the need to search for reasons that justifies these extra costs and claim that for a fact XBox Live is superior due to cross game party chat...

I really don't think the bulk of people pay extra just to chat on a console. Seriously I don't think so. I and everyone I know have free messenger software running on their Blackberries, iPhones, Laptops, PDAs, etc, etc. Those allow for a lot more options and allow for a lot more flexibility than XBox Live on the XBox 360.

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Misinformation could also be considered to come from Sony. Afterall their console didn't ship with dual video outputs as they said.

The final specs were known very long before the PS3's release, so no not really.

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They said that rumble wasn't important anymore when the reality was they didn't want to pay for licensing.

Better link to an exact and correct quote in proper perspective, as I think you may be putting words into people's mouths here.

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Which the 360 has proven capable of a single 1080p stream.

Of course the 360 can decode a 1080p movie, but the PS3 is more powerful for such uses. With regard to streaming a movie in Blu-Ray quality you'll need much higher bandwidth than the average internet speed in even the country with the best quality internet connections, much much higher bandwidth and still surveys show that the bulk of people simply prefer to own their blockbuster movies on solid media.

@MikeB

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"Quote: They said that rumble wasn't important anymore when the reality was they didn't want to pay for licensing." Better link to an exact and correct quote in proper perspective, as I think you may be putting words into people's mouths here.

We all know that was the reason, don't be so argumentative. I swear that you work for the Sony Marketing/Legal department sometimes!!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

Kaz Hirai finally admitted in an interview the PS3 was designed under Ken's leadership with stereoscopic 3D and Playstation Move in mind.

I thought so and this makes sense based on all the evidence available they were looking into this direction:

A Sony demo from 2000:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mheOtyWNjV0

@MikeB

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I just don't like the propaganda of many 360 vocals claiming XBox Live is superior as a fact, like many fanboys do. I rather try to provide arguments on why this shouldn't be put forward as an indisputable fact.

PSN has come a long way. I'm glad LIVE is there. Microsoft has shown Sony where a online service could go and how to make money at it. Sony said oh yeah profits that's why we're in business we should charge too. And now if the newer features are something you want they too charge.

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I don't like me having to worry about me and my gaming friends to pay extra to play together online. So for me the PSN is definately superior,

And if that's all you care about great, you made the right choice. Others like chat, ESPN, exclusive content, and the the bulk of first party games lag free.

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I really don't think the bulk of people pay extra just to chat on a console.

You do realize that Silver, the LIVE free service, has chat and you don't need to pay for it? Gold adds Video chat.

I find LIVE superior on the little things. I find PSN messaging not as easy to use. Trophies aren't quite as consistent as achievements. XMB used to be only accessible after quitting your game, glad Sony fixed that annoyance. And when my wife plays games with me we can have two log ons at once so she has her own identy. Did Sony fix this yet? We haven't tried after it wouldn't allow it.

You claim you're just defending against the fanboys. In the process you are making yourself look like a Sony fanboy. If you really hate fanboism you are simply becoming that thing you hate.

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Better link to an exact and correct quote in proper perspective, as I think you may be putting words into people's mouths here.

This has been clearly demonstrated to you many times here. I fear quoting Sony for the upteenth time won't get you out of your fanboy denialism.

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Of course the 360 can decode a 1080p movie, but the PS3 is more powerful for such uses.

It's fanboy fapism to be smitten that the PS3 has more unused power which will never be used for this purpose. A console needs 1 stream and each does it equivently well.

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surveys show that the bulk of people simply prefer to own their blockbuster movies on solid media.

Sales show this is less important and VoD is increasing in importance. You wrongly assume this war is done. I acknowledge it's in it's infancy.

@BigD

I didn't say that the reason wasn't Sony didn't want to pay these fees. I was more referring to Lou's opinion that Sony thought rumble support isn't important at all (Why else would they have added it in the DS3 controller?!).

For example although I agree it isn't crucial for many kinds of games (I have played games with overuse implementations of this feature, for me a Tetris clone doesn't need to rumble) I don't think rumble is worthless if well implemented (for example while shooting in a FPS to the beat of the gun).

In any case rumble is optional on the PS3, so everyone can be happy.

@BrianK

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has chat and you don't need to pay for it? Gold adds Video chat

Video chat is free on the PS3 just like on my laptop...

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And when my wife plays games with me we can have two log ons at once so she has her own identy. Did Sony fix this yet? We haven't tried after it wouldn't allow it.

Of course that's technically possible if the game designers want to implement this in their game. You mean like when I play LittleBigPlanet with my wife on the PS3? She can log in with her own account (including all her customizations).

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You wrongly assume this war is done.

I think this format "war" only exists in fanboy minds. But of course the internet is growing in importance. But I could tell you this in the 80s when I was playing my fist online games (mostly chess), reading mails and downloading stuff from the internet on my good old Amiga 2000.

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Jul-2010 at 01:15 PM.

@BrianK

If you've never tried the free Video chat on the PS3, this video shows how to do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HueBb_IU-3A

@MikeB

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Video chat is free on the PS3 just like on my laptop...

The thing about the marketplace is different companies are allowed to handle their products in ways they seem to be fit. Clearly LIVE and PSN do things in different ways. Each company can make the call on what they think is best. Each consumer can choose for themselves.

You mentioned the misinformation of the 360. You seem to neglect the way Sony has handled their information this generation. Online is now one of those items. Day 1 Sony said 'come buy the PS3 online is free'. 3 years later we find out if we want all the online features we now have to pay. Sony did the same to developers. At first DLC was free. Late last year this was changed to bill developers for DLC bandwidth. Microsoft was better here. They told developers and users prior to launch what the fees would be. In fact, they improved this as they now have a family pack which halves the cost of 4 people getting online.

As Sony cuts PS2, cuts SACD, cuts Linux, cuts free online -- I hope you see why users would feel a bit of bait and switch is going on.


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Of course that's technically possible if the game designers want to implement this in their game

I can't think of a 360 online game which doesn't allow the additional players in your house to have a unique identity. (Though I haven't played all 1315+ games so there may be some.) There are Sony games which don't allow this. My point is that these little touches to ensure a consistent online experience go a long way. Allowing developers to choose is great for the developer but introduces inconsitencies for the user.

PSN initally free made sense it simply was not as fleshed out as LIVE. I think what you need to give LIVE credit for is setting the bar high. Sony saw the competition was doing online better and responded by improving the PSN.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @MikeB As Sony cuts PS2, cuts SACD, cuts Linux, cuts free online -- I hope you see why users would feel a bit of bait and switch is going on.

LOL

"PS3 - it only does everything."

*Everything* just keeps getting redefined...

I think even Sony stopped that B.S. marketing campaign, no?

@BrianK

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Online is now one of those items. Day 1 Sony said 'come buy the PS3 online is free'. 3 years later we find out if we want all the online features we now have to pay.

What do you mean? All free PSN features are still free. They said online gaming is & will remain free [this is the primary feature which matters to most gamers!]. Fanboys were sheering when Sony announced a premium service for the PS3, but were dissapointed to find out the new service had nothing to do with paying for online gaming.

Never was everything free like you have to buy online games, else most companies wouldn't make those games. Playstation Home is also still free. It is profitable to Sony and people want to enhance the experience, but it's still free (BTW it's coming out of Beta soon!) VidZone with its thousands of music videos is still free. Maybe profitable due to a commercial every now and then.

Playstation Live and various re-broadcasts such as the latest NOS news&weather reports are also still free.

Maybe you should quote the exact statement with regard to which you seem upset for me to understand your complaints regarding the PSN.

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As Sony cuts PS2, cuts SACD, cuts Linux, cuts free online -- I hope you see why users would feel a bit of bait and switch is going on.

My PS3 still runs PS2 games well (actually I read it's improving regularly through updates). They did not cut this feature at all, they only didn't include the PS2 chips in later PS3 models. There's a huge difference!

Most fanboys claimed Linux on the PS3 was completely useless, nowadays they seem to cry foul the most... Sony explained why they had to counter the hackings, most people can understand why. Had there not been abuse, it would still have been there today. Sony wanted to keep this feature, but legally had to include the option for them to remove this feature for their own protection as a company. I talked to them a long time ago, they specifically told me any form of security breach would have to be dealt with.

Super Audio CDs are also still supported, just not on the latest models due to market rejection. As it was developed by Sony and Philips, of course they would have preferred it to remain a standard. HD DVD drives for the XBox 360 cannot be bought anymore, why no turmoil about something as trivial as that from you?

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I can't think of a 360 online game which doesn't allow the additional players in your house to have a unique identity

There are plenty of games on the XBox 360 which do not allow/require this!

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK My PS3 still runs PS2 games well (actually I read it's improving regularly through updates). They did not cut this feature at all, they only didn't include the PS2 chips in later PS3 models. There's a huge difference!

As a potential new PS3 consumer, the feature is not there. So now the mantra is "It only does everything [except play PS2 games]!"

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Most fanboys claimed Linux on the PS3 was completely useless, nowadays they seem to cry foul the most... Sony explained why they had to counter the hackings, most people can understand why. Had there not been abuse, it would still have been there today. Sony wanted to keep this feature, but legally had to include the option for them to remove this feature for their own protection as a company.

The complaints are coming from the people who actually used Linux. Aren't they more important than fanboys mocking Sony for yet another fail? So now the mantra is "It only does everything [except play PS2 games or run Linux]!"

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I talked to them a long time ago, they specifically told me any form of security breach would have to be dealt with.

This right here is why everything you say is questionable. Who are you that gets to talk to Sony directly?

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Super Audio CDs are also still supported, just not on the latest models due to market rejection. As it was developed by Sony and Philips, of course they would have preferred it to remain a standard. HD DVD drives for the XBox 360 cannot be bought anymore, why no turmoil about something as trivial as that from you?

Because HD-DVD was an addon. It wasn't an original feature. What would be the point of continuing to manufacture hardware when Toshiba stopped backing HD-DVD? I also don't recall reading that the feature is disabled so that even if you had the addon that it would no longer function. MS never 'disabled' the HD-DVD addon to my knowledge like Sony did with 'Other OS'.

Quote:

Quote: I can't think of a 360 online game which doesn't allow the additional players in your house to have a unique identity There are plenty of games on the XBox 360 which do not allow/require this!

How can you use 'allow/require' in that sentence like that?
Also, can you cite examples?